FS7: Green grass saturation

Karma.

Your first parra about Custom / S-LOG in and S-LOG in Cine EI without an MLUT I would agree with. That's basically how I work the modes.

For STD I tend to aim for the traditional 90 for peak white reflectance with Zeb #2 and vary my Zeb #1 between 60-70 IRE depending on subject matter. For most Caucasian interviews I usually run Zeb #1 at 60 IRE and run an aperture / gate of 3%. That is pretty narrow as it will start at 58.5 and disappear at 61.5 but it keeps my exposures very tight on those important "skins." For general scenes I'm more lightly to run my Zeb #1 at 65-70 IRE, more often than not at 65.

With the Hypergammas I usually under expose a little, up to a stop, as I know it will be graded. I have actually exposed HG 7 & 8 as I would 709 and found it holds up pretty well and generally it just needs a little bit of LGGC (Lift, Gamma, Gain and Contrast) to make it look very presentable. Very good for a quick turn around. That's where the Hypergammas are very useful.

I think Alistair Chapman really covers the Custom / STD / Hypergamma shooting scenarios far better in his video than i could describe here in the scope of a post. Well worth a look. If you haven't already seen this video I think you will find it useful, especially from about 4:55 into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKhVOsvzF_k

Chris Young
 
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Lenny.

Agree with everything you say in parra #1.

Also agree that the true hybrid is to burn a LUT in Cine EI. But for me for a quick turn around this doesn't always fly for a number of reasons. 1) If the presets whites of 32, 43 and 55K are not really suitable it means the whole shoot has to be corrected for white balances in post. 2) I find, and don't know why yet, that Custom / S-LOG2 hybrid is quieter than EI S-LOG with LUT. 3) Should you need higher IS0 levels it is very quick to add and again appears to be less noisy than LOG and LUT in EI with pushed ISOs. And finally 4) In pure LOG there are no detail circuits settings available. If the job requires some detail / sharpness adjustment, which for TV is a very common requirement, it all has to be done in post again adding time and more importantly render times which I find a lot of my TV commitments just don't have.

Finally I find shooting Custom / S-LOG2 a totally variable experience rather than having to be locked into Cine EI ISO's of 1000, 800, 500 to achieve set over exposure levels. I trained and started with film and so am totally used to pushing film stock speeds and notifying the lab. In video I started on HiBand 'U' and then Beta, then progressed to the later HD ENG formats and of course developed the sort of memory muscle that goes with video shooting. That memory muscle is still second nature and still serves me well for typical video shooting. If the shoot required a set film style process and was to all be shot in LOG with a 100% grade from an experienced color grader and not just an average news editor then yes Cine EI is the way I would go without a question. Sadly these days I find not many programs have the time, budget or inclination to offer these ideal scenarios. For me for certain jobs the Custom / S-LOG2 approach can offer some advantages for quicker turn around propositions.

It's just amazing that we have so many choices and options these days. I remember primitive times such as when turning the cameras on them for questions and reverses the journos would say "Make sure you turn off the detail circuits for my close ups." Which in those days was drop the side of the camera and throw a switch, then put it all back together after they had p***** off quick.

Chris Young
 
Ha, I have pretty similar history but never remember turning the detail off, but I didn't work for news or any post people I was really in contact with. Preferred shooting with light nets behind the lens or Pro mists to both cut the edge off the detail circuits but still allow some of the sharpness to maintain. I almost never use diffusion anymore in HD or 4K because it often looks too obvious and its easy to add in Post. I kind of miss it though.
I do hear what you say about the presets and will experiment with the Slog 2 custom one of these days. The problem for me is that I'm reluctant to hand many of my clients any file that still needs some correction to make it pop correctly. They'll more likely do nothing or screw it up if they try.
 
LennyLevy said:
The problem for me is that I'm reluctant to hand many of my clients any file that still needs some correction to make it pop correctly. They'll more likely do nothing or screw it up if they try.
Click to expand...

So, so true. With those sorts of clients I give them 709. If I know them to be fairly savvy in post and that they have posted my work before and that they are capable of a bit of easy NLE grading sometimes it will be Custom / LOG or Hypergammas. Full LOG I only deliver if it's specifically requested or if it's for my post work. I've even had issues with some outfits delivering Hypergammas to them when they know nothing about it.

Yes in some ways miss the old Black and Whie Promists, especially the Blacks. Those plus a heap of voile nets are just sitting in boxes somewhere on my shelves. A now bygone age... and it all happened so quickly. No it was only a couple of journos I knew who were wise to the detail circuit switches and that was in the old BVP-50s and 70s. One who became our Ch9 resident reporter in L.A.

Chris Young
 
Ok, got it.

I hope to finish my Scene File compare and contrast in the next couple of months and will post a link here.

Thanks again to all. It has been very helpful.
 
@Chris
I really appreciate all your responses on this thread.

Just a couple more questions and I promise that's it.

On my FS7, I restored the Custom Settings to default, so it is shooting in Standard with everything zero'd out. I shot a test shot using the OneShot Plus Pocket and all of the colors lined up on the vectorscope except green. If I only had the scene and monitor to look at, I would say the camera was perfectly reproducing the colors, but according to the vectorscope (Atomos Flame) against the One Shot, green is a tad off toward the yellow side.

My questions are:

In a case like that, would the recommended correction be on G- or G?

Am I correct in saying that settings in the User Matrix adjustments tend to be too global and have unintended consequences?

Are there ever any instances when you would use the Phase adjustment?

It seems in the User Matrix the setting adjustments push other colors around and isn't something you'd want.

Much thanks!
 
I can't answer your question about G or -G, but I would say :

Your questions about the User Matrix seem based on your not knowing how to use them. They are complicated and you will have all kinds of unintended consequences unless you do a lot of homework.

I use phase adjustments often for slight changes in magenta and green tint. Its not sophisticated but it can really solve problems in a pinch and I've been perfectly happy using it.

Lastly - I don't know that having your one shot colors all lining up right is the be all and end all of good color. I got a ton of magazine photos and tried to make them all look accurate with good flesh tones and that didn't happen when the colors hit the boxes perfectly. In fact I ended up with something that was pretty distorted. However the pictures looked good to me. I don't understand that but it was my experience. Maybe I'm completely off base though.
 
LOL. Yes, that's correct. I'm not sure what I'm doing exactly but figure I have to learn some time. I read this article pretty closely:
http://shootdatapost.com/blog/2009/4/19/painting-hd-cameras-pt-1-basic-colorimetryhtml

What I've got so far is that the User Matrix is for broad or more general adjustments and the MultiMatrix is more precise and for fine tuning. So what I was thinking if that all the colors but green are lined, perhaps the G or G- is the best way to try and line it up. I do agree that once the green is lined up there might be no improvement at all, but figured I might as well try if I can.

Unfortunately, it is hard to find good tutorials online that go into detail and so I feel forced to stumble around and ask on forums like this.

I don't think the One Shot is the end or be all, but since it was developed by DSC Labs and Art Adams and doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I figured it was a reasonable option to try.

I am just trying to understand the camera the best I can and don't mind researching and experimenting on my own. But at the same time, I figured there's no harm in asking those who clearly know more than I do.
 
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http://dji.server808.net/scenefiles.html

Here are some scene file comparisons I threw together. I realize that some of them require better grading for a fairer comparison. I was primarily interested in scene files that don't require grading, but since I had some available, I figured I'd just include them.

To my eyes, the CY STD 5 and Interview STD come the closest to the actual skin tone of the model. The colors of the Gatorade bottles are not rich colors in real life, so some of files really add some punch to them.

Thanks to everyone who shares their scene files set-ups. I really appreciate it.
 
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karma17 said:
My questions are:

In a case like that, would the recommended correction be on G- or G?

Am I correct in saying that settings in the User Matrix adjustments tend to be too global and have unintended consequences?

Are there ever any instances when you would use the Phase adjustment?

It seems in the User Matrix the setting adjustments push other colors around and isn't something you'd want.

Much thanks!
Click to expand...

You will be amazed that on the G- or G you can make major adjustments with very little apparent change. So no to adjusting Green as a general rule. I know it sounds counter intuitive but to change your "greenness" adjust YL in the Multi Matrix or for a finer more subtle change use -YL in the Multi Matrix. As I first mentioned in this thread the problem I find with Sony cameras in general is that they have a tendency to to bias towards yellow. That is why I run -25-30 in YL in the Multi Matrix as this tends to minimize that yellow bias but without any major affect on the yellow content of the images recorded. As an experiment point your camera at some foliage and just crank the YL Multi Matrix way down to minimum and then way up to max and you will see a dramatic change in the yellow bias of the camera and you will see your greens change dramatically. As I said most of my settings run the Multi Matrix YL at around -25 t0 -30.

Yes in the User Matrix any adjustment will affect other colors to some degree. I think the example I may have used earlier is a spider's web. Pull on one part with a twig and you will see a global effect. Greater closer to where you pulled the web but with the least amount of effect on the other side of the web 180 degrees from where you first used the twig.

Yes there are some cases where a global phase adjustment can be useful in the User Matrix but you have to be very careful as this effects every color. If you rotate the phase in the negative ant-clockwise direction red for example will move towards orange. Going clockwise red will head towards magenta. Sometimes if you have a subject who tends to have a e very florid, leaning towards magenta skin then yes 3-5 points negative will introduce more orange/yellow into the skin tone. Problem being if he has a red shirt on it will head towards orange. You will will have to make the call. All other colors will also alter their hue.

As an example for skin tone you are better to go into the Multi Matrix and adjust the red's phase there. This has far less effect on other colors. The Multi Matrix is narrower more discriminating space to make finer color adjustments. Red minus 3-5 points will have the same effect on the red as in the User Matrix but it won't drag all the other colors with it to the same degree. Level #1 adjustments are in the top level the User Matrix and the more subtle selectable range adjustments are in level #2 the Multi Matrix.

Don't be frightened to to experiment in the User Matrix. This is how you will learn what effects what. You can always set all values back to their default '0' settings and start again. In the digital world this is easily done whereas back in the days of analogue circuit cameras there was no easy numbers to reset. It was all done on the scopes by tweaking the 'pots' with a plastic screw driver.

Keep experimenting :)

Chris Young
 
As usually everything Chis says is spot on. But on another note:

I find a lot of color tests that are posted on the web pretty useless because they have a few saturated colors and one models face, but the images you'll shoot are extremely varied as are the complexions you will encounter. What may look good on one test could be atrocious on another. My mentor for this stuff - Tony Salgado - a DP and engineer now in LA suggested getting a bunch of glossy magazine photos with all kinds of different color. Look for shots with a variety of flesh tones and exteriors with different foliage and lighting. Look for subtle colors and pastels. Then try to find a setting (s) that will make all of them look pretty good. Of course one of those should be a DSC chart like a one shot to look at on a vectorscope. In fact DSC makes one with bunch of different models - but it will cost you a whole lot more than a few Nat Geo's from Goodwill. You'll be amazed at how often something is good for one look but not another. Eventually you can find a happy medium or at least see why you need to do to adjust for different issues. I plan to do that with the multi-Matrix one of these days . Of course make sure you illuminate it under reliable color. I chose tungsten because its the safest - no magenta or green issues. And of course you need a good monitor because that will now be your standard. If you can make magazine photos look accurate then it will carry over into real life.


Also I would separate tests for contrast from color. Do all the color tests with the same gamma so you can really compare the subtleties. Tests for contrast have completely different issues to look at for seeing the differences between STD, HG & Log and all the parameters within the Custom settings. Mixing them together is just too many variables and will drive you batty. Personally I would do it all with STD as long as you keep all the levels within range. Overexposing STD is a really good way to see the advantages of HG or Log because of its effect just on the colors as well as the contrast.
 
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Thank you both very much.

It does say in shootdatapost it is a lot of trial and error.

I'll keep working on this.
 
Thanks for the exercise karma.

An interesting comparison to see a few of them together. I noticed you have some of the AB Scene Files included as well. I looked at all of those and was not at all satisfied by the rendition of the Reds. For example, a little hard to tell from the small pics, the container you have behind the chart has a red screw on lid by the look of it. My guess is that to your eyes in real life the red lid is no where near as magenta as is depicted by the AB Scene Files. Especially their 'Hi Sat' file. This magenta bias red is one of the things that is hardest to fix in the later model CMOS Sony cameras. It was not such a problem in the CCD cameras. All along one of my pet hates has been reds that bias to magenta. I want fire trucks, Ferraris, real red Roses, red street signs etc to look like the red they are, without magenta overtones!

May I ask a question? Where do that family of AC Neutral, Vibrant and Filmlike Scene files come from? Are they your developments or are they readily available. If available I wouldn't mind having a play with those. I do like DJ's Interview Standard as well. Someone else who digs into this black magic fairly often.

Again thanks for the comparisons. As is often said "All progress throughout history is the product of the unreasonable man."

Chris Young.
 
Hi Chris,
The files are here.
https://www.abelcine.com/articles/blog-and-knowledge/tools-charts-and-downloads/new-sony-fs7-scene-files-from-abelcine

I do appreciate Lenny's comment that viewing on the web isn't the greatest, but so much content ends up on the web, what can you do?

I shot them all under the same lighting conditions and set exposure for middle gray. I actually shot them in order of Middle Gray values starting with those at 33 IRE all the way up to the highest. I figured that way, for better or worse, someone could at least see, to some extent, what one scene files is doing versus another. At a certain point I have to trust my eyes, and from the scene, I think your STD 5 and Interview came the closest to matching the skin tone of the model's head. I have to say the JR CINE 45 isn't bad either, but adds saturation.

I don't want to overly obsess about all this, but I'm just trying to find a few scene files and have a sense for what they do. Saturate certain colors, bring out blue or cyans, and like you say magentize reds. And also keeping an eye to the skin tone. I found this article fairly interesting about skin tones.
http://www.mediainstitute.edu/blog/vector-scope-lessons-flesh-tone-line

I was reading up on Art Adams and his One Shot, and he said the biggest thing was not so much hitting the boxes with the vectorscope, but at least getting the colors to line up.

So, at the end of the day for me, I just want to know which scene files do what, get the vectorscope as lined up as I can, and just trust my eyes at a certain point.

Thanks again for all your input on this. It has really helped me get a better handle on this.
 
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I wasn't concerned about viewing on the web though of course that's an issue, but rather mixing up the color part of your scene file with the contrast part. Gamma, black levels and saturation will drastically affect your saturation and will confuse comparing the color matrix parts of the scene files. Test them separately - that's my suggestion anyway. I suspect the a lot of those files might have come from Abel Cine and frankly I just found the fact that they used different matrix settings mixed up with different gammas completely confusing and kind of useless at least to me. I don't understand the thinking behind that but maybe that's my lack of understanding.
 
Hi karma

Yes I agree with Lenny's comment. The web is probably the worst place in the world to view any kind of footage, bad enough with images.

I think you misunderstood me about the scene files karma. I have all the AbelCine files. All have too much magenta bias for my liking. The ones I was curious about were the five scene files that have "AC" at the start of their names. AC Neutral, AC Vibrant and AC Filmlike etc.

Art Adams knows his stuff well. He also has a very enquiring mind and will always experiment. I frequently follow his musings and writings.

Ah! The old flesh tone line. It now appears on a lot of software vector scopes which is always a good guide. We always used to say aim for about 7 minutes to 11 on the analogue scopes and you won't be far off the sweet spot.

Happy shooting and all the best to all on the forum for the Silly season and the new year.

Chris Young
 
Ah thanks. Mr. Alistair's eh! He is a great source of many things video. I shall have a look at them. If you can get some use out of my CY STD 5 go for it. It also works pretty well when shooting using the Hypergammas. Give it shot.

Chris Young
 
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