Good Bye?

David W. Richardson said:
One other potential flaw may come from voting as you watch. In other words, you watch one video and think it's the best, so you give it a 10. Then you watch another and decide it's better than the first. Now what? Ideally, you'd watch all the videos and then go back and score them based on how good they were compared to each other. Maybe?
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I think you missed the point of the rating system... you are to view the films and rate each on it's own merits...not rank them against each other. I don't know that that really happens, but it is the way they are designed as I understand it.
I do agree since it is an average that gets you in the finals, there should be something in place that requires you to watch & rate a minimum number of films (or better yet all of them if you want your vote to count) before rating. I'm sure there are filmmakers with large followings getting people to just watch (or not) & rate their film. When a fest is over, you can get your average 'score' and where you ranked...but you never get the number of votes your rating was based on.

I'm sure all this could be cleared up if any of us really understood the complete scoring process....I guess a BTS of the rating system would help. :happy:

...and what was this thread originally about?
 
Barry_Green said:
Do you think people really behave that way?
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AHhhh.... yeah!
It seems to me that most viewers RANK the films against each other, it seems to come up with every fest.

Again, I'd love to know how the process works to understand it. It sounds like a film with one vote of 10 will beat-out a film with a thousand 9's... is that righ? Are you better off with fewer ratings?
Do you still need at least 50 posts to rate a film in the contest?
 
Barry_Green said:
Because that's not how it works. Five 9's beats a thousand 7's. The only way it would be unfair as you're thinking, is if those masses would unfairly rank the known filmmaker HIGHER than the better film. If you had a thousand people voting on one film, and they all gave it an average of seven, and you had twenty people voting on another film, and they gave it an average of nine, the less-popular but better-rated film would win. That's how the system works. Which is exactly why we have two rounds of voting -- so that the lower-viewed but higher-rated films will get a higher exposure by virtue of being a finalist, so that everyone will watch and rate on all the films that are in serious contention.

So the only way it'd be unfair is if someone watched a mediocre film from JDS, and a great film from ... I dunno, Rob38881, and said "well, I sure liked the Rob38881 film better, but I don't know who that is, so I'm gonna give it a five just because I don't know who it is. And the JDS film wasn't very good, but I know who JDS is, so I'll rank it higher just for that."

Do you think people really behave that way?
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No. What I think people would do is not even bother to watch the film from Rob38881 because they never heard of him. That's my point. I think people tend to watch the films they already believe they're going to like, based on who made them.

If "five 9's beats a thousand 7's", then I should just hope I only get one person to view and vote, and he gives me a 10. I'm being facetious, of course. But should five 9's beat a thousand 7's?
 
ZazaCast said:
AHhhh.... yeah!
It seems to me that most viewers RANK the films against each other, it seems to come up with every fest...
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As long as any given individual's scoring method (whatever it may be) is consistent with itself, the overall average should still be accurate.

Right?? I'm not one of the analytical guys, but that seems to hold water for me...
 
CallaghanFilms said:
As long as any given individual's scoring method (whatever it may be) is consistent with itself, the overall average should still be accurate.

Right?? I'm not one of the analytical guys, but that seems to hold water for me...
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Not sure I agree. I would agree if everyone watched ALL of the films and judged them critically and objectively.

Maybe if it was a blind competition -- nobody knew who made the films until after the judging?
 
Barry - yes, I've seen a film that should have made the top three but didn't because that person didn't have a fan base, was relatively new. Or seen films that were not as good as they could have been got higher ranking because of fan base. Every forum has cliques, popular kids, outcast and this forum is absolutely no different from that.

At times the popular kids get the highest votes, should they? It's a contest with a biased judging panel, it's gonna happen and the only way to make it so totally fair is to have judges that have absolutely nothing to do with the forum to judge each film. How do you do that? Entry fee to pay judges, not like the prizes aren't worth paying something to get in.

I am unaware of any "free" screenwriting competition that gives away big prizes like this forum gives away big prizes to filmmakers. I don't know if the filmmakers here have taken that for granted how the mods come up with such fantastic prizes without an entrance fee requirement.

@ZaZa - we were talking about user nicks and I stated I like those who use their real names or film company names. Yours "ZaZa" is soooooo coooool.
 
Noob here but, how did a topic about trolling and bad mannered people on the forum migrate to "how to vote in the next fest"? I felt I walked into another post about midway through this one.
 
Yeah, veering back a bit more on topic- why do some people behave the way they do online?
No, not the anonymity, not hiding behind the screen- those are just the conditions that allow it, but why do it?

Are they meek in real life so they become virtual bullies?
Were they bullied (virtually or really) at some point?
Is it their alter ego?
Insecurity?

I mean, like psychologically, why act like a jerk? It's a lot of extra work...
 
Well when I used to talk on a local bulletin board in the 80s that had 12 modems connected to a single computer that worked similar to IRC, this type of stuff happened then as well. I even had people threaten to beat me up (I was a kid). They had local meet-ups every once in awhile and I met these people, and get this, the kid that threatened me, nice kid?!? Totally acted normal. I think some people get some kind of pleasure from being that way not in person that I just don't understand.

And this wasn't an isolated incident either, it has happened MANY times.

That's why when someone is being a jerk online, I don't take it personally, even if they try to insult me or piss me off. Heh, maybe that's why I make a good mod, but at the end of the day, I just don't believe half of the comments I read that in real life would insult me or piss me off.

Look at it this way, I play video games where I cast spells and kill demons. I don't do this in real life. For some people, talking on forums is a type of entertainment and how they conduct themselves is a part of that entertainment. It's not what they do in real life. So for them, to try and prove they are right, or prove other people are wrong, gives them satisfaction with themselves. Also, it could be ANY of the things you mention. Forum usage is such a different thing to SO MANY people.
 
Interesting perspective, Rick. When you cast spells and kill demons in a game, there are no other people involved, I'm guessing. If there are, as in online games, then everyone participating is playing a game.

But in online forums, people are interacting with other real people. It's not the same thing. And anyone who bullies, ridicules or humiliates other real people as 'entertainment' has some serious problems, in my opinion.
 
I use to co-manage a hotel and I'd invite screenwriters from DoneDealPro to swing by and stay for free during the off season if they were headed to California. The most problematic user came by with his wife. I had no qualms about letting him stay for free because the outside world isn't the same as the virtual world. Everyone deserves a chance to be seen as a real person.

We all had lunch together and talked. The guy had a mischievous mean streak. The undercurrent was as real in his real life as it was on the boards. We banned him for 6 months and then permanently banned him because he liked to stir the pot. I told him straight up he was mean and he laughed it off. He went on to the boards I mention where you have to use your real name and was banned almost immediately, they have zero tolerance there because of the professionals who post there.

The problem here is "how" the boards handle habitual problem users. On DoneDealPro we gave a warning and if things persisted, we discussed banning. We had probation periods and then finally a 6 month ban. Strange thing, they always came back or wanted to. Once they got that first ban they either straightened their posts or they kept right on after a month or so of returning.

It's up to the owner and mods to decide how strict a policy they wish to enforce on these boards. I know of one FBook friend who isn't coming back as of last week. Why? Because of jerks. So, it's up to users to report the jerks and up to mods to decide what to do with them.
 
David W. Richardson said:
But in online forums, people are interacting with other real people. It's not the same thing. And anyone who bullies, ridicules or humiliates other real people as 'entertainment' has some serious problems, in my opinion.
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This may be people interacting with other people, but it's very easy to disconnect from that. After all, right now you are simply looking at words on a computer screen. You cannot hear my voice, and you cannot see my face. You may see a picture of me in my avatar, but it's a still image. It isn't real. At least, it's easy to perceive it that way.

Email, text, and Internet forum posts are too quick and too convenient. Hand-writing a letter forces the writer to stop and consider his/her words very carefully. Handwriting can also show an emotion that electronic text cannot. It's too easy to be reactionary, and too easy to say something without really weighing its risks and ramifications. It's also too easy to throw something out there that's intended to be funny/playful/tongue-in-cheek, but to everyone else reads as mean-spirited. Many things that are typed into posts on Internet forums are things that the author wouldn't dare say to the other person if they were in the same room. That warning flag seems to be absent, or ignored, in too many cases.

Basic self-moderation will make places like this run much more smoothly, and will allow them to flourish and to be generally fun places to dwell. But it takes everyone pitching in to make it that way.

If it's at the expense of another person, don't post it.
If it's something you want to keep just between you and a select few, don't post it.
If it's more about proving yourself right and less about collaborative discussion, don't post it.
If it's an immediate reaction to some one else pissing you off, don't post it. In fact, walk away from it and see if you feel the same way in 3 days.
If its only purpose is to exact revenge on someone else, don't post it.
If you wouldn't say it straight to the other person's face, don't post it.
And if you wouldn't want your mother or employer to see it, at any time now or in the future, don't post it.
 
David W. Richardson said:
Interesting perspective, Rick. When you cast spells and kill demons in a game, there are no other people involved, I'm guessing. If there are, as in online games, then everyone participating is playing a game.

But in online forums, people are interacting with other real people. It's not the same thing. And anyone who bullies, ridicules or humiliates other real people as 'entertainment' has some serious problems, in my opinion.
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Hehe, you must be out of gaming a bit :) A HUGE amount of people play against each other, while I never played World of Warcraft, I did play Everquest and Ultimata Online. Not to mention, I play games like Call of Duty which are multiplayer online games where I am doing a lot of things I would NEVER do in real life, period.

I'm not saying these people don't have problems, I think they do, I'm just giving another perspective for a 'why'. I've warned people before on their behavior and have had communication with people who basically say something like "Dude, I'm only kidding around, why are you all so serious all the time!" which is what gave me this sort of additional perspective on users. It doesn't make it right, it just helps me take another look at some people's actions and not be so dumbfounded as to how someone could act as such.

Let me give you a perfect example.

"You are so smart! :)"

There are two ways that you can take that statement with a smiley face that will certainly be derived from some of the other text a person could have written. It could mean

1. Someone things you are smart and it makes them happy for whatever reason.

2. Someone is being sarcastic and they are using the smiley face to drive home that sarcasm.

Which did the user mean? I see (especially with foreign writers) that message trying to be conveyed doesn't always come across correctly. I've seen arguments blow up real fast because a lot of times, people take the worst possible meaning instead of the best possible meaning as what was intended.

This is what makes communicating difficult online. You can't see my face or hear my inflection.

And I will tell you, I for one DO NOT put up with mean people where I moderate. If it crosses the line a little, I give them the opportunity to fix it first and warn them. If they cross the line a lot then they are gone. No one here has tolerance for bad behavior because those people contribute nothing but stress to DVXUsers. :)
 
@Rick - that's one thing we've always said about online words, you cannot read sarcasm or tone. It doesn't come off the same as verbal communication.
 
Rick, I know people play online. That's why I included that possibility in my answer. But again, everyone in that game knows they're playing a game. They ALL adopt various more or less aggressive personas in that environment. An online forum is a completely different kind of interaction.

I do understand that it's difficult to grasp a person's intent sometimes. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who laugh off their own insufferably bad behavior with the lame excuse of 'I'm just kidding! Can't you take a joke?' There will always be a grey area, but there are also people who go way across the line.
 
Alex H. said:
This may be people interacting with other people, but it's very easy to disconnect from that. After all, right now you are simply looking at words on a computer screen. You cannot hear my voice, and you cannot see my face. You may see a picture of me in my avatar, but it's a still image. It isn't real. At least, it's easy to perceive it that way.
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And that's exactly the problem. People have to understand that they are talking to REAL PEOPLE here. Their behavior on a forum should be no different than their behavior would be in person -- in front of their mother. :)
 
David W. Richardson said:
And that's exactly the problem. People have to understand that they are talking to REAL PEOPLE here. Their behavior on a forum should be no different than their behavior would be in person -- in front of their mother. :)
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One can only hope. It is sad to read about the cyber-bullying that goes on and how it affects people.....the internet, not for the faint of heart.
 
David W. Richardson said:
An online forum is a completely different kind of interaction.
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To you the online form interaction may mean one thing, to someone else, something entirely different. How people interact on forums isn't governed by some universal forum etiquette that everyone knows and agrees upon, it's based on whatever reason they are there in the first place. There are people that go to forums to just argue with people. There are people that go to forums to help other people. There are people that go to forums for help only. There are people that go to forums to just lurk. Some people want validation of their own ideas whether they are wrong or right. Some people want other people to solve their problems. Some people like to help solve problems, and really enjoy being able to give that back. People like me enjoy technical discussions about equipment. And I hear people all the time here complain about technical discussion and pixel peeping, but I don't argue, I don't think everyone should like what I like. I myself leave my artistic discussions offline as they are personal to me and hard to convey without actually working with me so it's pointless to bring up in my mind because arguing about art is a waste of time for me. For others, they may enjoy it, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Additionally, some people come here with an absolute professional attitude and never let it get personal, while there are some people who are completely personal and get crazy passionate about things even when it passes the point of logical sense.

DVXUser tries to cater to a large group of people who are all here at different levels AND different reasons. But that doesn't mean ALL reasons are allowed.

The reason I used gaming as an analogy is because some people play games to really be the character they are being. To experience it and pretend that they are that person. There are others that play because maybe they get aggression out, or, they just like the challenge of beating other people, being the best. Then there are those that find and collect every single thing in a game because they are completionists. The point being, games are different for a lot of people, and I read on forums people arguing over what a game should be about.

I find that behaviors on online forums can fit into categories as well. It's not like having a conversation always with someone, that's just one set of interactions. Just like writing a huge review or testing a camera can come across as a blog post. Different writing styles, different feelings, etc.

The WORST kind of forum I have been on is where it is a popularity contest. I've left those and am so happy that DVXUser is NOTHING like that.
 
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