C200: Honest review from Newsshooter - casts a less than perfect light on the EVA-1

dave12781 said:
That flat out isn't what he said, as you just said. He said, he prefers it over them. He never said he'd choose it - as far as I'm aware, Matt chooses the Alexa. You're also focusing a bit too much on 1 sentence in a 10,000 word article. There was a caveat to every other aspect of the camera - that's dismal. Nothing blowing you away other than that it's a lightweight camera. He even says the weight makes the idea of mounting an external recorder to it seem awkward - that's a negative for a camera with a selling point of 5.2k external raw.
Click to expand...

it's funny when I say Matt certainly outlines his misgivings about the EVA1, and then you counter me by saying I'm not acknowledging his criticsms.

dave12781 said:
But seriously, if you're a Panasonic 'fanboy' why are you floating around the Canon section? Is this site part of Panasonic's marketing department or something?
Click to expand...

all three cameras I own are made by Canon and Blackmagic so you tell me.
 
Tcap said:
Does the Eva-1 do 12 bit raw, or is it just 10bit? I'm trying to get clarification.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, it is still up in the air. It's been confirmed that they are aiming for 12-bit log RAW, but not promising it. 10-bit is more likely. the following quotes Mitch Gross and his explanation...

EVA1 RAW, like VariCam RAW, is both uncompressed and Log encoded. This is unlike Sony FS RAW, which is both compressed and Linear encoded. Linear encoding is generally agreed to be less efficient and a 12-bit Linear holds less effective information than 10-bit Log.
Click to expand...
 
dave12781 said:
Was this site created as a part of the marketing department for Panasonic? I'm honestly curious.
Click to expand...
This site was created by a fan of the DVX100, for users of the DVX100. It is not, and has never been, in any way under the direction of Panasonic. I think they may have bought some banner ads at some point, but that's it. They have no ownership here, they have no say in what goes on here, and in fact if you wanted to assert that DVXUser was in any way related to ANY camera company, you would have to say RED, because DVXUser's original founder is now the President of RED (Jarred Land). Of course, that being said, Jarred doesn't ever censor anything that goes on here either. LandMine owns DVXUser, RedUser, and BMCUser.
 
Yeah, so I DO actually work for Panasonic. Other people here are just replying based on their personal interests. And no, Panasonic is not sponsoring or otherwise influencing the content of this forum. Just because they don't share your perspective does not make them inappropriate plants. Nor does it make you or them automatically more accurate than the other.

I actually thought Matt's review was pretty fair and honest. Of course no camera is perfect for everyone's needs. If it were then there wouldn't be so many different cameras. Just like all the competing models of cars out there -- there is no single model that is ideal because there will always be compromises in design as one feature has to outweigh another in the cost/size/weight/power equations.

All that said, I felt that Matt was quite positive on the EVA1. If you read his in-depth reviews of other products you will see where he has equal criticisms. Frankly there is one quote you appear to be missing that seems to me to be pretty clear in his review: "In my opinion internal recording is where Canon missed the boat with the C200. In 2017 there is absolutely no reason why camera companies can’t offer 4:2:2 10-bit internal recording in their cameras."

As far as the comment that OIS is better than the camera's EIS, well the nice thing is that both are supported. If you have a lens with OIS go ahead and use it. If not then the EIS is available. How is this possibly a bad thing?

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, and with a 9000+ word review there are sure to be points that bolster one's perspective in you come to it with preheld beliefs. It is my opinion that Matt had a lot of positive things to say about the EVA1.
 
Barry_Green said:
This site was created by a fan of the DVX100, for users of the DVX100. It is not, and has never been, in any way under the direction of Panasonic. I think they may have bought some banner ads at some point, but that's it. They have no ownership here, they have no say in what goes on here, and in fact if you wanted to assert that DVXUser was in any way related to ANY camera company, you would have to say RED, because DVXUser's original founder is now the President of RED (Jarred Land).
Click to expand...

That's awesome. I had no idea he started the site. It really seems like anyone who says anything negative about Panasonic on here will get an earful of it though.
 
dave12781 said:
To end the incessant griping. Seriously, on this site if you say anything remotely negative about a Panasonic product people will jump all over you. Was this site created as a part of the marketing department for Panasonic? I'm honestly curious.
Click to expand...

And you're honestly incorrect. I work for Panasonic, and I take it as an extension of my position to ensure that accurate information is presented about products I represent. I generally try to be pretty quiet about until people are asking specific questions, and then I'm there to answer. If incorrect info is presented then I try to chime in to correct it. I don't see that as a Panasonic bias, and frankly other companies could choose to do it but do not appear willing to participate. In my opinion, that's their loss.

This isn't a fan club, it's a user forum. The fact that this is the Canon section means nothing if biased information is being presented.
 
Mitch Gross said:
If you read his in-depth reviews of other products you will see where he has equal criticisms. Frankly there is one quote you appear to be missing that seems to me to be pretty clear in his review: "In my opinion internal recording is where Canon missed the boat with the C200. In 2017 there is absolutely no reason why camera companies can’t offer 4:2:2 10-bit internal recording in their cameras."
Click to expand...

That I thought was where Matt should have edited his article. It's misleading. The C200 does have internal 12bit recording. It's a point of comparison that doesn't make sense to me - internal is internal. Lots of people keep saying the C200's internal codec is weaker when in fact it's much higher than EVA's and lots of others.

Good to know there is at least one Panasonic "plant" here, Mitch.
 
EVA1 RAW output final specs are not published because EVA1 RAW is not yet completed. It will be released in a future firmware update sometime in early 2018. I can state what will be offered as a minimum, which is uncompressed RAW data in at least 10-bit Log structure, in 5.7K up to 30p and 4K up to 60p. Will there be more to it?
 
dave12781 said:
That I thought was where Matt should have edited his article. It's misleading. The C200 does have internal 12bit recording. It's a point of comparison that doesn't make sense to me - internal is internal. Lots of people keep saying the C200's internal codec is weaker when in fact it's much higher than EVA's and lots of others.

Good to know there is at least one Panasonic "plant" here, Mitch.
Click to expand...

C200 video codec's are 8-bit, not 12-bit. The 12-bit is compressed RAW data, and this is what is misleading. when information is in video form v. in RAW data form, bit depth means a very different thing. So simply stating that it is a 12-bit file is not an accurate representation. It also obscures the fact that this compressed RAW file is not accepted natively in most systems, which means that it will require a transcode stage.

I take exception to the use of the term "plant" here, even if you do put it in quotes. I am quite clear on my affiliation -- it's right there in my signature. I proudly call myself a representative, and I'm not hiding it from anyone. May I ask your background?
 
Matthew Allard does not regularly shoot with or own an Alexa. Get your facts straight!



I think it's a big downside that the LCD screen is said to be unusable in many cases. The C300 Mark II's LCD screen goes quite bright, particularly when you turn the back-light on, and I often find it bright enough to use outdoors without a sunhood, though I have a sunhood for the rare times I need it. The C100 LCD is not nearly as bright so is difficult to see in sunlight, though a sunhood typically solves this issue. The C100 LCD is generally perfectly fine for viewing indoors, so it's surprising Matt said the EVA-1's LCD is so reflective that even indoors it can be a problem. With the C100, auto-focus, and waveform, you can often get away without being able to see the LCD screen well, which is much more difficult to do without good auto-focus.

I imagine like the C100 you can use a sunhood with the EVA-1; Matt said it gets in the way, but I'm not sure what he means by that. Perhaps he means it's more difficult to use the touch screen, but I'd hope that most of the camera functions can be controlled via buttons on the body such that the touch screen isn't necessary. I'd also imagine one could buy a third party sunhood which may provide more coverage than the stock Panasonic one.

Some people are used to adding third party monitors to their cameras, but I feel for the run n' gun shooter it's often too much of a pain. I couldn't imagine using a third party monitor or viewfinder for a wedding, for example. I recently bought a SmallHD 702 to use with the Amira, but I don't think I'll be using it much with the C300 MarK II or C100s as I like to keep things smaller and more nimble on most of those shoots, and the built in LCD is generally sufficient. The built in LCD on the Amira is too small, which is a pain. The viewfinder is pretty decent, but I'm not a big fan of viewfinder shooting. I'm not always shooting from a shoulder like Matt is; I find that's too limiting to do as default.
 
Last edited:
dave12781 said:
That's awesome. I had no idea he started the site. It really seems like anyone who says anything negative about Panasonic on here will get an earful of it though.
Click to expand...

Some of our members have been here since 2003, they started with or worked heavily with the DVX, and have history and goodwill towards the products. If someone describes a balanced review in a harshly negative light, then yeah, I can see at least a few coming out and pointing out the inaccuracy. I hadn't seen that review yet, but I went straight to it to find out what Matt found "dismal", and I couldn't see anything (other than the onboard LCD, and that has been a continuous complaint on Panasonic's since at least 2003 so long-termers probably aren't fazed by that.) But overall I found his review to be pretty positive; he highly praised the EVA1 in many places. So I will admit I was tempted to copy some of his more complimentary quotes and post them here, but I saw that other folks were already making those points so I let it slide. All of which is to say I certainly understand the sentiment. I would just ask you to understand that guys like Zak, one of our long-termers, has bought and used many other brands of camera, just like Dan and Noel and Kholi and Stephen Mick and the list goes on. Especially as the industry shifted to large sensors; I think most of our working members have bought non-Panasonics because heck, there WASN'T an affordable Panasonic option and hasn't been one for many years.

I think you'll find that fair evaluations will be received warmly and respectfully here, and thrown stones will probably be received less warmly. Conversation is good, dialogue is good, constructive dialogue is best.
 
I am surprised Panasonic has painted themselves into a corner with the viewfinder situation. In all of my years of using different cameras, I have never considered using the on camera LCD for hardly anything. The viewfinder is the only thing I trust. Can't speak for others but that seems to be a common opinion. So for Panasonic to all the sudden deem the viewfinder as not needed is just crazy. Then to skimp on the LCD nits just makes this a third party purchase candidate right out of the box. Seems like a rookie mistake from a veteran company imho.

Also, not everybody is 21 years old. I myself need a diopter these days. Just seems like when the EVA gets compared to the C200, the viewfinder is going to be a purchase making or breaking item unless this camera will be used with a crew only.
 
I just don't understand the fanboyism in professional circles. Kids arguing about XBox vs Playstation, sure, but I'd hold everyone here to a higher standard than that. I own a C200, am very happy with my purchase and also think the EVA1 looks great. It'd be my camera of choice if I needed a broadcast codec over the FS5/7.

Choices are great...
 
When there is a negative article about a Canon Camera by some blog and consequently a post about that in this forum, I don't find many moderators jumping to defend Canon. When moderators appear to become a party then there can be some questions raised about bias. Remember that perceptions are more important than facts, as people act on the basis of perceptions. And also remember that there are Canon shooters who are not blind fans and can give unbiased opinions. So it may be better to first allow the discussion to proceed rather than jump and defend Panasonic the moment some negative post comes up.

Having said that, in one of the posts the OP said that if you say anything negative about Panasonic then you will be immediately ticked off or something like that. I have raised negative points about EVA1 in this forum and have never faced any censure. Though I have seen lot of folks defending EVA1 even when its specs were not ready. I won't say that is because there are Panasonic "Plants" but because people have some inherent bias or soft corners and at times we actually want some company or product to succeed.

However no amount of internet posting can make a bad product become successful. It will ensure some initial sales, but not much.

I found the newsshooter article detailed. People may draw inferences based on their needs and those can differ from the conclusions of Matt Allard, the writer of that article.

I like the EF mount of the EVA1. So I am a potential customer. However, personally I can't excuse Panasonic for skimping on the viewfinder. Straight away it ensured that I am not a customer of EVA1. I won't cheap out and buy the C200b unless, I have to use it for a drone. Same principle applies to EVA1. By forcing people to buy a third party EVF and/or monitor which can be viewable in daylight, EVA1 costs go up beyond what people in this bracket can pay. And more importantly the advantage of a small form factor is lost. May be Panasonic will have the good sense to include an EVF with the EVA2 whenever it will be launched.

I felt people were expecting too much with the dual ISO. With impressive high ISOs of Canon and Sony, the dual ISO of 800 and 2500 is not going to get any advantage. On head to head tests, the EVA1 may be a bad performer in the ISOs vis a vis canon and sony cameras in that price bracket. But not everybody uses very high ISOs, so that may not be a major issue for many people. If people can live with the ISOs of BMD, then Panasonic EVA1 is way ahead.

I had never expected Panasonic AF to come close to that of the C200. At the moment Canon is the leader in that area. So anyone loving the DPAF will be inclined to go that way. Nevertheless, a lot of people still don't use autofocus and will be ok with the EVA1 with/without the AF.

People used to DSLR shooting and loving to shoot with massive rigs may be ok. The way C200b is going to be used by bigger productions for drones, similarly the EVA1 can also be a personal camera to some of the DPs working in larger productions. So buying extra EVF and monitors is not a deal breaker in some situations.

Only 128 Gb card limit is ridiculous. Not sure why there is such a limit. I am sure someone here can give a positive spin to it. :)

I hope that Panasonic can give some date about the firmware update for 400Mbps so consumers can decide better their date of purchase. With good broadcast ready codecs which doesn't need much of tweaking, this camera will work for many long interview situations where you are not so much depending on the AF. With the present high cost of CFast 2.0 cards, long interviews in the RAWlite C200 codec is a costly affair. I am sure the prices will come down soon. I am yet to get the egodisk cards.

I hope and Pray that Panasonic will do a Sony with the EVA1 and immediately launch a EVA2 in mid 2018.

Having said all this, the ability to still find the right angle in a moment and get the best composition and shoot will be more important for doc shooters or the ability to light and create awesome compositions will never go out of fashion. May be better to focus on that area and learn from each other.

PS: I love the the colours of the Varicam. Still can't afford it but ogling is not a crime.
 
indiawilds said:
Only 128 Gb card limit is ridiculous. Not sure why there is such a limit. I am sure someone here can give a positive spin to it. :)
Click to expand...
Sure, I'll take a stab at it... I would be willing to bet $4 that there is NO 128gb card limit. Hopefully a new owner will have a proper-spec 256gb card and prove that.

I am almost certain that any perceived limit is instead a translation error, between the engineers and the manual writers and the English readers. The EVA-1 may be guaranteed to work with 128gb cards since those were available for testing and guaranteeing, and it may not have been tested YET with 256gb cards, but that doesn't mean it is limited to 128gb max card size. Those are two very different things.

If I am not mistaken, people have been successfully using 256gb cards in the DVX200, even though it could have been interpreted as having a 128gb limit depending on how you read the initial documents. I predict (but cannot guarantee) that the EVA-1 will be similarly capable of using 256gb (and larger) cards, so long as they meet V90 specs.
 
128 GB is about two hours of Long GOP 150 Mbps. It seems like a sufficient time allowance.

PS. I suspect (some) larger cards have buffering issues.
 
Persnally, I think that both cameras, the C200 and the EVA-1 share something quite positive in common.
Both provide access to an image coming from a higher echelon of their respective lines at a low to moderate price and are hybrid gimbal cams.
The choice really comes down to a broadcast spec workhorse that really replaces the AF100 or an indie cam with DPAF and Raw for young artsy/narrative shooters and advertising b cams.
So the choice really comes down to self-image. Wherever folks fall on the line between these two categories will determine the camera they choose.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top