HPX250 Arrived Today

[Dino]

We received our HPX250 today and it has very good resolution, is cleaner than our HPX2700, much cleaner than our HPX170. 30db gain will get into chroma noise, but very fine noise. Camera is certainly larger than our 170, but not much heavier. Lens reach is amazing, lots of assignable user buttons, LCD display like the AF100, good resolution. Handles highlights well compared to other Panasonic palmcorders, better than AF100. Has the wheel for frame rate, shutter, Syncro Scan like the AF100. Iris ring is nice, but no stop at each end, therefore no markings. Lens is Panasonic branded, not Leica. Didn't see any obvious CA, ramping wasn't too obvious, just an incredible zoom ratio for a palmcorder.

Some nice additions to menus, but not as comprehensive as EX1. DRS still doesn't work in 1080/24P, skew seems to be pretty minimal, even at full zoom. I like the additonal threaded holes in the handle, 1/4-20 and 3/8", camera has audio limiter and auto level modes, two different internal tone levels, easy access to see ch. 3 and 4 meters. H Phase for genlock. Waveform/vector displays look like those from HPX300/370.

Just a quick look, but overall, it seems like a very powerful camera in a palmcorder package, especially using AVC-Intra 100. It's comparable to an EX1 at the front end, but with a much better codec, plus TC in/out and genlock, HDMI out. Only USB 2.0, not 3.0.
White balance shows color temperature, happily.

On edit: I'm actually seeing chroma noise at lower gain levels, such as 12db, just a different look than CCD's.

 

[inefab]

Hi,
When you'll have the time, i'm curious about its night performances ? and about its two P.A.P filters...
Thank's!

 

[robfilms]

We received our HPX250 today and it has very good resolution, is cleaner than our HPX2700, much cleaner than our HPX170. 30db gain will get into chroma noise, but very fine noise. Camera is certainly larger than our 170, but not much heavier. Lens reach is amazing, lots of assignable user buttons, LCD display like the AF100, good resolution. Handles highlights well compared to other Panasonic palmcorders, better than AF100. Has the wheel for frame rate, shutter, Syncro Scan like the AF100. Iris ring is nice, but no stop at each end, therefore no markings. Lens is Panasonic branded, not Leica. Didn't see any obvious CA, ramping wasn't too obvious, just an incredible zoom ratio for a palmcorder.

Some nice additions to menus, but not as comprehensive as EX1. DRS still doesn't work in 1080/24P, skew seems to be pretty minimal, even at full zoom. I like the additonal threaded holes in the handle, 1/4-20 and 3/8", camera has audio limiter and auto level modes, two different internal tone levels, easy access to see ch. 3 and 4 meters. H Phase for genlock. Waveform/vector displays look like those from HPX300/370.

Just a quick look, but overall, it seems like a very powerful camera in a palmcorder package, especially using AVC-Intra 100. It's comparable to an EX1 at the front end, but with a much better codec, plus TC in/out and genlock, HDMI out. Only USB 2.0, not 3.0.
White balance shows color temperature, happily.

On edit: I'm actually seeing chroma noise at lower gain levels, such as 12db, just a different look than CCD's.

dino-

thanks for the detailed notes.

i look forward to your assessment of the hpx250 in the field and the resulting image quality.

thanks in advance for the time and effort.

be well

rob
smalltalk productions

 

[David Saraceno]

Got ours on Friday

Minimal testing.

But have to agree with Dino's observations as well.

 

[Dino]

I have looked at the two PAP settings, camera comes with PAP Type 2 as default("Type 2 suppresses 3D adaptation effects".) The difference in light sensitivity between the two settings is about 15 IRE. I have not been able to see a difference as far as 3D noise reduction processing yet. I need to spend more time testing, but assume it's similar to the HPX370 PAP settings, noise reduction artifacts.

The lens ramps from wide at f1.6 to f3.4 at full zoom, but I don't see much portholing and obvious CA seems to not be present at any focal length. Really like that there are VF and LCD markers for 2:35 and 2:39. LCD display looks plus green and 3200 Preset is also looking a bit green out of the camera. May need to tweak chroma phase a bit. Irritated that DRS still doesn't work with 1080/24P.

I need to look at this camera side by side with our HPX170 and EX1, but so far it seems to be an EX1 contender except for noise at higher gain, and offers a superior codec by far. I like the EVF better than in the AF100, which looks softer and darker.

 

[robfilms]

I have looked at the two PAP settings, camera comes with PAP Type 2 as default("Type 2 suppresses 3D adaptation effects".) The difference in light sensitivity between the two settings is about 15 IRE. I have not been able to see a difference as far as 3D noise reduction processing yet. I need to spend more time testing, but assume it's similar to the HPX370 PAP settings, noise reduction artifacts.

The lens ramps from wide at f1.6 to f3.4 at full zoom, but I don't see much portholing and obvious CA seems to not be present at any focal length. Really like that there are VF and LCD markers for 2:35 and 2:39. LCD display looks plus green and 3200 Preset is also looking a bit green out of the camera. May need to tweak chroma phase a bit. Irritated that DRS still doesn't work with 1080/24P.

I need to look at this camera side by side with our HPX170 and EX1, but so far it seems to be an EX1 contender except for noise at higher gain, and offers a superior codec by far. I like the EVF better than in the AF100, which looks softer and darker.

dino-

again thanks for sharing your insights.

in your very limited time with the hpx250 any guesses as to what the "usable" gain range might be?

+9bd? +12bd? +15bd? +18db?

i know this is a very general question which is dependent on a myriad of factors affecting the usable gain range.

since i don't have the camera...yet...i was wondering if you had a gut feeling.

any and all thoughts are appreciated.

be well

rob
smalltalk productions

 

[Dino]

dino-

in your very limited time with the hpx250 any guesses as to what the "usable" gain range might be?

+9bd? +12bd? +15bd? +18db?

rob
smalltalk productions

I find the 250 to be very similar to the EX1 in noise, IF PAP setting 2 is used, which makes the camera a stop slower than the EX. Using PAP setting 1, camera is much closer in sensitivity, but noisier. It's hard to overcome the 1/3" chip vs. 1/2" disadvantage. Our HPX2700 is faster still, but it's 2/3" and a native 720 CCD chipe set. I also compared the HPX170. My thoughts are that I prefer CCD noise to CMOS noise, the latter seems to have more chroma noise and a different grain structure. Same applies for the AF100. although I find that ISO 1200 looks pretty decent with the AF100, certainly 800 is good.

I pretty much think that 9db is where I would want to max out the 250 or EX1, probably same for 2700 and HPX170. Chroma noise at 12db and higher kill the 250 and EX1 for me. I have never minded luma noise very much, and love the look of Super 16 grain, but chroma noise is a problem. My recollection of an F3, last time I shot with it, was that it was very clean relatively(not Alexa clean).

I think the lesson is that larger sensor cameras have an advantage, given larger pixel sites to go with them(ie; the same resolution, just bigger sensor).

 

[videoatlanta]

Really great of you to post all of this. Thank you.
Now how does it handle PANNING!!!!! Any better then the 370?
Details hold up when panning? I suspect not as panny states it has the guts of the 370 inside it.

 

[Dino]

Was just reviewing some footage shot at a winery by a client today. The detail in the wide shots of vineyards is fantastic. An HVX200 or HPX170 just can't resolve this kind of detail. I did not see detail issues when panning to a resolve. I like the highlight handling better than any previous Panasonic palmcorder(or HPX500) I've seen.

 

[Barry_Green]

Was just reviewing some footage shot at a winery by a client today. The detail in the wide shots of vineyards is fantastic. An HVX200 or HPX170 just can't resolve this kind of detail. I did not see detail issues when panning to a resolve. I like the highlight handling better than any previous Panasonic palmcorder(or HPX500) I've seen.

a) agreed, the sharpness is outstanding.

b) the knee/highlight handling is quite different on the 250 from any other handheld. I had to totally rewrite that section of the book. All prior AG series (except the 370) had the same basic image processing, but the 370 and 250 are different. The knee and the DRS are totally different. Plus, you can now use the knee in cinegamma modes on the HPX250, that's a first. And -- get this -- after staring at the monitor until I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me, I'm now pretty much convinced that cinelike-D is the *quietest* of the gamma curves. Previously it's been one of the noisiest, and it didn't have any adjustable knee, so ... it was a tradeoff as to whether to use it. Now it's quiet, it's smooth, it has the widest latitude, and it has knee adjustability. So, yeah... agreed with what you're saying.

 

[Mark Smith]

Anecdotal:
While making a rental return at ABEL cine today, I checked out the camera display in the showroom. THey had an FS 100, F3, HPX 250, AF100, all aimed at a lit display.

What I noticed after a bit of playing around and comparing images was that the 250 had the best highlight handling of them all, by a significant amount.
Surprising was the solarization in blowing highlights of the f3.

The 250 seems like quite the value for the price point. and it shows that panasonic can produce a camera at this price point with AVC I . Hint hint now apply this to the af 100.

 

[ullanta]

a) agreed, the sharpness is outstanding.

b) the knee/highlight handling is quite different on the 250 from any other handheld. I had to totally rewrite that section of the book. All prior AG series (except the 370) had the same basic image processing, but the 370 and 250 are different. The knee and the DRS are totally different. Plus, you can now use the knee in cinegamma modes on the HPX250, that's a first. And -- get this -- after staring at the monitor until I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me, I'm now pretty much convinced that cinelike-D is the *quietest* of the gamma curves. Previously it's been one of the noisiest, and it didn't have any adjustable knee, so ... it was a tradeoff as to whether to use it. Now it's quiet, it's smooth, it has the widest latitude, and it has knee adjustability. So, yeah... agreed with what you're saying.

Hey, does this extend to the AC160 as well, or is it related to the 370 "beck end"?

 

[DBP]

a) agreed, the sharpness is outstanding.

b) the knee/highlight handling is quite different on the 250 from any other handheld. I had to totally rewrite that section of the book. All prior AG series (except the 370) had the same basic image processing, but the 370 and 250 are different. The knee and the DRS are totally different. Plus, you can now use the knee in cinegamma modes on the HPX250, that's a first. And -- get this -- after staring at the monitor until I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me, I'm now pretty much convinced that cinelike-D is the *quietest* of the gamma curves. Previously it's been one of the noisiest, and it didn't have any adjustable knee, so ... it was a tradeoff as to whether to use it. Now it's quiet, it's smooth, it has the widest latitude, and it has knee adjustability. So, yeah... agreed with what you're saying.

Does that apply to the HPX300 as well, or just the 370?

 

[Barry_Green]

Hey, does this extend to the AC160 as well, or is it related to the 370 "beck end"?

I can't emphasize this enough -- the AC160 is *not* the same as the HPX250. They share the same shell, and the same sensors, but everything after the sensors is different. So, no, none of the changes I mentioned are applicable to the AC160.

The AC160 is a small-chip, fixed-lens AF100.
The HPX250 is a fixed-lens HPX370.

They're totally different animals inside. Even though they have the same menu items, they look completely different. If you put an HPX250 and an AC160 on the same monitor and A/B'd them, you'd be surprised at just how different they look, even though they'd be running the exact same scene file settings and have the same sensors. They're just very different. I think the AC160 has the more pleasing color palette, but the HPX250 has the different and I think more overall usable knee and DRS handling.

 

[Barry_Green]

Does that apply to the HPX300 as well, or just the 370?

Haven't seen a 300 in a long time, so I don't remember. But I would bet that it does; I think the only substantive difference between the 300 and the 370 was the sensor block, but again, I don't remember and don't have any way to test.

 

[DBP]

I think the AC160 has the more pleasing color palette, but the HPX250 has the different and I think more overall usable knee and DRS handling.

Interesting. I figured it'd be the other way around with the color palette, due to the 10bit color on the HPX250.

 

[Dino]

I've now shot with our HPX250 on 5 shoots. Three green screen days, exterior architectural, table top product, live webcast lit with Kino Flos. The colors in Cinelike Matrix really pop, even with chroma reduced a bit. My DIT and gaffer were very impressed with the product shot images we were getting--fantastic resolution, client pleasing saturation. Flesh tones were also very complimentary. The exteriors, including backlit scenes and hot sky with trees in the foreground were handled better than any Panasonic palmcorder I've seen. No chroma clipping, just overexposed items going white, like a film camera or higher end video camera.

The 22X lens blows me away--super wide and incredible reach. Only weirdness is camera going into and out of macro automatically when within MOD. Have only seen a trace of chromatic aberration once, and only slight and at the edge of frame.

I'm finding the 250 in PAP level 2 to be slower than our HPX2700, so 0db is really like -6db vs. 0db on a 2700. PAP level 1 would be about the same as the 2700 sensitivity wise. I had the 250 and 2700 side by side on a shoot, and the 250 was sharper, quieter(I had to put the 2700 in -3db to get closer to SN ratio).

Overall, every client and crew person who's seen this camera in action is very impressed so far.

 

[Danny1280]

Interesting. I figured it'd be the other way around with the color palette, due to the 10bit color on the HPX250.

Yes, I had the same hope. Glad to hear Dino's color comments. Not a lot of footage out so far, but what I've seen hasn't blown me away with the richness of colors. Totally ready to be proved wrong, because very interested in this cam.

 

[Barry_Green]

10 bits and 4:2:2 are of course glorious things. But they don't affect the color palette, they affect the sharpness and gradient capabilities of the recordings. The actual color palette itself is just different between the two cameras. Not wildly so, but -- different.

Some people may prefer the HPX250's color palette over the AC160's. Some may prefer the AC160's over the HPX250's. I've been working with the HVX/DVX/HPX170/HMC150/HMC40/HVX200A/AC160/AC130/AF100 for so long, I'm used to its palette. The HPX300/370 and 250 are a different series of cameras, so their palette is somewhat different.

I didn't say one was "better" than the other, only that they're different and I find the AC160's palette more pleasing than that on the HPX250, but I fully acknowledge that others may find the opposite to be true.

 

[Danny1280]

Barry, if you don't mind, could you describe how they're different? I'm used to the 150's look. Would you say the 150 is more saturated, more punchy than the 250?