GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

stoneinapond said:
the sum could well be justified and prove to be a bargain for those interested in the format.
Click to expand...

That may be true, but it sounds like a lot of people are more interested in a solid offering at $1500 or an offering that combines GH5 and GH5S features at that price than they are interested in a superlative offering for $2500. What do you think are features that would justify the $2500 price tag and get people to open their wallets? 8K? Is there really a broad demand for that?
 
ahalpert said:
What do you think are features that would justify the $2500 price tag and get people to open their wallets? 8K? Is there really a broad demand for that?
Click to expand...

First off, I think Panasonic has already said no to 8K. As to the rest, I'm just playing the devil's advocate. My personal desires are simple and probably wouldn't justify the premium pricing, but here are a few. A wider V-log profile, further enhanced IBIS to compensate for aging arms, perhaps internal raw, realtime viewing of long exposures like Olympus had (not sure of the exact term for that feature) and of course rock solid AF.

Hopefully the engineers at Panasonic have some further ideas. I'm sure it will have live streaming but that's not something that interests me. Internal electronic NDs would be nice and make sure to include the highest resolution EVF available.
 
I really wish Panasonic would have done a 1.4x crop APS-C type sensor and mount. Sensor at 5769. Cropped at 2x to match m43 it would be 4096 wide. Slap on a 0.71x focal reducer and it would be exactly 1x crop FF.

Shooters would have basically had 3 cameras in one.

1. Great 1:1 DCI 4k video and decent 4k stills like the GH5S.
2. Great over sampled 4k video with a bit extra sensitivity than the GH5 with more of a s35mm FOV and DOF out of the box plus 5.7k stills or roughly 24 MP.
3. Slap on a SpeedBooster and you get the same over sampled 4k video and 24 MP stills but gain a stop and now have a 1x crop factor. It would lose a bit of sensitivity from the smaller sensor but gain that back by adding a focal reducer. This way owners could essentially upgrade their camera to a FF camera.

Not too late for them to make a APSC line of cameras. too late for them to make a better adaptable lens mount however. One where Panasonic users could have made use of their m43 lens collection. I for one would have bought a S5 like that in a heartbeat and gradually bought the larger mount lenses.

The M6 mk2 kind of does that but not 100%. The ratios are slightly off. A focal reducer doesn't give an exit 1x crop for FF and cropping doesn't give an exact 2x crop factor. The same can be done with a lot of other APSC cameras but its not really setup to work perfectly that way.

Obviously 8k is kind of the holy grail for hybrid. 8k stills and 8k video. no difference and no funny business. Until we get that the perfect balanced hybrid that could adapt to a perfect m43, s35mm or FF camera would have been cool and people would have bought that. It would have been like when the GH4 brought 4k to the industry or the GH5 brought the first over sampled 4k in 10bit and 4:2:2. People would have been like woah!
 
Starting to wonder if 10 MP on the GH5S is such a bad thing really. I grabbed a few raw stills and upscaled them with a more advanced method to the same 20 MP resolution of the GH5 and honestly I didn't see much detail loss at all. This was done with the DPReview studio test images that have areas of very fine detail. Do lenses even really resolve a ton of extra detail beyond a certain point or are we just capturing fatter blobs of pixels? In some cases I'm sure there is more fine detail but I'm not really seeing it here. Even when I tested this compared to their 20 MP R6 and 32 MP M6 raw images I could only really tell a difference in the finest part of the resolution lines and the super fine text on the color wheel.

I use Affinity Photo which has a Lanczos based upscaling method which does a much better job creating clean edges vs bicubic. This wasn't a fancy and slow application but a regular scaling method built into the application. Ultra fine detail may not be there but I don't ten to worry about something like a single strand of hair or a 1 pixel per line resolution chart in the photos I shoot.

The GH5S scaled at a perfect 2x resolution is even higher resolution than the M6 mk2. I'm not doing this to crop and reframe by the way but to have cleaner way to print 300 DPI vs a pixelated 150 DPI print. By doing this I should be able to get very clean 24"x18" prints.

Obviously noise can be hidden better with larger MP prints which is still one of its advantages. As long as the ISO can stay low enough I think this will work well. Raise it too high and upscaling the GH5S stills will just make the noise even worse.

Starting to think I might be better off with a GH5S and sacrifice the IBIS and better AF. The P4k doesn't have either and in fact has no hope of AF. I can now have raw with my Ninja V and I think the stills will be manageable. I doubt my adapted EF lenses will resolve that fine of detail anyway so I just need to watch out for too much noise. If my prints stay 10"x8" or smaller I don't have to worry.

I'm sure the GH6 will be great but I just don't think its going to have the sensitivity of the GH5S or a larger FF camera. If it does in fact have 24 MP it may end up being as sensitive as the older GH5 sensor. Better technology but smaller photosites. If the GH5 is already not resolving a ton of extra detail I'm not sure the GH6 will.
 
That 1.4x crop camera sounds like a very cool idea but more like blackmagic thinking, both in terms of how innovative the product design is and also how it's designed to save you money by not buying multiple cameras and lenses.

I feel like these big companies are spoiled by customers who don't ask too many questions. I know numerous people like that in the enthusiast sector or beginning cameramen who may put a lot of research into what camera they want, but after they pick it they just ask a salesman at b&h what lenses and accessories they should buy for it. and they easily get loaded down with overpriced extras that quadruple the cost of the initial investment. I sort of feel like that's what happened with Panasonic and Nikon mirrorless lens pricing. But the mentality will drive them out of business
 
ahalpert said:
That may be true, but it sounds like a lot of people are more interested in a solid offering at $1500 or an offering that combines GH5 and GH5S features at that price than they are interested in a superlative offering for $2500. What do you think are features that would justify the $2500 price tag and get people to open their wallets? 8K? Is there really a broad demand for that?
Click to expand...

The price tag could be a lot more than $2500 too.
 
Thomas, I agree, the GH5s was M4/3rds best shot at competing on a noise level with larger sensor cameras. It is a shame they left out IBIS from my perspective. Rather than refreshing the GH5, I think they should have taken the feedback and produced a GH5si a year after.
 
I'm looking for a MFT version of the S1H camera, with similar feature set scaled to the MFT sensor. So I don't expect 8K, but I do expect good dynamic range, good low-light, and hopefully good C-AF. I will probably buy the S1H mk2 next year, but I still love my MFT gear and want to keep it up to date.
 
Bassman2003 said:
Thomas, I agree, the GH5s was M4/3rds best shot at competing on a noise level with larger sensor cameras. It is a shame they left out IBIS from my perspective. Rather than refreshing the GH5, I think they should have taken the feedback and produced a GH5si a year after.
Click to expand...

I totally get why they did exclude it. Its not always a 100% perfect solution and even turning it off it isn't always 100% not there. Plus it would have been much harder with the multi-aspect sensor which I think was the better move to make. The target audience for the Gh5S likely should be using a tripod, monopod, slider, gimbal or whatever vs some random handheld shots. I really there is a mixed market out there and some more run&gun users really wanted the extra sensitivity and the IBIS.

Ironically every S series camera includes IBIS and those are also geared towards the pro market so I'm not sure the whole the pro market didn't want it holds up very much anymore. If that were the case then the S5 would not have IBIS. Even the mighty S1H has IBIS now.

I honestly think the price hurt the GH5S a lot more than the lack of IBIS. The P4k also does not have any kind of AF or IBIS and sells like hot cakes. Its not being used for just film productions either but a slew of run&gun, documentary, weddings and you name it.

At the end of the day it was the $2,500 price vs the $1,300 price for more or less the same quality and to some the GH5S even had inferior quality due to the lack of raw. For years users have been asking for a way to turn off all in body lens corrections, NR and sharpness and Panasonic refused. The P4k came along and pretty much gave every single thing users always wanted from a m43 camera. Minus AF and IBIS of course.

Those who truly needed a hybrid camera likely were not going to choose a GH5S either. Its kind of what held me back. I just couldn't see using 10 MP stills for clients. It was really an odd little camera that tried to be a video only camera but the P4k really cut it off at the knees. Anyone geared 100% towards video was going to spend $1,300 vs $2,500 and get a 5" screen, false color, raw and XLR built in. I think a GH5si would have had even less market share than the GH5s.
 
Thomas Smet said:
I totally get why they did exclude it. Its not always a 100% perfect solution and even turning it off it isn't always 100% not there. Plus it would have been much harder with the multi-aspect sensor which I think was the better move to make. The target audience for the Gh5S likely should be using a tripod, monopod, slider, gimbal or whatever vs some random handheld shots. I really there is a mixed market out there and some more run&gun users really wanted the extra sensitivity and the IBIS.

Ironically every S series camera includes IBIS and those are also geared towards the pro market so I'm not sure the whole the pro market didn't want it holds up very much anymore. If that were the case then the S5 would not have IBIS. Even the mighty S1H has IBIS now.

I honestly think the price hurt the GH5S a lot more than the lack of IBIS. The P4k also does not have any kind of AF or IBIS and sells like hot cakes. Its not being used for just film productions either but a slew of run&gun, documentary, weddings and you name it.

At the end of the day it was the $2,500 price vs the $1,300 price for more or less the same quality and to some the GH5S even had inferior quality due to the lack of raw. For years users have been asking for a way to turn off all in body lens corrections, NR and sharpness and Panasonic refused. The P4k came along and pretty much gave every single thing users always wanted from a m43 camera. Minus AF and IBIS of course.

Those who truly needed a hybrid camera likely were not going to choose a GH5S either. Its kind of what held me back. I just couldn't see using 10 MP stills for clients. It was really an odd little camera that tried to be a video only camera but the P4k really cut it off at the knees. Anyone geared 100% towards video was going to spend $1,300 vs $2,500 and get a 5" screen, false color, raw and XLR built in. I think a GH5si would have had even less market share than the GH5s.
Click to expand...

I ended up with the GH5s (and more recently the BGH1 as well) in part because I liked the larger sensor area, found the cameras a good color match for my EVA1 (and in certain cases the FX9 as well), and they worked well as a B or C cameras either on tripod, overhead rig or on a Ronin-S. I really didn't want any IBIS sensor movement, since there are times that I want a real lockoff shot where I can combine areas from different takes - which seems to be happening more and more lately. For me, the locked rather than floating sensor position was a plus, not a negative.
 
OnSet said:
I ended up with the GH5s (and more recently the BGH1 as well) in part because I liked the larger sensor area, found the cameras a good color match for my EVA1 (and in certain cases the FX9 as well), and they worked well as a B or C cameras either on tripod, overhead rig or on a Ronin-S. I really didn't want any IBIS sensor movement, since there are times that I want a real lockoff shot where I can combine areas from different takes - which seems to be happening more and more lately. For me, the locked rather than floating sensor position was a plus, not a negative.
Click to expand...

Based on that how do you feel about almost every new camera now having IBIS? All the Panasonic S series cameras have it as do the Canon R5 and R6. Eventually not having IBIS may no longer be an option.
 
Turned off on the GH5 at least it will still move if there is vibration. It is not an absolute lock on the sensor. This may also be true for OIS lenses. Maybe on newer cameras there is an absolute lock but I am not sure this is the case.
 
Interesting! Never seen that before.

Maybe not looking hard enough, or conditions weren't met to produce vibration.

If the camera's locked off on sticks (as mentioned above), I'd be really surprised if it moves a lot. Would seem like a defect.
 
IBIS question, as I've never had a camera with IBIS or the opportunity to test it;

If you solidly lock off the camera, turn it off and on, will the sensor alignment be pixel perfect registered to the previous time the camera was on? And can it drift (even by a pixel or two over time) when "locked off"? This has concerned me for various VFX scenarios and is a small part of the reason I chose the GH5s.

I've got no beef with IBIS, and would welcome it 99% of the time with ordinary shooting, but the above case gives me pause for that particular usage.

If you haven't actually tested, it's only speculation, and yes, I know every post trick in the book to "fix" such an issue if it exists... FYI, I've NEVER seen this tested but if you've got a link to such a test, I'd love to see it...
 
I have a GH5 and a GH5S, all my shoots are on tripods in the theatre so no need for IBIS. If the GH5S had come out before the GH5 I might now have two of them! My original objective was to get UHD60P unlimited recording at the lowest cost to me. At the time camcorders were as expensive as getting several GH5's. Of course in my use the lens OIS is off too. I think for the average user IBIS is important so not against at all. I just have no particular use for it in my application. If I was starting now with no cameras I may go for the Blackmagic Studio 4K Plus. Which has no IBIS, no continuous autofocus !! Or even the Panasonic BGH1 since my cameras are locked off and do not move for the show.
 
NorBro said:
Interesting! Never seen that before.

Maybe not looking hard enough, or conditions weren't met to produce vibration.

If the camera's locked off on sticks (as mentioned above), I'd be really surprised if it moves a lot. Would seem like a defect.
Click to expand...

I have not personally seen vibration issue as mine are nicely on tripods. However I think the reason for the GH5S was for mounting on cars/gimbals etc or VFX where image crop stabilization etc would be done in post as needed. I think sensor size in the same body was clearly an issue for IBIS but I do think there was a good reason against vibration too.
 
I will say my desire to have IBIS is almost 100% for family and vacation stuff. The same with DPAF. The kind of stuff my family gets embarrassed when I haul around a ton of gear. When my daughter started soccer this spring I hauled with me the M6 for stills, the P4k for video, Gimbal, tripod and a bag of lenses. It was a bit crazy.

On the professional front I feel I'm covered very well. I don't use AF or IBIS for any professional work, ever. I can do pretty darn good looking 32 MP stills with the M6 and pretty darn good looking raw 4k video with the P4k. I just hate hauling all that around for family stuff and I hate to compromise.

Its ironic I want a sensitive sensor for good low light, DPAF, IBIS, fine detailed 4k 60p, raw or at least good 10bit log and HDR for consumer purposes and can get great results for professional work with a $1,300 P4k.
 
For family video or even stills I just use my Sony AX53. Stabilizer is superb, 20 times zoom , ND's etc. I just shoot HD as a like 60P smooth video. Good match for all the others using their phones !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top