HVX in Europe only with two P2 cards incl.

[alpi69]

BTW i would not recommend a 24p/60i cam. SONY was smart in making its HDV cam switchable PAL-NTSC. it will sell them lots of cameras, very many lots. it is such a great feature.
but with the HVX we are stuck to one or the other. if you only shoot for the screen and DVD then go ahead and get the 24p cam. in cinemas they roll 24p and DVD-players easily convert 24p to 50i on the fly. but if you intend to distribute also to broadcasters or want to showcase an imagefilm in HD on a screen at a tradeshow some time or the other you run into troubles or go through a professional copyhouse. but that will cost you more than you save at camerapurchase.

 

[Emanuel]

Dear (co-)european fellow,
(first of all, thank you for your attention!)

As europeans that we want work and we need technology for to-do (sorry for the english but my native language is the portuguese and yours is the german, so...), we know what we speak/suffer about... And, as portuguese, my only hope is that José Barroso (the former portuguese prime-minister now the President of the European Comission = a sort of european prime-minister but not a President like yours, good american fellows) may help to change this a little bit.

P.S.: VAT is not an EU tax, but a tax by the respective countries to raise money. in denmark for example it is 25% and in Germany it is 16% which is a remarkable difference for a consumer. as a business it is actually usually cheaper to buy in the more expensive region, because the prices before tax are often lowered to stay somewhat competitive. it is a bit like in the US when you a buy a T-Shirt and it say $ 12 on the shelf and it costs $ 14.56 at the counter with tax while it is $ 13.66 in the other city.....

Unfortunately, VAT is an EU invention (Europe is not only EU) absorbed by the respective national systems of different tax rates. The drama is the situation described by you.

 

[MovieSwede]

As members of european union we pay the VAT in the country we buy the product. So if you want german VAT buy the product in germany. No additional VAT is added.

 

[alpi69]

no we had VAT long before we joined the EU (or EG then). it was invented in the 70s to raise extra money. at that time the economy throughout europe was booming so it was not a big deal as it is now. in germany they plan to raise it from 16 to 18% now and what a stir these 2 percents created is ridiculous. but that is off topic so let´s just leave it alone, ok!?

on a positive note i read on the german pana site the release was "winter 2005".
on the nordic pana site is say FALL 2005!!
http://panasonic-broadcast.dk/index...9B84D8643F16D&pid=11481&catid=4283&ClassID=69

 

[Robert_Niemann]

[T]here are 23 independent Panasonic marketing companies in Europe. Each and every one of them is likely free to set their own marketing strategy, and to offer bundles etc. [...] t looks like there will be many possibilities for Europeans to have some choices.

Unfortunately, I have to say, that you, Barry and cici, are not right by saying such things. Here in Europe there is a difference between Panasonic AND Panasonic Broadcast Europe. Panasonic ONLY sells the consumer products, while Panasonic Broadcast Europe cares about the professional ones. The HVX200 will be sold ONLY by Panasonic Broadcast Europe. And there are no 23 independent Panasonic Broadcast marketing companies in Europe, but only one. That means, if Panasonic Broadcast decides, that there will be only a P2 bundle, then there will be only that. And for now they have decided it that way, trust me. So please go on making pressure (to Panasonic Broadcast Europe)!

 

[Robert_Niemann]

The representative from Panasonic Broadcast Europe told me, that even now they already have around 4000 HVX200 advance bookings from many different dealers. So from his point of view: Why should we deliver the HVX without P2 and for low price?

 

[alpi69]

yes, that makes sense. still they should offer the non-P2 option until P2 has developped an accepted workflow. the camera is aimed at the low-budget market and should not be used as a "cheap way" to make high budget productions. anyway in my opinion......

i will attend the broadcast show in munich Nov 10th and will ask a few uncomfortable questions. let´s see what they say. i will also present them the anti-720p vibe in munich (http://www.vcm-markt.de//geraete_details.php?geraete_id=2674 .. in german, sorry). they will probably answer "it can do 1080i" but then they will have to tell me how that is achieved and why it would be better than SONY and Canon.

i suggest whoever is interested in this cam in europe should do something to show them we do not want 4GB cards that are now expensive and tomorrow collecting dust.

i have 2 and 4GB HDs lying around here that costed a fortune in their time. only at that time we couldn´t imagine fast 400GB disks. but we can now imagine 32GB P2 media.....so why buy 4GB for the price of 32GB?

i might order at globalmediapro.com.......sigh

 

[petelms]

I just can't f****** believe it, if this is true!!!! :angry: This is very very very sad thing and very very very bad marketing strategy from Panasonic. I would never have believed that it would come to this. So, Panasonic have already decided what recording style is to be used with this camera. So sad. Come on, not everyone can afford those P2-cards and there are other options!

THIS IS RIDICULOUS REALLY! :angry: I'm feeling really really angry and disappointed at the moment. I've been waiting for this camera so long, as we all have.

I hope this is just a really bad joke and I'm going to wake a from a bad dream soon. :undecided

 

[Robert_Niemann]

About the price: When we met the representative, my friend aked him, what the following words of the press release mean: "The AG-HVX200 will be available [...] at suggested list price below 10,000 Euros including 2 8GB P2 cards." The representative has not given a definite answer, so my friend sayd to him, that 9,000 Euros would sound good. The representative agreed. So maybe here in Germany you will get the HVX for around 10,440 Euros (9,000 + 16 % VAT) - that is a difference to 5,500 Dollars, right?

 

[Osmicata]

if that is true about the budle-only option that is quite bad and super frustrating for the european indies. It practically means that people who could afford to buy only the camera and work through firestores or likes before the drop of the P2 cards prices now would have simply to wait for the whole bundle to get down as a price, which might eventually happen only when there is some significant drop in the p2 price; my best guess would be at least an year!! this changes the whole anticipation attitide. Pity.

 

[mikkowilson]

Agreed.

I think teh HVX is a sweet camera. Right now I have the cash I could drop on one to replace teh MiniDV cam I just sold, then I'd get P2 cards next year.

If Panny Europe do sell only the bundle, then are makign a HUGE mistake, not only are they effectivly selling HDV cameras (as someone pointed out) but they are going to hurt their salves of bigger cmaeras a little as thsi camera is considered an elitist camera.
Sony's pitch at the moment is "HD for everyone" ..the way panasonic europe is goign at this, it might as well be "HDV for everyone"

I think the folks over at Focus have a prety good reason to be pissed too, that one of their business partners is sffecticly totally screwing them over in a huge market.

Image if Sony, JVC, or Canon only sold their cameras with a bundle of 100 MiniDV tapes that you had to pay for.. unlikly? hells yeah.

- Mikko

 

[Darkline]

Hi Barry,

Thanks for all the time you put into forums like these btw.

I have a quick question, you say that PAL model can only gou tp to 50p in 720 mode. I was under the impression that it was 1080 that was restricted to 25p/50i. But into 720 mode it would still shoot all the way up to 60p?

If not, I'm gutted as I was really looking forward to using the 60p slo-mo.

 

[jochem]

I thought it over and am actually not that concerned any more. I know the people who would buy the HVX, they are called small timers and have and always had a budget around the €5000 mark. Just like the PD150 time etc. If panasonic europe really decides to f&* them by saying: yeah, well just come back when you can afford it! There will definitely be a lack of selling of PAL cams, at least for the first 6 months. That would be disastrous for a release of an innovative cam like the HVX200. They'll give in after the first or so month, wanna bet?

 

[Emanuel]

Hi Barry,

Thanks for all the time you put into forums like these btw.

I have a quick question, you say that PAL model can only gou tp to 50p in 720 mode. I was under the impression that it was 1080 that was restricted to 25p/50i. But into 720 mode it would still shoot all the way up to 60p?

If not, I'm gutted as I was really looking forward to using the 60p slo-mo.

I'm not Barry, as you know but as you can follow in threads/posts like this (Barry's answer to my questions, for instance), you can easy understand that 25p/50i doesn't allow more than 50 into 720p mode. Slower motion only for 24p/60i (720p, of course). That's why is my bet on HVX 24P/60i unit camera-only $5,499 bundle (instead of 25p/50i PAL regions version).

<PS> Not only for that reason, but it helps...

 

[jochem]

How can you be so fixated on 60p instead of 50p? if you want nice slowmotion, get a 16mm cam or a varicam thingy. Hold your 'wishful thinking'.
I'd be psyched already if I would get 50p in my hands man! :evil:

 

[Emanuel]

I thought it over and am actually not that concerned any more. I know the people who would buy the HVX, they are called small timers and have and always had a budget around the €5000 mark. Just like the PD150 time etc. If panasonic europe really decides to f&* them by saying: yeah, well just come back when you can afford it! There will definitely be a lack of selling of PAL cams, at least for the first 6 months. That would be disastrous for a release of an innovative cam like the HVX200.

jochem, I'm with you! :thumbup:

 

[Emanuel]

24p/60i instead of 25p/50i (only some reasons)

24p/60i instead of 25p/50i (only some reasons)

How can you be so fixated on 60p instead of 50p? if you want nice slowmotion, get a 16mm cam or a varicam thingy. Hold your 'wishful thinking'.
I'd be psyched already if I would get 50p in my hands man! :evil:

jochem, I'm not with you! :thumbdown

<PS> Some reasons:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=23&pp=10

Nothing wrong with the format, but to go theatrical you have to convert. And after the conversion you'll definitely see the difference between 24p and 25p-converted-to-24p:
- There's slomo in it that makes it look less "real" (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- There are sound problems: Either you get pitch-shifting artifacts (really nasty) or the voices are a quarter note deeper, which is very noticably subconsiously: Tiny men sound like Pavarotti and slender female models sound like Dame Edna (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- If you're going the route of keeping the speed, at which point there are no sound issues, there are major sharpness issues or the image "jumps" every second.

That's what's wrong.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about: pitch-shifting adds artifacts: either it's some "stuttering" or flanging. I've never heard a really good pitch-shifter so far. Plus this still means that you have 4% slo-mo. And we've discussed+mostly agreed before that 26fps-for-24fps adds some "otherworldy-ness" to the footage. Well imagine having this through all of your movie - it will completely change the perception. With 24fps-converted-to-25fps (the "true-and-tested method"), you have the opposite effect that everything is a bit faster, which makes the viewer more attentive - can't really compare the two. Conversions from 25p to 24p are actually much less common, and they don't look right, unfortunately. That's why it's important that the pal-hvx has 24p among other framerates, like the arri.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=29&pp=10

Have any of you tried slowing down 25p to 24p and actually seen the results? Well I have, and it sure ain't pretty. I did a promotional video on the Pal dvx100 in 25p and had to downconvert it to ntsc 24P. I had to pay $300 for the conversion in a pro post house, and the results even on hardware conversion where a lot worse than on the native 25P. So please try it first ntsc guys. Than you'll see what we are talking about.

 

[delaro]

if we, european customers, want to buy the ntsc model, i think that there is no big problems about that. televisions are ntsc compatible in majority here. the only problem we may encounter is the lower definition in sd. but hdv is the same. we ll have better slow motion too. lower price even if they finally sell the cam alone in europe. and if we really want a pal output, we can now easily find softwares to do that.
and panasonic will have a lot of hvx200 pal bundles in their arms.
i really don t understand if it s true, because hvx200 is the z1/hd100 competitor.
people will go back to dvx100b or z1 and pana will never sell them p2 cards anymore in the future. if i buy the hvx200 alone, i will for sure buy p2 cards later, maybe this year. but if they push me to buy another cam .... hey hey mister pana, if you want to sell it to big productions they will probably have enough money to rent or buy bigger cams, but if you are looking for little structures too, i think you might reconsider this bundle aspect, it s too expensive for them ....
IF IT S CONFIRMED BUY NTSC!!

 

[Emanuel]

The representative from Panasonic Broadcast Europe told me, that even now they already have around 4000 HVX200 advance bookings from many different dealers. So from his point of view: Why should we deliver the HVX without P2 and for low price?

Right, Robert! We follow the same dictionary! That's why HVX 24P/60i unit camera-only $5,499 bundle is an european filmmaking affordable way!

 

[Darkline]

If you want wishful thinking, how about this...

The PAL cameras codec limits it to a 25p stream - i get th, howver the CCD is obviously capable of shooting and being scanned at a rate of 60p. So in theory you could have a mode that scanned the CCD's at 60p but recorded the information into an already slo-mo'd 25p stream.