HVX in Europe only with two P2 cards incl.

Well folks.. I hate to ad fuel to this fire with my experience, but it's only fair to mention it...

We just had the Finnish A/V tradeshow here this past week, and sure enough Panny was there (with one of the original mockups that is familier to all of us.. in a glass case.. way to promote guys.. - There where a bunch of working XL-H1s that i had pleanty of fun plying with.. quite the switch from IBC - Canon got their camera out of the case and onto the shelf, and Panny is back behind the glass with their moddle.)

And of course I asked about avilablity and pricing.. and I was told the same thing: A Finnish Panasonic rep. told me that it will only be available with the P2 cards here in Finland. Sounded like that was the deal for all of europe (but he didn't say that, it just came across that way).
I mentioned that this was crazy, and pressed about the possibilty of busying just the camera, and he said that it might be possible.. they are still deciding on pricing. - So things could [probably will] change, but their current plan is to sell only the bundle.

Man I hate the european equipment market.. always expensive, and normally @$$$holes too.
Did you US folks know: In europe there is an adition tax (14% if i recall) on DV cameras with firewire inputs.. becuse that makes them a full deck. ...so many many cameras only have DV out [no input]! little **** liek that is why I just about always buy my gear from the US.

- Mikko
 
Each territory sets their own marketing programs. I can tell you for sure, absolutely sure, that the HVX will be available in the USA as a camera-only, and also in a bundle with 2 8gb cards, and Jan is also considering a potential bundle that would represent a lower overall cost than the 2-8gb bundle.

What Panasonic UK decides to offer is entirely up to them; the US has no say or influence on how the UK decides to market the product. U.K., Canada, New Zealand, Puerto Rico, Mexico, and dozens of others etc -- they're all autonomous territories.

I've sent an e-mail over asking for clarification, but since the release date is months away I don't know whether I should really expect an answer, it may be too soon and marketing plans may still be being decided.
 
alpi69 said:
well if this "rumour" is ture than Panasonic is selling Canons camera now.
for around 10.000 i get the XL-HD1, which is not a bad cam at all.
Click to expand...

Bah!! Did you see any XL-H1 footage? :cry:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=51063

VIDEO-like... :thumbdown NON-artistic, more suitable for TV news, events, etc., unless it's your goal!

Please, Barry (the man, Green's the colour of Hope), prepare your comparative test. Let's finish this broken myth! This is not nice, Canon, this is not...put a HD-SDI only to dumbfound or sell glass.
 
Thanks Barry.

Let's hope our overseas brothers and sisters are able to buy the camera by itself!


Although I was only in Ireland for about 3 months last year, I was shocked on how much some of the electronics cost over there. Of course, taking in consideration how the US dollar stacks up against the Euro... which it doesn't.

Steve
 
24p/60i an european affordable solution?

24p/60i an european affordable solution?

Bob Diesso said:
Thanks, Barry! Well, seems problem's solved! For the boys and girls in Europe, here's a solution:
http://www.evsonline.com/
Click to expand...

Why? Do you think HVX 25p/50i camera-only version will be available from them?

'cause $5,994.95/€4991 (10-22-2005) or $5,499/€4577 HVX 24p/60i unit + $2,000/€1665 Firestore (at present; in March/April '06, who knows what currency conversion will be?) is less than €10000/$12,000 + VAT (in Portugal, we have 21% plus) for the HVX200 25p/50i 8GB P2 cards package.

The 24p/60i version is and will be a still better offer.

The (only?) question is:
(A) What happens if we buy a HVX200 24p/60i version and use it in PAL regions?

(AA) I ask again: any problems with 24p (60i) shooting in PAL land? Flickering problems when shooting under fluorescent lights? In affirmative case, is it possible to use a 1/50 shutter to correct this? Have you an answer, Barry?

(B) Even more slow motion effect in 720p (60 to 24p vs 50 to 25p), isn't it?

key (for american users):
VAT = value added tax (european union members tax)
 
Lets not longer speculate if the HVX will be available with or without P2 cards in Europe.
There is hype and speculation going on for more then one year!, and no one have seen one minute material shot with this camera, we don´t know anything about the chips, the resolution, the lens etc. We don´t know when it will arrive in the shops in Europe, and I am sure the marketing department will inform us if they are ready to launch the thing...
 
xray..
I have seen both recorded and live feed form the camera at IBC (and guesing by your location, you possibly did too?) But I agree, save on teh speculation. Though in this case i'm rather trygin to push teh point that if the EU dealers anr't plannign on selling just the camera, they SHOULD (and the more ppl talk about this, there more chance there is of having an effect.)

I love your Sig BTW.

- Mikko
 
I wish I didn't have to speculate, but if I want to buy this camera next year, I want to know 'now' if I will be able to afford it. I don't think it is too much asked for. I'm not gonna hold €5000 and then find out it'll be €10000:(
 
mikkowilson said:
and the more ppl talk about this, there more chance there is of having an effect.)
Click to expand...
Only if you talk to the right people, or where the right people can hear you. If nobody from the local panasonic marketing office reads this forum, then your efforts will be wasted. However, a direct e-mail to a Panasonic UK customer representative, or a quick chat with whoever is your largest Panasonic dealer over there, can do worlds towards making progress.

Target your efforts, focus your energies, and you'll have the most impact you can.
 
I'm sure in this very moments the first HVX200s are running from the production-line. Why? Because Jan says in this forum that she'll have a finished HVX200 in her hands on november 8th and until then, a dozen of cameras will have been produced to calibrate all production elements and to correct the last leaks in production. It's only 18 days from now, she's talking about, so I'm sure the first HVX200s are already coming out of the oven in these days while we are still speculating.

Switzerland has it's independent Panasonic enterprise (John Lay Electronics), so I'm sure many other PAL-countries will have too and if 1 PAL country decides to sell only bundles, this won't mean that others will have to follow. So just buy your "only-cam-no-fries-no-coke" in the PAL country or from the internet enterprise that will accept this very reasonable whish.

Check out the Panasonic PAL-countries' list for HVX prices here (it's too early yet... but we can check every now and then....) :
http://panasonic.co.jp/company/en/gp_0005.html
 
Excellent research, cici!

So yes, there are 23 independent Panasonic marketing companies in Europe. Each and every one of them is likely free to set their own marketing strategy, and to offer bundles etc.

Obviously it would be best if you could buy from your own country, through your local authorized dealer, but it looks like there will be many possibilities for Europeans to have some choices.
 
and I live in Basel - I can walk within 15 minutes to France or to Germany :) (they will even refund me 15% of the taxes as I will use the camera in Switzerland... and customs take much less custom-fees)

Barry, I can't wait seeing your signature changing into:

Get the ultimate guidebook to the Panasonic DVX100 cameras: http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/dvxbook/
or get the brandnew guidebook to the Panasonic HVX200 camera: http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/hvxbook/ :thumbsup:
 
jochem said:
I wish I didn't have to speculate, but if I want to buy this camera next year, I want to know 'now' if I will be able to afford it. I don't think it is too much asked for. I'm not gonna hold €5000 and then find out it'll be €10000:(
Click to expand...

That's why I ask if the HVX 24p/60i is not an interesting european purchase...
 
Emanuel said:
(A) What happens if we buy a HVX200 24p/60i version and use it in PAL regions?
Click to expand...
You'd get a camera that wouldn't be compatible with your existing television system, or with any future high-def television system.

(AA) I ask again: any problems with 24p (60i) shooting in PAL land? Flickering problems when shooting under fluorescent lights? In affirmative case, is it possible to use a 1/50 shutter to correct this? Have you an answer, Barry?
Click to expand...
You could shoot 24p at 1/50 and probably take care of flicker, but you'd still be producing video that would be incompatible with your television system.

(B) Even more slow motion effect in 720p (60 to 24p vs 50 to 25p), isn't it?
Click to expand...
Yes it would be slower motion.


I would think it would be an unsatisfying experience to buy the NTSC version for use in PAL territory. You'd probably be much happier if you were able to get the PAL version.
 
Barry_Green said:
You'd get a camera that wouldn't be compatible with your existing television system, or with any future high-def television system.


You could shoot 24p at 1/50 and probably take care of flicker, but you'd still be producing video that would be incompatible with your television system.


Yes it would be slower motion.


I would think it would be an unsatisfying experience to buy the NTSC version for use in PAL territory. You'd probably be much happier if you were able to get the PAL version.
Click to expand...

Barry, I hate to say this but what you describe is the kind of contrived marketing that Sony orchestrates. It's one BIG reason why I virtually stopped buying Sony, because at every turn I found there were either dead ends or only high cost options. It's very concerning to see Panasonic on a similar path. It's obvious what a problem is being created for the European community. If what's you say is true, with twenty-three independent sales entities operating in Europe, it suonds quite chaotic. Now's the time to change to a more customer-favorable course BEFORE the HVX comes to market.
 
24p/60i an european affordable solution?

24p/60i an european affordable solution?

Thanks Barry for your attention!

If you didn't know, you already know that here, in Europe, as well in Portugal, you have several not fanatic but fans of your work (and your tech guru talent!).

We are following your interventions and the most important justification to adhere for Panasonic brand (all of us, we are/were Sony users - SONY rules by here - probably until 2005 and you are one of the reasons of that: a Pana value added, not tax) or even dvxuser.com is the warranty of your participation (not forget the relevance of your dvxbook/hvxbook work) and your opinions.

Your POV (the essence of storytelling).

And it is a film school lecturer that speaks. And I'm not alone, as you can figure out. Who knows, one day, we might have you on our Master Class about Digital Filmmaking here in Europe.



Well, since last April, I could follow the discussion, for instance:


http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=23&pp=10

Edelweiss said:
Nothing wrong with the format, but to go theatrical you have to convert. And after the conversion you'll definitely see the difference between 24p and 25p-converted-to-24p:
- There's slomo in it that makes it look less "real" (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- There are sound problems: Either you get pitch-shifting artifacts (really nasty) or the voices are a quarter note deeper, which is very noticably subconsiously: Tiny men sound like Pavarotti and slender female models sound like Dame Edna (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- If you're going the route of keeping the speed, at which point there are no sound issues, there are major sharpness issues or the image "jumps" every second.

That's what's wrong.
Click to expand...
Edelweiss said:
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about: pitch-shifting adds artifacts: either it's some "stuttering" or flanging. I've never heard a really good pitch-shifter so far. Plus this still means that you have 4% slo-mo. And we've discussed+mostly agreed before that 26fps-for-24fps adds some "otherworldy-ness" to the footage. Well imagine having this through all of your movie - it will completely change the perception. With 24fps-converted-to-25fps (the "true-and-tested method"), you have the opposite effect that everything is a bit faster, which makes the viewer more attentive - can't really compare the two. Conversions from 25p to 24p are actually much less common, and they don't look right, unfortunately. That's why it's important that the pal-hvx has 24p among other framerates, like the arri.
Click to expand...


http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=27&pp=10

SergejIvanovits said:
Please explain me how do you think you gonna edit your 24p footage on your Pal equipment. I guess you better move to a NTSC land or just buy NTSC equipments.
Click to expand...


http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=33434&page=29&pp=10

SPZ said:
With any NLE system. If the camera supports 24P, than it can be used to record the output from the NLE. As for monitoring, my plasma will do. It's pal and Ntsc compatible (1080/50i and 1080/60i compatible)

Have any of you tried slowing down 25p to 24p and actually seen the results? Well I have, and it sure ain't pretty. I did a promotional video on the Pal dvx100 in 25p and had to downconvert it to ntsc 24P. I had to pay $300 for the conversion in a pro post house, and the results even on hardware conversion where a lot worse than on the native 25P. So please try it first ntsc guys. Than you'll see what we are talking about.
Click to expand...


So:

[1]

Barry_Green said:
You'd get a camera that wouldn't be compatible with your existing television system, or with any future high-def television system.
Click to expand...
Barry_Green said:
You could shoot 24p at 1/50 and probably take care of flicker, but you'd still be producing video that would be incompatible with your television system.
Click to expand...
Will the software Atlantis

http://www.dvfilm.com/atlantis/

(or any other solution - which?)

http://cineform.com/products/AspectHDPPro.htm

«I was knocked out that I could choose to transform to true 24p during capture - or could import 25p and then export and transform to 24p. This means I can create two solutions in post - one to transfer to film, and one dedicated for broadcast.» Peter Lancett (XlitherFilms), Filmmaker in the UK.

[OK! It seems to be for HDV; the solution wouldn't be here. Or will it be around here?]

solve the problem?

[2]

Barry_Green said:
Yes it would be slower motion.
Click to expand...
And is not a great (FORGOTTEN) advantage? A good pro argument for the HVX 24p/60i instead of the HVX 25p/50i offer?

[3]

Barry_Green said:
I would think it would be an unsatisfying experience to buy the NTSC version for use in PAL territory. You'd probably be much happier if you were able to get the PAL version.
Click to expand...
The LAST question is:
$5,499/€4577 HVX 24p/60i unit + $2,000/€1665 Firestore is less than €10000/$12,000 + VAT* (in Portugal, we have 21% plus*) for the HVX200 25p/50i 8GB P2 cards package. The 24p/60i version is and will be a still better offer. Circa 50% less! And is not a major POV (point of view)? I've been reading post concernings about a few hundreds of bucks!? Where are you european or PAL guys? It's our pocket! The future of your activity; of your movies/films**.

If you Barry (or any others) can answer the previous questions, there is "the" only problem that we need confirm before the US (24p/60i) purchase:


Barry_Green said:
You could shoot 24p at 1/50 and probably take care of flicker, but you'd still be producing video that would be incompatible with your television system.
Click to expand...
Probably...probably...
OK! Barry, is it any possibility to confirm this important issue before the pre-order of the $5,499 bundle?



Thanks in advance! All the european 24p/60i believers appreciate your help!



key (not for only american users):
* VAT = value added tax (european union members tax)
** in arthouse language
 
well, europe is not chaotic only because most major companies have a marketing entity in each country. It is not a bad idea to aim marketing at a certain region. after all most of these regional offices work in different languages. that is where it already starts. now add different taxsystems, different media-landscapes and different customer-needs and you are understanding why they all (from Sony to Microsoft to BMW) set themselves up like that.
thankfully we have the EU and we can choose easily where to buy. After all at least Panasonic gives a European guarantee, meaning i can buy in the UK and repair in Austria.
Running a business i even get the VAT back in any EU country. meaning a cam for 6.000 actually is only around 5.000. So if Spain chooses to sell the cam alone or with 4GB packages, i can get it there and it will cost about the same before tax. Of course Panasonic still runs its guideline marketing centralized (so you can´t buy the cam in US for 2.500 and in Europe for 15.000) and if they really only provide their regional distributors with 16GB packages then we get a problem.
I do not know if EVS sells PAL cams. I know BH does, but it is not really cheap. The problem is the import tax in the EU which adds about 20% on cams that are not built in the EU (it then does not matter if you buy it in US or Japan or NZ). this import tax is lower on pure camcorders (no DV in!) while tools like DVX or HVX are considered camcorders AND decks!! silly, huh.

anyway: we europeans need to stand up and go to the local presentations of the HVX and tell them of the demand for a cam WITHOUT P2 cards. it doesn´t help to complain here, because JAn seems the only Panasonic rep here.

P.S.: VAT is not an EU tax, but a tax by the respective countries to raise money. in denmark for example it is 25% and in Germany it is 16% which is a remarkable difference for a consumer. as a business it is actually usually cheaper to buy in the more expensive region, because the prices before tax are often lowered to stay somewhat competitive. it is a bit like in the US when you a buy a T-Shirt and it say $ 12 on the shelf and it costs $ 14.56 at the counter with tax while it is $ 13.66 in the other city.....
 
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