Like many of the users here I've been waiting to see what everyone thinks of the HPX170. I've heard about the wobble and and I've read Barry's initial reviews but since release I haven't heard much opinion on whether the HPX170 lives up to or falls short of expectations. Have there been any in-depth reviews since release or is it still too soon to say?
HPX170 Verdict?
- Thread starter shoook
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Jeff Anderson
Custom Title!
Dan Brockett is preparing to release a 32 page article outlining his transition from the 200 to the 170 on kenstone.com on Sunday.
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puredrifting
Major Contributor
It's Brockett Jeff ;-) Thanks for the plug!
Yes, Ken and I are doing the layout and tweaking it today and tomorrow and it will go live on Sunday. Lots of good images of the camera, some good comparison screen caps, etc.
As far as opinion, I am very happy with the HPX so far, it has met or surpassed my expectations. The one surprise has been at how closely I can get the HPX and HVX to match. As long as the scenes are well lit, I feel as if I could shoot two camera with the HVX and HPX and it would intercut pretty well.
HPX is slightly quieter and has a lot more detail under the candlelight scene I setup. The biggest changes are operationally, the new SDI, WFM/Vectorscope, more steps in the pedestal structure, better detail enhancement coupled with the two new focus tools make the LCD actually a useful tool now in comparison to the HVX screen. If you have an HVX and are making money with it, I wouldn't necessarily ugrade unless you are looking for a tax write off for end of the year. If you can afford it, you will enjoy it more but I did a shoot yesterday with my old HVX and I like shooting with the HVX a bit less than the HPX but the end result was pretty much the same as I am getting with the HVX. (Available light supplemented with Kinos with a lot of tracking people handheld through hallways and bedrooms as they frantically pack for a trip).
If you don't have a camera or are coming from a lesser camera, it seems to be a pretty nice unit and I would try it out and see if it is a fit for you. I am very happy that I bought one.
All details will be revealed in the article ;-)
Dan
Yes, Ken and I are doing the layout and tweaking it today and tomorrow and it will go live on Sunday. Lots of good images of the camera, some good comparison screen caps, etc.
As far as opinion, I am very happy with the HPX so far, it has met or surpassed my expectations. The one surprise has been at how closely I can get the HPX and HVX to match. As long as the scenes are well lit, I feel as if I could shoot two camera with the HVX and HPX and it would intercut pretty well.
HPX is slightly quieter and has a lot more detail under the candlelight scene I setup. The biggest changes are operationally, the new SDI, WFM/Vectorscope, more steps in the pedestal structure, better detail enhancement coupled with the two new focus tools make the LCD actually a useful tool now in comparison to the HVX screen. If you have an HVX and are making money with it, I wouldn't necessarily ugrade unless you are looking for a tax write off for end of the year. If you can afford it, you will enjoy it more but I did a shoot yesterday with my old HVX and I like shooting with the HVX a bit less than the HPX but the end result was pretty much the same as I am getting with the HVX. (Available light supplemented with Kinos with a lot of tracking people handheld through hallways and bedrooms as they frantically pack for a trip).
If you don't have a camera or are coming from a lesser camera, it seems to be a pretty nice unit and I would try it out and see if it is a fit for you. I am very happy that I bought one.
All details will be revealed in the article ;-)
Dan
Jeff Anderson
Custom Title!
Doh - sorry Dan! Fixed it! The wirless keyboard batteries were running low and skipping some letter bursts here and there!
cameralover
Member
it's interesting to me that B&H is still not allowing reviews & comments from end users on their website. I have tried submitting twice. Of must not be in their best interest in terms of sales as they must be in "damage control" mode as are everyone else who are selling this thing.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay this kind of statement is getting just ridiculous. The 170 had a minor issue with lens wobble, which for many of us was the minorest of inconveniences, but even so the company took it seriously enough to stop production and fix it, and is giving every USA owner a free fix including free shipping to and from, and every new unit has the fix in.
That's it. "damage control"? If you want to talk about damage control, you have to view it in context with the EX1, which had vignetting, paint peeling, battery life issues, soft focus issues, infrared issues, and at least two or three other things go wrong with them! There were at least a couple of recalls for these various issues.
The only things I've seen people complain about with the 170 were the wobble, which is fixed, and some mysterious "noise" thing which has been definitively proven to be nonsense. The noise signature between the 170 and the 200A is the same, as shown by a few of us who've posted side-by-side footage. So let's stop this hyperbole about hysteria and damage control and whatnot, because it's just not accurate and it's amounting to nothing more than FUD - fear, undertainty, and doubt. And there's no basis for it.
rawrdocumentary
Member
Just got my 170 in Thursday.
Spec Comm did their lens fix to it before it shipped out and I couldn't be happier with it.
Love the form, feel, ergonomics and images its giving..I was pretty hesitant to get it at first
but I'm really glad I took the dive
Spec Comm did their lens fix to it before it shipped out and I couldn't be happier with it.
Love the form, feel, ergonomics and images its giving..I was pretty hesitant to get it at first
but I'm really glad I took the dive
TwistedLincoln
Veteran
Not so fast, Barry -- I heard that the HPX-170 was responsible for the onset of World War I and the deaths of millions of people worldwide. If Panasonic really cared about it's customers, it would recall the whole batch, and pay $200,000 in reparations to each of the relatives of everyone who died during WWI... :zombie_smiley:
In all seriousness, Barry is correct. I was initially frustrated by the wobble issue, mostly out of fear that the camera's resale value would go down if I didn't get the fix. But once they decided to pay for shipping both ways, pretty much all arguments against them go away-- what more can you ask for than a totally free fix?
cameralover
Member
with all due respect barry, ever since you stated 'ask me why I should even care about this', or whatever it was you said, I really haven't interpreted your opinion as being very much protective if the actual purchasers of this camera.
If I am reading everything correctly here, production on the camera has hallted, many end users are awaiting their recall instructions and the fact remains that BH is not allowing, apparently, end users the ability to post their comments about the camera. Seems a bit "damage control-ish" to me. But, I completely understand there is a lot of money riding on this product.
If I am reading everything correctly here, production on the camera has hallted, many end users are awaiting their recall instructions and the fact remains that BH is not allowing, apparently, end users the ability to post their comments about the camera. Seems a bit "damage control-ish" to me. But, I completely understand there is a lot of money riding on this product.
Where did you read that "many end users are awaiting their recall instructions?"
Once the wobble issue was identified, Panasonic provided a free fix procedure at no cost to the owners.
Barry and I disagree sometimes disagree about Final Cut Pro/Apple , but I've yet to see the guy anything but immensely knowledgeable and willing to assist those here.
If you have reservations about this cam, don't buy it. And certainly you are entitled to your opinion.
But spins on Panasonic's approach to the wobble issue using hyperbole doesn't provide much of a response to your original question, at least to me.
You asked if the cam lived up to people's expectations. The facts are that a wobble issue affected certain serial number production bundles, and Panasonic provided a fix.
As to your OP, we love this cam; it's our 3rd Panasonic HD cam; and our expectations of it were that it would perform as represented. We're busy making money with it right now and our clients love the image is produces.
That it does.
B&H's policy about user comments has no relevance to me at all. Adam's Wilt's comments do. So do Barry Green's.
Once the wobble issue was identified, Panasonic provided a free fix procedure at no cost to the owners.
Barry and I disagree sometimes disagree about Final Cut Pro/Apple , but I've yet to see the guy anything but immensely knowledgeable and willing to assist those here.
If you have reservations about this cam, don't buy it. And certainly you are entitled to your opinion.
But spins on Panasonic's approach to the wobble issue using hyperbole doesn't provide much of a response to your original question, at least to me.
You asked if the cam lived up to people's expectations. The facts are that a wobble issue affected certain serial number production bundles, and Panasonic provided a fix.
As to your OP, we love this cam; it's our 3rd Panasonic HD cam; and our expectations of it were that it would perform as represented. We're busy making money with it right now and our clients love the image is produces.
That it does.
B&H's policy about user comments has no relevance to me at all. Adam's Wilt's comments do. So do Barry Green's.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Cameralover: Have you used a 170 though? Do you have firsthand experience with it? Or are you just responding to internet hysteria?
I've got one. The "wobble" is not a big deal. It is a minor issue. Some people think it's a bigger issue, some of us think it's a non-issue. In reality, the factory has responded better than anyone could have expected -- they're doing a free fix and paying shipping both ways.
About being "protective of the purchasers" - You don't know what my involvement has been, and how many e-mails I've sent to Jan and tests that I've run and ways that I've tried to demonstrate, through footage, what the issue was. I am not going to contribute to internet hysteria over what was, in all reality in my opinion, a minor issue. DVXUser does not exist to throw gasoline on flames. But enough people were concerned about it that I took extensive time to demonstrate the situation in its worst-case example. I arranged on my own to get a 170 next to a 200 to show the absolute worst-case difference, on recorded footage, which I then split-screened and sent to Jan. Heck, I can tell you that it is probably the footage that I supplied to them that caused the factory to say "hmm, let's fix this." EVEN THOUGH I MYSELF CONSIDERED IT A PRETTY DARN MINOR ISSUE. I don't even know if I consider the issue serious enough to warrant sending the camera in; the couple of days of downtime that it would require to get mine fixed seems out of proportion, but for eventual resale value I assume I'll have to.
There are cameras with real problems out there. "Wobblegate" has to be the most blown-out-of-proportion thing I've ever seen in the history of camcorder forums. Regardless, the fix is as ideal as one could ask. I do not see room for complaint here. Everyone got exactly what they asked for.
I've got one. The "wobble" is not a big deal. It is a minor issue. Some people think it's a bigger issue, some of us think it's a non-issue. In reality, the factory has responded better than anyone could have expected -- they're doing a free fix and paying shipping both ways.
About being "protective of the purchasers" - You don't know what my involvement has been, and how many e-mails I've sent to Jan and tests that I've run and ways that I've tried to demonstrate, through footage, what the issue was. I am not going to contribute to internet hysteria over what was, in all reality in my opinion, a minor issue. DVXUser does not exist to throw gasoline on flames. But enough people were concerned about it that I took extensive time to demonstrate the situation in its worst-case example. I arranged on my own to get a 170 next to a 200 to show the absolute worst-case difference, on recorded footage, which I then split-screened and sent to Jan. Heck, I can tell you that it is probably the footage that I supplied to them that caused the factory to say "hmm, let's fix this." EVEN THOUGH I MYSELF CONSIDERED IT A PRETTY DARN MINOR ISSUE. I don't even know if I consider the issue serious enough to warrant sending the camera in; the couple of days of downtime that it would require to get mine fixed seems out of proportion, but for eventual resale value I assume I'll have to.
There are cameras with real problems out there. "Wobblegate" has to be the most blown-out-of-proportion thing I've ever seen in the history of camcorder forums. Regardless, the fix is as ideal as one could ask. I do not see room for complaint here. Everyone got exactly what they asked for.
Dino
Veteran
Many end users ARE awaiting their recall instructions. Panasonic has not fixed a
single camera that has already been delivered to an end user that I'm a aware of.
I am very confident that Panasonic will fix the cameras and very happy that they came up with parts so quickly and are willing to pay round trip freight, but I have tried twice to make an appointment with a service center and they still haven't told me which center and when, nor did they speak to turn around time.
Dino
Veteran
Barry,
You have accused me and others of hyperbole. I think you and Jan went into denial mode immediately instead of actually doing tests first. You and Jan did not have 170's in your hands, yet were dismissing myself and others. You sounded like the Iraqi PR guy who was adamant that there were "no US tanks in Baghdad", as we could see them going by in the background.
As a working DP and rental facility owner for three decades, I am very clear there was and is an issue with the majority of HPX170's, 171's and HMC150's. The facts are that this "DARN PRETTY MINOR ISSUE" or "minor inconvenience" as you've put it, stopped the Osaka production line and worldwide shipping. I'd be curious to know what constitutes a real issue in your mind? I guess if it's a Panasonic problem it has a different standard than a Sony problem.
I laud Panasonic's engineers for coming up with a fix so quickly. I am less impressed by the original attitude of the product manager and your continuing to diminish what is a real issue for so many owners, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the work you do and valuable information you provide to forum members like myself.
You have accused me and others of hyperbole. I think you and Jan went into denial mode immediately instead of actually doing tests first. You and Jan did not have 170's in your hands, yet were dismissing myself and others. You sounded like the Iraqi PR guy who was adamant that there were "no US tanks in Baghdad", as we could see them going by in the background.
As a working DP and rental facility owner for three decades, I am very clear there was and is an issue with the majority of HPX170's, 171's and HMC150's. The facts are that this "DARN PRETTY MINOR ISSUE" or "minor inconvenience" as you've put it, stopped the Osaka production line and worldwide shipping. I'd be curious to know what constitutes a real issue in your mind? I guess if it's a Panasonic problem it has a different standard than a Sony problem.
I laud Panasonic's engineers for coming up with a fix so quickly. I am less impressed by the original attitude of the product manager and your continuing to diminish what is a real issue for so many owners, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the work you do and valuable information you provide to forum members like myself.
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cameralover
Member
barry, I preordered the 170 from BH.
Focus is more than a minor issue for me.
I returned the camera luckily before BH closed for the holidays.
Focus is more than a minor issue for me.
I returned the camera luckily before BH closed for the holidays.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Jeff, I did say that people were engaging in hyperbole, yes. What would you expect with a thread title of "SHOW STOPPER"? You don't think that was hyperbolic? I did.
Your characterization of me along the lines of "the Iraqi baghdad PR guy" is patently offensive and I hope you don't try that again. That's completely uncalled for.
You and I should be free to disagree on the magnitude of the issue. I and others have said that it hasn't slowed us down one iota. Whether that agrees with your assessment or not should be a matter of opinion and we should feel free to have differing opinions. If my reaction was strong, it was because of the incendiary nature of the initial statement. This is the internet. We've been doing this a few years. We've seen issues come up before. Stuff happens. But throwing gasoline on a fire and blowing things way way out of proportion (which is my opinion of what happened here) is rarely productive.
This issue got solved because I (and perhaps others) took your demonstrated concerns, put it to the test, and showed real-world potential issues to the product manager. Giant screaming fireballs of hysteria had nothing to do with it, other than to damage individual owners. Look at Jay Rodriguez complaining that he lost $1800 worth of work because some producer read somewhere on the internet that this particular camera has this outlandish wobble. If people want to talk about "having the users best interest at heart" I think stuff like that is far more damaging to the end users than someone saying "hold on, this is not some outrageous showstopper, this is a minor inconvenience." Meanwhile, working behind the scenes to evaluate what, and how, this inconvenience may actually affect the end users, and getting that evidence to the factory and to the people who can actually make a difference.
So, with all due respect to all involved, I reiterate that it is my (and several others') firm opinion that this situation was grossly overblown. Did it exist? Yes. Was it a huge "show stopper"? Maybe for some, not for many. And whether I agree with the severity of the issue or not, does not stop me from respecting the seriousness that others attribute to it and trying to find a way to get an amicable resolution for all involved.
So, Jeff, thanks on behalf of the users for bringing up the situation in the first place and pointing out this issue that was of potential concern. I may disagree with the vehemence you raised the issue, and you may disagree with my attempts to bring moderation to what turned into a raging forest fire, but that doesn't mean that we can't get along just fine now that it's all resolved.
Your characterization of me along the lines of "the Iraqi baghdad PR guy" is patently offensive and I hope you don't try that again. That's completely uncalled for.
You and I should be free to disagree on the magnitude of the issue. I and others have said that it hasn't slowed us down one iota. Whether that agrees with your assessment or not should be a matter of opinion and we should feel free to have differing opinions. If my reaction was strong, it was because of the incendiary nature of the initial statement. This is the internet. We've been doing this a few years. We've seen issues come up before. Stuff happens. But throwing gasoline on a fire and blowing things way way out of proportion (which is my opinion of what happened here) is rarely productive.
This issue got solved because I (and perhaps others) took your demonstrated concerns, put it to the test, and showed real-world potential issues to the product manager. Giant screaming fireballs of hysteria had nothing to do with it, other than to damage individual owners. Look at Jay Rodriguez complaining that he lost $1800 worth of work because some producer read somewhere on the internet that this particular camera has this outlandish wobble. If people want to talk about "having the users best interest at heart" I think stuff like that is far more damaging to the end users than someone saying "hold on, this is not some outrageous showstopper, this is a minor inconvenience." Meanwhile, working behind the scenes to evaluate what, and how, this inconvenience may actually affect the end users, and getting that evidence to the factory and to the people who can actually make a difference.
So, with all due respect to all involved, I reiterate that it is my (and several others') firm opinion that this situation was grossly overblown. Did it exist? Yes. Was it a huge "show stopper"? Maybe for some, not for many. And whether I agree with the severity of the issue or not, does not stop me from respecting the seriousness that others attribute to it and trying to find a way to get an amicable resolution for all involved.
So, Jeff, thanks on behalf of the users for bringing up the situation in the first place and pointing out this issue that was of potential concern. I may disagree with the vehemence you raised the issue, and you may disagree with my attempts to bring moderation to what turned into a raging forest fire, but that doesn't mean that we can't get along just fine now that it's all resolved.
Barry, I completely agree with you.
This whole thing should have been less overblown.
It's fixed.
The 170 is a great FUNCTIONAL camera with half the startup issues of the ex1
Accept it for what it is, honestly.
Everyone stop complaining and get out and do some shooting before the industry passes you by
its about the talent behind the camera, not these minor issues.
I have the cam, and I find it to produce amazing pictures.
that's all that counts to me.
This whole thing should have been less overblown.
It's fixed.
The 170 is a great FUNCTIONAL camera with half the startup issues of the ex1
Accept it for what it is, honestly.
Everyone stop complaining and get out and do some shooting before the industry passes you by
its about the talent behind the camera, not these minor issues.
I have the cam, and I find it to produce amazing pictures.
that's all that counts to me.
Dino
Veteran
Barry,
I totally agree that everybody will have a different take on how severe the issue is. What I didn't like was your dismissing out of hand before having a camera in hand. Ditto Jan. I stand by my "Show Stopper" thread title--although can understand your considering it incendiary, but you had already come to that conclusion before having tested a production 170 for yourself. I found your statements of my "yelling fire in a crowded theater" offensive.
You are not the only one who did tests and provided Jan with useful information. Adam Wilt came to my place within days and did his own tests and privately sent Jan his findings. I will not quote his reaction when he first tried my camera, but suffice it to say he saw it as more than minor. Very early on I sent Jan a PM asking her to please have her engineers look into the issue before she made her judgment. I have no doubt your testing was helpful as you are thorough and highly regarded.
I apologize if I have offended you, it was not my intent. Yes, I have seen more serious camera issues over my career, as you have. This will all be behind us very soon, and for that we are all very thankful. I agree with you regarding any noise issue with the 170 vs. 200A, I can't find it. The HPX170 is a very good camera and I would hate to have to lose it's feature set and go to a 200A, I have no doubt about that.
I totally agree that everybody will have a different take on how severe the issue is. What I didn't like was your dismissing out of hand before having a camera in hand. Ditto Jan. I stand by my "Show Stopper" thread title--although can understand your considering it incendiary, but you had already come to that conclusion before having tested a production 170 for yourself. I found your statements of my "yelling fire in a crowded theater" offensive.
You are not the only one who did tests and provided Jan with useful information. Adam Wilt came to my place within days and did his own tests and privately sent Jan his findings. I will not quote his reaction when he first tried my camera, but suffice it to say he saw it as more than minor. Very early on I sent Jan a PM asking her to please have her engineers look into the issue before she made her judgment. I have no doubt your testing was helpful as you are thorough and highly regarded.
I apologize if I have offended you, it was not my intent. Yes, I have seen more serious camera issues over my career, as you have. This will all be behind us very soon, and for that we are all very thankful. I agree with you regarding any noise issue with the 170 vs. 200A, I can't find it. The HPX170 is a very good camera and I would hate to have to lose it's feature set and go to a 200A, I have no doubt about that.