GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

[stoneinapond]

Bought a S5 earlier today and we spent most of the day getting to know each other.

I know it's from a different family but I'm here to remind myself how smart Panasonic cameras can be, and I think the GH6 should be an exciting system.

I rented an S5 late last year and although it did return some amazing images, it is sorely let down by the poor EVF, especially where my eyesight is concerned. Playing some more with the GH5's C4K setting which makes me excited for the GH6. But an S5 mkII with a good EVF would be tempting.

 

[NorBro]

I break my camera purchasing habits into 2 groups:

(1) boredom/great curiosity
(2) useful tools

Coming from the SL2-S (group 1), which is pretty much a S1H (give AND take), I thought I would miss the EVF but Panasonic's great focus peaking keeps me modest.

In general, 90% of the cameras I sell are not worth their cost for me.

With the S5, it's so much for such a good price that you genuinely want to keep it and use it. Yeah, I want a better EVF and full-frame 60p but I'm not paying $2K more for that to have worse color science or some limited functionality.

P.S. One thing I love about it is its programmability. It's like the engineers met with the developers and said: "Here. This is everything the camera can do. Let it be assignable to any button."

Versus say Canon who only lets you do certain things, and sometimes only using certain buttons (they have improved a lot though).

 

[Filthy]

I updated my GH5S and the Ninja V and tried a few clips in ProRes RAW. Files are really big. A 40 sec UHD 60P clip is 10GB just over twice the size of a ProRes 422 file. Colour space is Vlog/VGamut so appears as a VLog file for me in EDIUS. It's like a 12 bit VLog file. EDIUS does not have the ability to directly change ISO or WB which would be the main reason to shoot RAW. I can change these in the PCC filter just like any other file though so not sure if the mechanism is the same or different at the moment. Will have to do some more tests to see how different it is from just shooting VLog to ProRes 422 on the NINJA V At least both updates are free.

Not having access to ISO or WB in Premier is the deal breaker for me personally. Same for shooting BRAW on non-native Black Magic cameras. The ProRes RAW from the GH5s as well as BRAW from the EVA1 are both plenty capable of producing beautiful images. But I didn't really see any real added benefit of either of these formats over the internal 10bit files. The DR seemed too close to call. Perhaps it's more apparent when editing PRR in Final Cut or shooting BRAW on a native Black Magic camera. But the extra cost and effort didn't feel worth it to me. Hoping to proved wrong as I could always use an extra stop or two in the DR department.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Not that I currently use HEVC, but just wanted to mention that one reason I was bouncing around different cameras was because of H.265. A lot of new systems are offering it and/or the best specs in HEVC, but my older computers were useless with it and I had little patience for transcoding, so it really pushed me away from the cameras until I bought a M1.

Also, as far as a zoom - even though I'm thinking you probably want something faster with more reach - Panasonic recently released the 70-300mm, which is reasonably priced for what it is (a zoom lens for the L-mount system), and it's the only L-mount lens I'm planning on purchasing.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1621273-REG/panasonic_s_r70300_lumix_s_series_70_300mm.html

Yeah except on m43 I can use my Tamron 70-200 f2.8 which was the same cost as a 50-150mm or 100-300 equivalent f2.0. Thats 3 stops faster on the long end for 300mm of reach. Even if the ISO is cleaner on the S5 its still bumping that ISO 3 stops. I would rather shoot at a lower ISO on m43 for the same general sensitivity.

That 70-300 still only reaches as far as my 14-140 did on m43 which isn't spectacular. L series needs a heck of a lot more reach to appeal to nature photographers.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Not having access to ISO or WB in Premier is the deal breaker for me personally. Same for shooting BRAW on non-native Black Magic cameras. The ProRes RAW from the GH5s as well as BRAW from the EVA1 are both plenty capable of producing beautiful images. But I didn't really see any real added benefit of either of these formats over the internal 10bit files. The DR seemed too close to call. Perhaps it's more apparent when editing PRR in Final Cut or shooting BRAW on a native Black Magic camera. But the extra cost and effort didn't feel worth it to me. Hoping to proved wrong as I could always use an extra stop or two in the DR department.

Realistically if you are trying to see a difference with your eye you are always going to be disappointed. Raw isn't really about "holy crap" extra quality. Its about extra flexibility in post. Not only the least amount of image compression but it gets away from the old school thinking of rec709 and 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 formats. It gives a lot more options in post. Photographers shoot raw over jpg for a good reason and video shouldn't be any different really. Many DSLRs shoot very impressive jpg images but still raw is preferred because more can be done with it in post. Visually the jpegs from DSLRS should look the same as raw stills more or less. Some crappy jpg encoders in camera can be horrible but that has more to do with the realtime debayering and processing to get to a RGB image at a fast speed.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Setting up for a live HD video stream tomorrow and my GH4 was getting a horrible hum from a sound mixer. Plugged the exact same cord into the P4k and its 100% perfect. I'm back to sticking with the P4k for now. Maybe the GH5S wouldn't;t have that hum but I remember the audio has never been the absolute best feature of the GH cameras. The auto gain circuit in the GH4 made it even worse. Once the music stopped the hum got louder in the camera as the circuit thought it had to boost the signal. Also took seconds to setup the P4k and the menu options once I removed the GH4.

I almost forgot that there are other non image related things to factor in on the Panasonic cameras. Another being the horrendous HDMI delay. P4k has zero delay which when it comes to live streaming means a ton.

I hope the GH6 can fix some of those things. Does the S5 still have audio issues and a bad HDMI delay?

 

[NorBro]

Yeah except on m43 I can use my Tamron 70-200 f2.8 which was the same cost as a 50-150mm or 100-300 equivalent f2.0. Thats 3 stops faster on the long end for 300mm of reach. Even if the ISO is cleaner on the S5 its still bumping that ISO 3 stops. I would rather shoot at a lower ISO on m43 for the same general sensitivity.

That 70-300 still only reaches as far as my 14-140 did on m43 which isn't spectacular. L series needs a heck of a lot more reach to appeal to nature photographers.

I think the L-mount's choices are weak, but I also like to put things into perspective.

I took a look at what the most successful lens company on earth has (Canon), and they only have two zooms that reach 400mm and one is $11,000.

Then I took a look at their primes and I know two are heavily used on sports (the 300mm and 400mm, both over $6K). There's also a cheaper 300mm for about $1400.

So it actually got me thinking...what did full-frame photographers do without all of these longer third party lenses that only really started appearing in the last 3-4-5 years or so, which led me to taking a look at the entire EF catalogue (or those still being sold), and there are actually only about 9 options available over 300mm under $5,000. Maybe another two or three for $200 (some very cheap glass, super zooms).

Now there's no doubt the L-mount needs its own to take advantage of any AF it may have, but all in all, I don't know where the criticism about the L-mount needing reach came from (not yours because I've heard it since the beginning) since the most popular mount in the world barely has any choices.

If anything, this actually has me questioning why the MFT mount isn't more successful in nature because I would definitely be using it.

The guys/gals on TV, safaris, etc. are using the $10,000+ huge white lenses but not everyone can afford those.

___

By the way...had to add this important, fair note that the RF mount actually has incredible reach for the price, 600mm and 800mm ($700 & $900), but they are fixed @ f/11.

 

[OnSet]

Setting up for a live HD video stream tomorrow and my GH4 was getting a horrible hum from a sound mixer. Plugged the exact same cord into the P4k and its 100% perfect. I'm back to sticking with the P4k for now. Maybe the GH5S wouldn't have that hum but I remember the audio has never been the absolute best feature of the GH cameras. The auto gain circuit in the GH4 made it even worse.

I can't analyze your hum, but were you using an XLR adapter?

I've never had issues with the audio on my GH5s or BGH1, typically using one or the other on interviews as an additional camera with my EVA1. For convenience I normally send a 3.5mm cable directly from the 3.5mm connector on my early Sound Devices Mix Pre (simultaneously sending the XLRs to the EVA1) and have the cameras set in the menus to accept line level input, and then adjust the manual input level in the camera. The sound quality is excellent - to the point that I often get a call from the editor asking which audio they should use, because they can't hear any difference between the tracks from the two cameras.

However, I do agree that the GH picture delay can be really annoying, particularly when doing manual focus pulls.

 

[say_doyster]

"GH4 was getting a horrible hum from a sound mixer"

Was the GH4 battery powered or powered by the AC apdapter? Sounds like there may have been some kind of ground loop thing going on. Or, I know from experience that some monitors powered by AC can introduce ground loops to the GH cameras when they are connected via HDMI.

 

[BobKo]

"GH4 was getting a horrible hum from a sound mixer"

Was the GH4 battery powered or powered by the AC apdapter? Sounds like there may have been some kind of ground loop thing going on. Or, I know from experience that some monitors powered by AC can introduce ground loops to the GH cameras when they are connected via HDMI.

I can vouch for the fact that my GH5 gets hum when I use a power adapter in it instead of a battery, then connect a wired unbalanced microphone. There's no hum if I use a wireless mic, but the combination of the power adapter and an unbalanced wired microphone -- especially when I use my ring light -- gives me bad hum. I get no hum when I use a battery in the GH5. I also get no hum if I use a balanced mic, even though I have to use an XLR-to-3.5mm adapter to get the signal into the camera.

 

[Thomas Smet]

"GH4 was getting a horrible hum from a sound mixer"

Was the GH4 battery powered or powered by the AC apdapter? Sounds like there may have been some kind of ground loop thing going on. Or, I know from experience that some monitors powered by AC can introduce ground loops to the GH cameras when they are connected via HDMI.

Yup I think that was it. I have the GH4 AC powered. To be fair the P4k was AC powered as well.

 

[OnSet]

"GH4 was getting a horrible hum from a sound mixer"

Was the GH4 battery powered or powered by the AC apdapter? Sounds like there may have been some kind of ground loop thing going on. Or, I know from experience that some monitors powered by AC can introduce ground loops to the GH cameras when they are connected via HDMI.

Yes, ground loop hums can be hard to chase down. It's not just HDMI cables - it can come through almost any cable that's connected. At one point or another I've had to make wiring/power adjustments to almost every camera I've owned as part of some setup... Doesn't happen often, but having powering backups/options can make a big difference. When running on AC we normally start by making sure that every piece of plugged in gear is powered from the same source - meaning long power runs for cameras at a distance from control. But every so often two pieces of gear just don't play nicely together, requiring troubleshooting and sometimes rewiring, swapping power supplies or battery powering. Of course using high quality power supplies is important, as is feeding audio signals at Line Level.

Side note - the various powering options are one of the things I really like about the BGH1, particularly the standard power input plug/ being able to keep a large battery on the camera that can last for 8+hours / or even powering over a powered ethernet cable if desired. (and no, since I've only had the BGH1 for 6 months it's the one camera I've never experienced an audio hum issue with - but maybe that's just luck...)

 

[say_doyster]

Yup I think that was it. I have the GH4 AC powered. To be fair the P4k was AC powered as well.

Okay. I am guessing here, but did you run the audio into the GH4 from the mixer via 1/8in cable (Mixer powered by AC, perhaps?)? Does the P4K have balanced inputs?. Seems odd that the P4K has no hum, but there is a reason - may be the hook up configuration (look at any differences) or it may be better grounded to begin with.

I hate ground loops (and this is why I purchased wireless HDMI transmission to eliminate cable contact between AC and battery powered components at the final stage of signal viewing).

B

 

[Thomas Smet]

Okay. I am guessing here, but did you run the audio into the GH4 from the mixer via 1/8in cable (Mixer powered by AC, perhaps?)? Does the P4K have balanced inputs?. Seems odd that the P4K has no hum, but there is a reason - may be the hook up configuration (look at any differences) or it may be better grounded to begin with.

I hate ground loops (and this is why I purchased wireless HDMI transmission to eliminate cable contact between AC and battery powered components at the final stage of signal viewing).

B

Yes AC powered mixer and 1/8". P4k has better shielded connections which likely helped in this situation. To be honest I prefer to use the P4k for this stuff anyway. I already had the GH4 setup as my webcam for work so figured I would try it for this event. No biggie.

 

[Thomas Smet]

I think the L-mount's choices are weak, but I also like to put things into perspective.

I took a look at what the most successful lens company on earth has (Canon), and they only have two zooms that reach 400mm and one is $11,000.

Then I took a look at their primes and I know two are heavily used on sports (the 300mm and 400mm, both over $6K). There's also a cheaper 300mm for about $1400.

So it actually got me thinking...what did full-frame photographers do without all of these longer third party lenses that only really started appearing in the last 3-4-5 years or so, which led me to taking a look at the entire EF catalogue (or those still being sold), and there are actually only about 9 options available over 300mm under $5,000. Maybe another two or three for $200 (some very cheap glass, super zooms).

Now there's no doubt the L-mount needs its own to take advantage of any AF it may have, but all in all, I don't know where the criticism about the L-mount needing reach came from (not yours because I've heard it since the beginning) since the most popular mount in the world barely has any choices.

If anything, this actually has me questioning why the MFT mount isn't more successful in nature because I would definitely be using it.

The guys/gals on TV, safaris, etc. are using the $10,000+ huge white lenses but not everyone can afford those.

___

By the way...had to add this important, fair note that the RF mount actually has incredible reach for the price, 600mm and 800mm ($700 & $900), but they are fixed @ f/11.

I realize telephoto isn't a big deal to some people but it is a well known advantage of M43. I also know of some seasoned nature photographers that have switched from FF to m43 for that very reason. Hate having to use a larger and insanely expensive FF lens to have a longer reach. I don't think we hear a lot about it because its not the "cool" thing to do.

M43 isn't just a video camera. In these forums it may seem like that but 99% the entire Olympus user base is photography based and not using the format because of video. Pretty sure even on the Panasonic side photography plays a big part of the market. I know travel and nature photography have a big interest in m43. Part of that is because of its telephoto advantage.

 

[NorBro]

P.S. I would have checked the HDMI delay when you asked the other night but I don't have a micro-HDMI cable right now.

But Newsshooter says it's still the same (not sure if FW fixed anything since then but doubt it).

 

[ahalpert]

I realize telephoto isn't a big deal to some people but it is a well known advantage of M43. I also know of some seasoned nature photographers that have switched from FF to m43 for that very reason. Hate having to use a larger and insanely expensive FF lens to have a longer reach. I don't think we hear a lot about it because its not the "cool" thing to do.

M43 isn't just a video camera. In these forums it may seem like that but 99% the entire Olympus user base is photography based and not using the format because of video. Pretty sure even on the Panasonic side photography plays a big part of the market. I know travel and nature photography have a big interest in m43. Part of that is because of its telephoto advantage.

Incidentally, a lot of hobbyist and above nature shooters use P&S fixed lens cameras because you get an even greater telephoto advantage with those smaller 1/2.3" sensors. the Nikon P1000 zooms to 3000mm equivalent and costs $1k. Even using FF lenses on a M43 body, you won't get that much enlargement. (Well, OK, you could use a Canon 800mm with a 2x extender and then another 2x extension by way of M43 and get to 3200mm equivalent. Of course, the lens weighs 10 lbs and costs $12k. I'm not sure if you can adapt the new RF lenses to M43...)

 

[NorBro]

As we wait for the GH6, here is the trailer to my 36th feature film.

Synopsis: A story about a life in an online community for filmmaking.

___

As the Director of Foto-graphy, this particular shot means a lot to me. Nature’s delicate dance profoundly symbolizes the film's own gyration with subsisting.

Probably will run the independent circuit for 9 years and then we'll take it from there.

I'm hoping OldCorpse will write a review for it (fingers crossed he likes it).

 

[NorBro]

Just my personal opinion on the matter, but maybe after years and years of holding them back, and maybe after push came to shove (Panasonic threatening to leave the camera business), just maybe Canon and Sony will allow some better AF...

Could you imagine...a fully-loaded GH6 with something at least as half as reliable as DPAF or AI.

https://www.43rumors.com/first-rumors-about-the-gh6-having-phase-detection-autofocus/

 

[DLD]

The AF still depends on a number of the AF points. Sigma fpl has phase detect (only) and its AF still sucks.