GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?
- Thread starter filmguy123
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Thomas Smet
Veteran
I disagree entirely. Even a few lenses will quickly add up to a couple grand. Yes one can start with some cheaper slower lenses but not all new systems have those options. Plus it’s still an added cost. Moving to the R6 I have without a doubt put a lot more into this than I would have if I just waited for the GH6. $2,500 body + $1,000 24-240 + $200 50mm + $200 EF to RF adapter. Im about $4k into RF now and still don’t have anywhere close to the lens coverage I hade with m43. I still need a 85mm, a macro lens and a 24mm or 28mm. That’s another roughly $2k I will eventually have to invest.
I didn’t have a lot of EF lenses and most of my lenses were m43. So for me moving to Sony, Fuji, Canon or Panasonic FF meant I had to buy new lenses. I could buy more EF lenses but that is still an added extra cost.
that’s why I say I don’t think a $2,500 price tag on a GH6 is going to be a negative for most users waiting for it. Most of those users likely also have m43 glass and moving to any FF system means a much higher cost of entry to get to a usable point. Many of us have been doing this long enough to not want to compose and just get by with crappy slow lenses to start with. We want to upgrade, not downgrade our production value.
This is why I think the Panasonic FF series have been horrible sellers. The loyal Panasonic users cannot afford a more expensive body and insanely overpriced lenses. While lens options may be getting better when the S1 first came out there was little to no affordable lens options for the L mount.
At least for me RF had a $200 50mm f1.8 which made it a good replacement for my Leica 25mm f1.4 m43 lens that was my workhorse for years. Still I have invested a lot more than $2,500 and will eventually invest a lot more. A GH6 would have meant just $2,500 and I would be done.
Panasonic stands a decent chance with the GH6 if they can get the darn thing out. They have a decent loyal user base and a history of lenses and accessories. It’s a comfortable system for users and a small investment vs moving to a new system.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Your case scenario is tailored to be a perfect example to support your argument - which is nice, I get it - but it's exaggerated, as mentioned.
It doesn't need to be explained that someone with a dozen MFT lenses for every single purpose for his or her work will need to spend more money if he or she would like the same package when upgrading to a new system that is not compatible with the same glass, but that is not the situation for everyone.
The point I've been making is you are generalizing and grouping everyone, every upgrade in the same money cluster, which isn't accurate.
Just like how you shared a thought the other week about no one owning a camera in your family in Wisconsin when growing up and you made some conclusion from that in regards to camera companies and sales.
While everyone I knew in New York had a new camera every 6 months, but that's only what I experienced and it doesn't mean I think everyone on the planet did, obviously know better than that.
Different people, different lives, man...
Peter C.
Veteran
I have no doubt Panasonic will want or need to charge around $2,500 for a new version, that's just how the business works. Manufactures aren't going to the time and expense to develop a newer version to sell it for the same amount or less. The philosophy I've observed over the years is we set our price either people buy it or we will discontinue it but we are under no obligation to give you a better deal. I'm aware of temporarily lowering the price to clear old inventory of discontinued models but that doesn't reflect the pricing practices in regards to new models.
The real question is how many people want to buy M43 camera that similarly priced to FF camera with a cheap kit lens. People like specs and they like the idea that they can at a later date add a better lens. There will always be people who will be loyal and want to stay in the eco system they've invested in. The question is how many will be left when the GH6 is available.
The GH is under attack from multiple fronts, it's not a question m43 vs FF. I imagine many of the user base has been split off and use BlackMagic Pocket cameras that do more for less in the budget cinema category. Panasonic is trapped in an increasingly shrinking market segment. Panasonic is going to have to accept what the sales are because they don't want to compete by lowering their prices. They are going to have to market the advantages to their system and cheaper lenses is one of those reasons, but as you charge more for a camera the type of customers that can pay that much aren't as concerned with price.
The real question is how many people want to buy M43 camera that similarly priced to FF camera with a cheap kit lens. People like specs and they like the idea that they can at a later date add a better lens. There will always be people who will be loyal and want to stay in the eco system they've invested in. The question is how many will be left when the GH6 is available.
The GH is under attack from multiple fronts, it's not a question m43 vs FF. I imagine many of the user base has been split off and use BlackMagic Pocket cameras that do more for less in the budget cinema category. Panasonic is trapped in an increasingly shrinking market segment. Panasonic is going to have to accept what the sales are because they don't want to compete by lowering their prices. They are going to have to market the advantages to their system and cheaper lenses is one of those reasons, but as you charge more for a camera the type of customers that can pay that much aren't as concerned with price.
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Zim
Veteran
Panasonic just needs to get the right camera out there. Make a camera with good AF, better low light, 5K for those who want more and other improvements. Maybe offer some good deals on kit lenses to get new customers. I would like to see it under $2,000 but like Peter C says it will probably be around $2500. It's not rocket science Panny!
NorBro
Major Contributor
The positive in all of this is that at least they have some time to evaluate the market and hopefully decide to make it even better than it was going to be (regardless of their press release & pending its release).
And that's the only way I see the camera being more expensive than the $1700 full-frame S5 (it's $2K at this time but drops to $1700 at some point on a monthly basis) unless they announce that AF has been significantly improved (and it actually has been).
Still though...it is an uphill battle no matter what.
And that's the only way I see the camera being more expensive than the $1700 full-frame S5 (it's $2K at this time but drops to $1700 at some point on a monthly basis) unless they announce that AF has been significantly improved (and it actually has been).
Still though...it is an uphill battle no matter what.
I am still interested. I want 5.7 K 60P with internal 10bit 4:2:2 and simultaneous external to my Ninja V. Don''t need anything more than I already have with the GH5 or better GH5S. I assume it will have USB PD power and support for V90 etc just like the GH5 M2 with maybe ProRes RAW and BRAW like the GH5S. Alternate for me is the BM Pocket 6K which would require me to buy new lenses etc. So quite a bit more expensive option.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Yes. My only point is to not assume it’s too expensive for all users or that if it costs the same as a FF camera that means it’s over priced. The sensor size is only one of many factors for users. Some users such as myself did move to another system and started over with lenses. To others the GH6 will be a great value.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
The S5 is $2,000 right now plus its not exactly the flagship model of the S series. The GH6 may have stills features more in line with the S1.
Plus like I mentioned its not going to be so cut and dry from GH5 owners to just move to the S5 when one has to factor in lens costs. Even at $2,000 for the S5 and $2,500 for the GH6 if one owns two or more m43 lenses that price difference is easily negated and surpassed. It doesn't take much to make up and surpass that $500 difference. Plus the S5 is a rather old model now with older processing. The GH6 could very well do a lot of things better.
Even if users have EF lenses with a Speedbooster one of the most used lenses for those users is the Sigma 18-35 f.1.8 which is a APS-C lens. Thats means it can only ever be used in APS-C crop mode on the S5 meaning less detail or less sensitivity. A GH6 with its increased sensor technology, better processing and the focal reduced f1.2 lens could end up performing just as well in many cases. Plus there is absolutely no video AF at all with adapted lenses. Moving to the S5 is just about the absolute worst solution for EF lens owners. They are 1000x better off moving to Sony or Canon. Lets just go ahead and call the S5 a non option going forward. That line will never do well. End of story. I consider it foolish at this point for anyone to invest in L mount glass or the S series of cameras unless they already have and want to keep going while it is still around. Panasonic is never ever going to se positive sales unless they pull a fast 180 and release some affordable budget lenses in the $200 - $500 price range. Even then if m43 mount has a questionable future the L mount is 100x worse. I just don't consider it a very wise investment considering the alternatives out there now.
Its all about a loyal user base. M43 still has a loyal user base. Canon and Nikon still have a loyal user base. Sony has a loyal user base. The L mount does not and likely never will. We have said it many times but Panasonic mad a grave mistake not making a FF line with some kind of upgrade path for m43 users. Canon and Nikon each have perfect older lens mount support for their older lenses. Thats allows existing users to move forward gradually. Sony is pretty well established now and has a huge selection of lens options. L mount is DOA as far as I am concerned.
So a GH6 could be $3,000 and I see it having huge value over a $2,000 S5 just because existing users can move to it with no effort. Maybe that isn't a factor for you but it will be a factor for many. The way I look at it if m43 users really didn't care about the abysmal lens choices for the S5 they would have moved by now. They didn't move because its just not practical for many users. Panasonic also blew it with it horrendous continuous AF support for EF adapting. For the love of digital images they could have at least made a darn lens mount that could communicate well with EF considering how many GH users use EF glass and Speedboosters. Yeah DFD AF sucks on the S5 but right now EF AF is beyond sucking and doesn't work at all.
Even from a cinema lens perspective I know a lot of people that moved away from Rokinon and will never go back. They now use Meike or other alternatives that are m43 mount. The GH6 and P4k are much more realistic options for them right now until we get better FF cinema options. Considering the EF lens mount is gradually being phased out I'm not even sure how much longer investing in EF glass will be. Cinema cameras are going to be in an interesting spot when they have to pick a mirrorless FF mount to switch to. E or RF the two most likely options. Assuming Canon will allow RF that is. They seem to have a pretty tight reign over the RF mount right now. Realistically its looking like E mount may be the new cinema camera future. Kind of makes the most sense and there are a massive pile or Sony and 3rd party E mount lenses out there now.
Until that point m43 mount is still la very realistic option which can be adapted to EF until its hard to get EF lenses in the future.
NorBro
Major Contributor
There are a lot of things said above that are misrepresentations or based on hypothetical thought-processes (and I mentioned the camera was $2K and it drops to $1700 every month), but it's all good...whatever you say. I want the GH6 to succeed.
Zim
Veteran
bad news for all the camera industry
https://www.43rumors.com/this-is-bad-news-for-all-the-camera-industry/
https://www.43rumors.com/this-is-bad-news-for-all-the-camera-industry/
NorBro
Major Contributor
It's probably going to depend on who's making the sensor.
Initially, there were rumors that Sony will supply the Z9's sensor but not sure what's the latest. (That also wouldn't be shocking.)
If Panasonic will have a non-Sony GH6 sensor then it could be different and the delay may not be as long.
What do we know though? Who knows...
Initially, there were rumors that Sony will supply the Z9's sensor but not sure what's the latest. (That also wouldn't be shocking.)
If Panasonic will have a non-Sony GH6 sensor then it could be different and the delay may not be as long.
What do we know though? Who knows...
stoneinapond
Veteran
Is that even possible? Sounds intriguing if it turns out to be true
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I don't feel like the best AF lenses available give me more performance than I need. If anything, they still fall short at times. So I don't really want less than the best. Or else I could have kept manually focusing! I was doing fine.
The real Sony winner was the Canon overheating. I couldn't wait for Canon's next model, and I didn't want to sweat the heat while shooting. Game: Sony.
But it didn't hurt thinking that RF lenses would be preferable, hence I'd save less money staying in Canon...
As for Panny AF - yes, it seems like their lenses might do fine with PDAF. But I've been totally blind-sided by how different lenses perform differently in AF regarding functions I thought were controlled solely by the camera. For example, my Samyang lenses handle eye AF well, staying on the eye. But if I touch to track an object, they lose the object and switch to something else much more easily than my Sony or Tamron lenses. I thought the camera tracked the object and told the lens what to do. Somehow the CPU in the lens seems involved. I'm just saying there could be hiccups in Panny lenses if they add PDAF. I've learned to expect AF surprises
NorBro
Major Contributor
You couldn't make the overheating work in your particular line of work because of possibly longer recording times at times (and neither could I back in July 2020), but you can just reset the timer these days.
As far as the best AF falling short, it's really the system falling short as well, not just the lenses. (And third-party lenses shouldn't have perfect Sony communication like Sony lenses do. Probably varies.)
As far as the best AF falling short, it's really the system falling short as well, not just the lenses. (And third-party lenses shouldn't have perfect Sony communication like Sony lenses do. Probably varies.)
Much like A7IV had the lens breathing controlled only on Sony glass, the Samyang problem looks to be - wait for it! - a logic bomb. To paraphrase George Orwell, all E-mount lenses are equal but some are more equal than others.
PS. The Nikon Z9 problem isn't with the sensor but the processor and it's possible that they can't get some foundry to make it specifically for Z9 because they're making something else for some cloud servers. But I think it'll be corrected by spring.
PS. The Nikon Z9 problem isn't with the sensor but the processor and it's possible that they can't get some foundry to make it specifically for Z9 because they're making something else for some cloud servers. But I think it'll be corrected by spring.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Yes but if you said to me that adapted EF was almost as good as native, I'd say that was no good
doing some accounting - weddings were only 22.8% of my revenue this year. Probably 45-50% is editing, so the majority of shooting revenue is other. Weddings are just the most common type of shoot I do (~45 this year)
But I think it's a pretty limited set of circumstances in which you can cope with an overheating camera. There's no producer there ideally, or better yet you are the producer. There's no time pressure for shooting b-roll. It's not an unstoppable event. You can interrupt the interview. If it's drama or a music video, the budget is low enough that camera interruptions are worth the extra quality you're getting from a very cheap camera.
When I was shopping, there wasn't clarity on a timer reset. But I wouldn't bank on that anyway. Some firmware update could disable it. I'd rather have strong and reliable fundamentals than a camera i have to bend over backwards to function. I don't think it can record 4k120 indefinitely anyway, which has been surprisingly useful to me
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I'm not so sure. This is intercompany issue, not intracompany like the articles you referenced. Samyang is Korean. They could probably sue if they could prove intentional crippling? And if it were a logic bomb, why not disable eye AF as well? That's rock solid on the Samyangs. I admit that I don't have a plausible explanation, but I'm not totally sold
you also see other behaviors that differ that I thought would have been decided by the camera. Such as AF transition speeds operating differently on different lenses. One lens might need a higher value to achieve the same speed of transition as a different lens
Thomas Smet
Veteran
AF lenses have motors to move the elements around. Its a bunch of built in electronics to taker the place of our hands. Those electronics, gears and communication to all of that can without a doubt vary from lens to lens. Doesn't even have to be 3rd party. Thats why AF is still rather hit or miss even with DPAF. I use the D-tap firmware tool to update the firmware on my Tamron lenses and that greatly helps the AF performance.
Lenses have firmware for a reason and its because they are no longer just a tube with glass inside. There are a lot of moving parts and electronics to make OS and AF work properly. I have seen a Tamron lens go from horrible AF to amazing AF by just updating the firmware. Other lenses just could never handle DPAF as well as others due to the motors and electronics inside.
So far the Tamron 70-200 f2.8 G2 is rock solid with the Canon EF-RF adapter. Perfect AF every time. Other adapters like Viltrox are much worse at times. Again proof that the software and communication do play a big part. Viltrox has its own reverse engineered solution to commenting from EF to RF. With the Canon brand adapter they are both Canon mounts so they know exactly how to make the communication work.
Another issues I have seen with Viltrox is strange OS issues like the lens suddenly jerking as it tries to figure out whats going on. When it comes to adapting its really best to go as native as possible or at least go with Metabones that devotes a ton of resources to figuring out how to make that communication work the best. Yes sometimes quality costs money.
I don't know much about converting to Sony but as far as I know there are no official Sony adapters for EF to E mount so its likely a 3rd party like Viltrox or Metabones. I'm willing to bet if anyone does have strange oddities it is likely due to it being a Viltrox adapter. Even Metabones may sometimes not be 100% perfect either and there are some lenses that just will not communicate. Adapting is always hit or miss and a bit risky. Thats partially why I went Canon. Canon owns both EF and RF and stood the best chance at 100% perfect adapting. The success of their RF line really falls on their EF lenses working well enough for pros to want to move to a new RF body and eventually gradually upgrade their EF lenses to RF lenses.
Finally the age of the lens really matters. Some Canon lenses are horrible with DPAF. Some are amazing. Its all about those gears, motors and electronics on the inside of the lens. Just because a generation 1 Canon EF lens from the 1990's may function on a Metabones adapter doesn't mean it will work great. Most of the Canon EF lenses were designed for stills first and it shows. Thats why I like Tamron lenses. Not just due to cost but they seem to do very well for video. At least the G2s do. I also have an older APS-C Tamron 17-50 f2.8 OS which so far has worked very well on a Speedbooster and the GH4 and P4k. Also works great on the R6 in crop mode. Thats an older lens which is really hit or miss. Some copies work well others do not. I took a chance but it was only $250 so I figured what the heck. The P4k doesn't have AF anyway. I really wanted something with at least a tiny bit of OS to help the P4k and it works great. Bought a used 24-70 f2.8 older Tamron as well and I returned it. the OS was broken and it jerked all the time. Fine for stills but useless for video. You have to be careful with used lenses. The AF and OS motors and gears can wear down sometimes and its the sort of thing that rarely gets factored into the condition rating.
Lenses have firmware for a reason and its because they are no longer just a tube with glass inside. There are a lot of moving parts and electronics to make OS and AF work properly. I have seen a Tamron lens go from horrible AF to amazing AF by just updating the firmware. Other lenses just could never handle DPAF as well as others due to the motors and electronics inside.
So far the Tamron 70-200 f2.8 G2 is rock solid with the Canon EF-RF adapter. Perfect AF every time. Other adapters like Viltrox are much worse at times. Again proof that the software and communication do play a big part. Viltrox has its own reverse engineered solution to commenting from EF to RF. With the Canon brand adapter they are both Canon mounts so they know exactly how to make the communication work.
Another issues I have seen with Viltrox is strange OS issues like the lens suddenly jerking as it tries to figure out whats going on. When it comes to adapting its really best to go as native as possible or at least go with Metabones that devotes a ton of resources to figuring out how to make that communication work the best. Yes sometimes quality costs money.
I don't know much about converting to Sony but as far as I know there are no official Sony adapters for EF to E mount so its likely a 3rd party like Viltrox or Metabones. I'm willing to bet if anyone does have strange oddities it is likely due to it being a Viltrox adapter. Even Metabones may sometimes not be 100% perfect either and there are some lenses that just will not communicate. Adapting is always hit or miss and a bit risky. Thats partially why I went Canon. Canon owns both EF and RF and stood the best chance at 100% perfect adapting. The success of their RF line really falls on their EF lenses working well enough for pros to want to move to a new RF body and eventually gradually upgrade their EF lenses to RF lenses.
Finally the age of the lens really matters. Some Canon lenses are horrible with DPAF. Some are amazing. Its all about those gears, motors and electronics on the inside of the lens. Just because a generation 1 Canon EF lens from the 1990's may function on a Metabones adapter doesn't mean it will work great. Most of the Canon EF lenses were designed for stills first and it shows. Thats why I like Tamron lenses. Not just due to cost but they seem to do very well for video. At least the G2s do. I also have an older APS-C Tamron 17-50 f2.8 OS which so far has worked very well on a Speedbooster and the GH4 and P4k. Also works great on the R6 in crop mode. Thats an older lens which is really hit or miss. Some copies work well others do not. I took a chance but it was only $250 so I figured what the heck. The P4k doesn't have AF anyway. I really wanted something with at least a tiny bit of OS to help the P4k and it works great. Bought a used 24-70 f2.8 older Tamron as well and I returned it. the OS was broken and it jerked all the time. Fine for stills but useless for video. You have to be careful with used lenses. The AF and OS motors and gears can wear down sometimes and its the sort of thing that rarely gets factored into the condition rating.