C100: gimbal stabilizer for the C100 vs the Osmo

Osslund said:
Off topic. Are you Americans not allow to shoot in areas where the public has access to? I know one can't just block of a street without a permit but handheld stuff or even a tripod not being in the way should be okay. What kind of restrictions do you encounter?
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Legally, we can shoot anywhere public, but I have been stopped in NYC, shooting footage of a cool old building. The guards told me it was a Federal Building but I argued I am shooting it from a PUBLIC sidewalk. I didn't want to get into with them, so I moved on. Basically, there are the laws here, then there are overzealous security types who want to assert their authority over you. Just as a general matter, I end up getting eyeballed all of the time like I am working for Al Queda doing scouting for terrorism hits whenever I am shooting video in public. With a phone, nobody cares what you shoot but bring in an Osmo or a C100/300 and all of a sudden you must be shut down. Kind of stupid but that's what fear of terrorism does to otherwise sane people, how else we would we have the elected ass clowns who run this country into power? People who are afraid experience a huge and sudden drop in IQ and rationality, that's how we get the Patriot Act here. Terrorism works because it's casualties are not significant from a statistics standpoint, but everyone freaks out and throws away whatever freedoms they had left in the name of "being safe". As if any government can keep you safe from terrorism. But I digress, in America, we can shoot in any public place, by law, but many people have issues with it and hassle us everywhere.
 
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I find people's paranoia of cameras to be irrational, but fairly wide spread in the US. I hear it is worse in other countries. The number of times I am hindered or blocked by people telling me they don't want to themselves or some building to be shot with my camera gets to be really frustrating. All I can say is, "the last thing I want is for you to keep ruining my shot, please stop." I find that it is worse in the city than in the country where people aren't as paranoid.
 
Shot a promo for a cruise line last week, cruisers enjoying themselves on deck. Later in the day, while I was sitting down resting, two women walked past me and said, there's that wacky who is going around with a video camera. The other replied back "what is he videoing?" They could have stopped and asked me but noooo. Talk about preconception...
 
In most cities in Canada if you enter an outdoor or indoor plaza for an office complex or mall you will be asked to leave. Or at least that has been my experience for the past decade. But oddly if I walk on with my A6000 strapped around my neck and a a loud shirt, they don't bother me, so I slap a cine saddle in a gym bag and buy a bag of chips, sit on a bench and get a few wide shots and and then move about and so far it works. Not ideal but usually gets my out of town clients the B roll they want.
 
If anyone confronts me telling I can't take pictures or shooting video, when at public ground, I would ask which law he or she is referring to prohibiting photography at that location. Probably they can't tell and that would be the end of discussion.
 
Yes, off topic, but it relates to the Osmo in that you have a greater chance to sneak in, right?

In Chicago, the cops don’t want you to interfere with retail businesses making money or endanger the public, so if you want to do any kind of shooting with a crew/talent of more than say 3-5, on the sidewalk, they will scoot you along because you’re forcing pedestrians into the street to go around you. And any kind of cabling on the sidewalk, such as AC cables from a small genie, that the public may have to step over, will get you shut down. I often see student shoots like this- causing danger. Otherwise the cops don’t care much if they see you’re not affecting public safety. There’s a great difference between On & Off Duty cops though. The Off Duty cops are making extra spending money for Christmas moonlighting, yet they are armed and in uniform and are basically doing security and they only care about what they were hired to do for those few hours. You can tell them from On Duty cops because they tend to stay in one place and just keep an eye on things, so they don’t have any incentive to roust us whereas On Duty coppers will be constantly walking, they know each store owner and if you cluster shoot in front of a door they will roust you. I get that. If it were my store I'd want these video people out of there, although some retailers think we're actually an "attraction".

I also have a bona fide Chicago Police Dept Press Pass and I often wear that if I see them, I suggest you all try to get one for your city plus you get discounts for excess baggage. In theory, if I can BS them as to I am doing a news story, they treat me like Kryptonite. Cool with me.

What bugs me is when I am on a public sidewalk and the fancy skyscraper security guards start rousting me. They act like I need permission from the building’s management to film the exterior of their building, which I wouldn’t do for a TV show but for my normal fare I thought they have no right to stop me. My theory is that since the Great Recession low wage/income employees are now petrified of losing their job, plus the bosses are able to monitor them with cameras. I used to bribe these guys, I often greased palms to get onto the roofs of buildings, but these low paid guys are now afraid of losing their job because it will be really hard to get another one.

Another theory is that the building is worried about getting sued if a member of the public gets injured from a crew like us being there, like a tripod handle in the eye (has happened). So maybe that’s why they roust us? It has been explained to me that the big office buildings have control of the sidewalks all the way to the curb, they call the beat cop over and he tells me I have to go across the street.

As for Chicago Park District property or the forrest preserve districts, they want us to have permits so they can have our certificates of insurance on file in case we damage something or hurt someone, plus they know where we will be and when. I get that, but I’m too busy to apply so I basically have Plan B,C, & D. What’s different about Chicago is the weather is so unpredictable we will often need to swap a morning to afternoon so filling out a permit is meaningless. A technique I was taught when starting out is to minimize crew cars so when you do arrive you’re not taking up a block worth of parking spaces which causes the retailers or residents to complain. Use reflectors (the effective old school shiney board kind) instead of lights, stay low profile under their radar.

As to a Control4user saying he shoots on cruise ships…I’ve done that and resorts a lot. Used to go all over the world for Sheraton, etc. and women in bathing suits are very paranoid of pro cameras, especially from behind. It’s as if they have a 360 radar for professional cameras. So if I need a pool shot I usually will walk around and say I’m doing a wide building shot, they aren’t in it or are a “speck”, or some BS. I avoid faces.

And speaking of Sheraton, all over the globe I had to film all bars and restaurants totally empty and I protested, wanting to wait until they were full and my client said, “Many men are here with women who are not their wives…” Oh! OK! I get it! Stupid me! So you will tend to get shut down around hotels and resorts if you aren’t with the general manager, even outside. And places that host VIPs and celebs, in Chicago the staffs will shoo you away because they want that trade- Discretion. And since 9/11 security cameras are everywhere so the bosses radio the plebes to "Get that cameraman out of there."

BTW, If you want to get punched out, aim your camera at a Muslim woman in the Mideast! Try it.

Last thought on this off topic hijack- now that I’m this old I usually have to function as an unpaid advisor (as well as DP), and sometimes a video virgin will ask me if I think we “need a permit” and I feel I have to CYA, so I will counsel accordingly SO I DON’T GET BLAMED if the cops shut us down. These types of clients may do preliminary research in getting a permit, they stop when they see it’s $5,000,000 policy and then we develop the Plan B,C & D scenarios. But now that I do mostly corp and doc I don’t worry about this as much. But get yourself a press pass!

Later,

Ned

P.S. I used to shoot a lot for the History Channel for a LA prod co and around 15 years ago I did a gangster show on Al Capone. We had a Tommy Gun with blanks, squibs, and the plan was to drive down to the exact building's sidewalk where the hit occurred in the 20's. It was a very economically depressed south side neighborhood (if you know what I mean). I had my hands full but the plan was I get out of the car with my director's viewfinder, several actors walk through their blocking so I can make sure that everything is OK, there's no non-1920's stuff in the frame (very difficult!), then one thug is handed a real (no armorer with our budget!) Thompson Submachine gun and we DO ONE TAKE. So we did it, worked perfectly, we are very proud of ourselves but within 5 seconds about a dozen heads poke out the windows and people are literally screaming at us idiotic white folks. Who the hell do we think we are!?!?!? We hear cop sirens and they're getting closer so we jump in our three cars and get the hell out of there.

Looking back, I now realize how rude and immature it was to do without a permit although if we had applied for a permit there would have been zero chance it would have been granted. How insulting it was to the residents who actually have to live with gun violence. The cops risking their lives because they are speeding towards an incident where fully automatic machine gun fire was reported. Eeeeesh...Oh well, we used to call it Guerrilla Filmmaking. It should have been called Machiavellian Filmmaking: The Ends Justify the Means.
 
I live in the NYC area and shoot here frequently. There is a lingering paranoia post 9/11 that the rest of the country seems to lack. I do not know why people who are pro shooters with pro gear draw so much negative attention here, as if some terrorist cell is going to go out and rent some pro kit for the day to shoot scout videos of NYC buildings.... or public places.

There are a few locations where one can shoot an aircraft landing or taking off from Newark without being on airport property, which I had to do for a show once. Its a great way to have a world of **** (WOS) descend on in a hurry, yet if you are in Albuquerque, you can park your car outside the fence right at the end of the runway and enjoy their aircraft observation area to your heart's content. If you had a C300 and were shooting takeoffs no one would bat an eye. Don't try that at Newark though. The NYC area is generally more tense about shooting in public spaces than just about anywhere I can think of, but i think Its all connected back to the fact that 9/11 happened here.
 
Isn't it ironic. Twenty years ago few people used cameras in the street and all was fine. Today when everybody have a camera in their pocket and do take a vast amount of photos and video it's us pros who get hazzled?

In Sweden where I live, a journalist was taken the other day by the police when he was taking photos, in a public place, off children. He documented an event with his pro camera gear (You know the style having a pair of pro DSLR bodys hanging from his neck and a photobag) for a blog about what happens around the city. He has been doing this and work for our biggest daily newspapers as well.

Still the police took him aside and frisked him, took his camera and looked through the pictures (this is illegal to do in Sweden without a court order). After that they asked him what he was doing and he explained himself and they let him go.

Stuff like this pisses me off as the police, in this case, really had no cause to grab him or take his gear. I think he didn't defend himself right away so they could have there way but I would never back off or just letting them removing me or take my gear unless I got an explanation if I did break a law or something.

To me this is important to stand up for our rights. My way is often to shoot until someone says stop and if confronted stand up for my rights. I would never want to live in a future where nothing is allowed. Laws are meant to be followed but fictional laws are not.
 
Some years ago we filmed a commercial for a electric car company, the backdrop of which was a BP Oil refinery. There were signs stating no filming, or pictures, but we went gorilla on it. Had a half-dozen cameras, the car, & one of the most recognizable celebrities, so once we got a few takes we quickly scrambled away.

When we got to base camp the Director decided to send two of the cameras back for B-Roll, however shortly after we began filming again the refinery's Security started following our vehicle, so we broke off, & lead them away from base camp.

About a week later I got a call from Production stating the FBI was involved, & would be checking on me. Turns out Security had gotten the rental van's license plate, & the Feds had traced it to the Production. One day shortly thereafter I pulled up in front of my house & noticed uniformed Marshalls peaking into my windows, & going thru the mail. Suddenly remembered some long forgotten chores to attend, & drove away.

Spent the following two years on a Watch List.

Most my assignments involve air travel, often abroad, & it was a nightmare.
 
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nedcam said:
Very nice prod stills Eric! But Stedicam is a very hard specialty to grow old in though. All the guys, and one gal (Janice Arthur) who I came up with and were the most popular, they didn't make it past their early forties. Spine, knees, shoulders, etc. are not made by Mother Nature to take that long term abuse. I suppose a union Hollywood type who has lots of helpers may help his career last longer, if he is built like a fire hydrant. But your rig is impressive for drama, etc. My client base is doc and marketing now, so they have no use for big rigs. BTW, those bottom two stills, were they RAW stills or what? HDRish? Very nice rez.
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I believe it was 5D Mark III RAW for the BTS photos.

As I said, I still use the Glidecam HD4000 for run n gun work as it's fast and simple to use, and packs down smaller than a full-sized gimbal setup.

I don't know the OP's age, but maybe they're still young enough to do Steadicam. I can see it getting more difficult as one gets older.



cpreston said:
DJI released the Z3 zoom camera. It's not currently supposed to work with the Osmo, but the Osmo specific version should be released soon. The image quality won't be any better than the X3, but you will no longer be stuck with the ultrawide look.

Regarding gimbals vs steadicams, I've owned both but I am certainly not an expert on either. I practiced with a Glidecam and vest for awhile, but I gave up and realized that if I really needed a decent steadicam shot, I was going to have to hire a professional. I now have a Ronin and Ready Rig vest with Cinemilled Pro-Ring. With less practice than it takes with for a Steadicam, you can get perfectly stable shots without the odd floating feeling. You can also significantly reduce the motor power and change deadbands and motor response so that the gimbal doesn't look quite so artificial in its stabilization. My feeling is that a gimbal will naturally produce somewhat poor results without practice, but it will never look as bad as bad steadicam footage. The footage may never look quite as organic as a great steadicam op, but you also don't have to rebalance after every change or worry about the wind or worry about losing a shot completely due to camera sway.
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A few years ago wedding shooters (and run n gun in general) were all about using Glidecams. Some gave up after a few tries, but many persevered and got pretty good with it. Now a days, people are probably giving up a lot quicker or not even trying, because gimbals require less skilled to use, while giving lower quality stabilization for many types of shots that would be better served by a Glidecam user with a moderate skill set. Which means, shooters have become more lazy since they can now get "good enough" but not as good shots without taking the time to learn to use a Glidecam.

I agree that a Glidecam operator without skill will get worse results than a gimbal user without skill, but we are professionals, so, seems to me this is a useful skill to have. Well, at least I make a lot of money off of that skill even though most of the time I'm not hired as a dedicated Steadicam operator, instead using it as a selling point for getting hired, and sometimes as a add-on cost to my day rate.
 
Welp, had two weddings this weekend, so I threw the Osmo in my bag. Thought I'd be able to get a few cool shots here and there. I mean, I made a nice video on my son's first day of school by simply picking it up and turning it on. How hard could this be, right?

During dinner at wedding #1, I tried to get the osmo ready. The app looked different, and it kept freaking out. Was stuck in photo mode. I kept switching it to video, and it would switch itself back to photo. I'd switch to video and try to adjust settings, and the app or camera or whatever would switch itself back to photo. Then the screen kept flashing blue. Only thing I could think was some Osmo-savvy knucklehead wedding guest saw me with the Osmo and guessed I had not changed the wifi password and had logged in to my Osmo to change settings in real time with me. So I changed the wifi password, and the app said I had to restart the "device." Does that mean phone or camera? So I did both. Still no luck.

After about 15 minutes, I said eff it and put it away. I guess I'm spoiled by Canon gear just working all the time. Quite disappointing.
 
I will totally admit that the Osmo app is finicky and I too have missed shoots with it before because the app was being squirrely. DJI needs to improve it.
 
drummondb said:
After about 15 minutes, I said eff it and put it away. I guess I'm spoiled by Canon gear just working all the time. Quite disappointing.
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Yeah, working with DJI equipment has made me realize how good we have it with Canon and how bad it could easily be. It gave me a new perspective on why Canon is so conservative with their equipment.
 
Personally, I bought the Glidecam HD2000 for use with my C100 and after several months of testing and trialling I found that it was super heavy on my wrist/arm. I'm fairly fit and this shouldn't be an issue - was this the wrong purchase for the weight? Note: I do not have the chest/arm attachment as it's quite pricey, does anybody use the Glidecam as is?
 
Glidecam HD4000 is much better than the 2000. It's also heavier. At first even a small DSLR will feel really heavy to use with Glidecam. Over time your wrist and all the right muscles develop. Doesn't mean you need to work out and become super beefy; you just work out those particular muscles while operating, and over time those muscles get more used to the strain. You also learn some proper methods over time, such as holding the Glidecam closer to your body to lessen the stress. Nowadays a DSLR feels super light on Glidecam for me, a stripped down C100 feels fairly light.

I used to use the C100 with a Rode Videomic Pro and lens, which was a relatively light setup (about 5-5.5 lbs). Once I started using the Steadicam vest with the Glidecam, I started using the C100 top handle with an Audio Technica AT875r, which is around a 6.5-7 lb setup. 7 lbs is a bit heavy for me to do Glidecam handheld, but it's still quite manageable. It just often makes me want to use the vest and the heavier setup lessens how long I can hold it for. The vest also makes things a bit smoother, particularly after you've spent some time learning the new skills of how to use the vest and arm.

Using a vest is the same in terms of building up the right muscles over time. I started with the 7 lb setup, which felt heavy and straining on my back at first, but now that I often use a 17-24 lb setup with the Steadicam Zephyr, when I go back to the 7 lb setup on the Glidecam + Steadicam vest, it feels super light and I can go for hours in that setup.

Steadicam vest and arm is $800: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...RM_VEST_MERLIN_ARMVESTPK_Upgrade_Kit_for.html

I got mine used for $500. Not that expensive. Then you get a $50 adapter for Berkey System to use it with the Glidecam and you're set.

Glidecam sells their Smooth Shooter Support System vest and arm for $1400, which is more expensive. It's also a piece junk and not nearly as good as the Steadicam vest and arm at nearly half the price.
 
The Osmo requires a LOT of practice before using on a real gig where you must perform with a gun to your head. I switched from Droid to the iPhone 6 to improve the app performance. I am about to get a dedicated (cheap) phone for it so I can leave it powered up for hours. The reason is: I want to be able to grab and hit record, once I power down I lose some settings and I have to recalibrate horizontal.

So here's how the Osmo saved my butt yesterday, which was a Sunday. I had to do a mini doc of a couple for an adoption agency to show what a nice family environment they have and when we started the b-roll, which consisted of them prepping all the BBQ fixings and then the cooking and then the 7 friends around the patio table and everyone having a great time...I'm running around with the Tokina 11-16 for my establishing shots, especially in the kitchen, then the hated 24-105 for the flipping of the burgers, friends talking and laughing, etc. then I bring out the tripod and do the 70-200 of faces. Kids are playing in the big back yard with a frisky dog. Half the eating table is in shade, half in f16 daylight. It's incredibly hot and humid so I am about to die, and after a hour of this and missing GREAT shots, I say F it, and I grab the Osmo! The Osmo should come with a super hero cape with a big O. Saved the day!

The Osmo produces its own mini wifi signal so Drummond's situation at the wedding I don't understand. Your phone has to have the Osmo's password stored in it! Also, if the wedding is indoors the Osmo will suck. So I took the couple to the forest preserve because in VO they say they love nature, and it gives me great back pedaling shots (I have the Z Axis accessory but prefer not to use it) and faux sliders shots through the foliage (bees were an issue!), then we go to do some dog walking shots to establish upscale neighborhood and I make SURE I DONT TURN THE OSMO OFF because I don't want to risk losing my settings as I travel from one location to the next (remember I posted my custom holder for the passenger seat?), and I put the Osmo down to the dog's eye level and back pedal. So for $650 I have what used to require a Glidecam, Ronin or Stedicam and 10 minutes at least of balancing, plus all the kids would gawk at a vest model stabilizer, I was trying to be a fly on the wall.

I would say that my Osmo experience is good while in Auto and the only time I start tweaking the shutter, etc. is when I am in an environment where the light level is the same 360 and no windows. I always pan slow to avoid motion blur. In fact, since this was to encourage adoption, meaning a real nice home environment, I also had to do a semi-real estate VR tour of rooms and I know from watching other Osmo tours 90% of the ops move too fast. However, I don't trust the Osmo 100% with the windows so I covered each room with the 11mm as a safety. (I'm a coward too).

When I do power the Osmo up and it gives me grief, I go into the phone's settings and 90% of the time it is not recognizing the Osmo's wifi signal, so I click that, perhaps reboot the Osmo. Sometimes the screen is still blank but I've learned that if I use the record button on the handle, rather than the screen, the image on the phone appears and I'm ready to roll, although I sometimes have to recalibrate my horizontal which loses me 30 seconds. I figured that in a nice house the granite countertops must be true horizontal so I did that a couple of times yesterday. There's about 5 settings I check when I first power up. I tried to turn off the fan yesterday in case there were good sound bites, but it was too hot for it to turn the fan off, I figured I would be 100% VO anyway. I do have a rig I made to pin two radio mics onto the subjects, the receiver is in my belt pouch and goes via a mini cable to the Osmo, but I was solo and it was a scorcher and I figured it would be 100% VO, but that is an option on larger budget gigs: Radio mics to the Osmo.

So...in sum my shoot was a "zoo", kids and action everywhere, the C100 work style could not possibly keep up. I noted that the new client's previous shooters were probably 5D, cupping the camera in their palm, irritatingly groping for focus indoors, amateurish handheld. Ugh. I figured that the variety of shots of a C100 with 3 lenses PLUS THE OSMO, would annihilate the previous competition (I know, I'm overly competitive). Perhaps if I had an assistant to swap lenses with I could muddle my way through but I was solo, or if the new Canon 18-80 zoom was on it, but at a certain point I said to myself that I was missing way too many "precious moments" so I grabbed the Osmo. After all, it's the content of the shot and the fact that I captured it rather than if it was C100 or Osmo, right? I hate missing a moment that is killer. My alternative was to just stay on the 11-16 all day (will buy the 17-55 soon) but I would think that I underserved my client and feel lazy. There was no client present, no script, just an order to spend a few hours producing a mini feel good doc so I felt it was all about the moments, and it became apparent that the Osmo had a better chance of success.

There was a VO line about how they live near a great playground, so we took two kids and I was able to walk 360 on uneven ground around the playground equipment and I could not do that with the C100. I have no interest in a Ronin for reasons stated previously, mainly because I'd have to have a dedicated C100 on it for Grab 'n Shoot.

Lastly...there is a forum by DJI that I was on for months trying to figure the Osmo out and I had also posted gripes about the app but all-in-all, 90% of the app issues turned out to be either MY USER ERROR, or old firmware, or a phone issue, NOT the Osmo itself. If you are new to it you can't expect to Grab 'n Shoot, it takes a couple of minutes to set it up properly and once you do: LEAVE IT ON for hours, at least in standby. As a freelancer, on a weekday, I may check my phone every half hour for possible gigs but on an Osmo day I close all apps and leave it in it's EVF holder. I've read a lot of the app gripes on the forum and chuckle. They don't seem to have done searches as to what's the fix. All-in-all, what do you want for $650? If they had no bugs it'd be $2000!

And Drummond, you can email me and we go over on a (Free) phone call my step-by-step as to set up if you'd like.

http://forum.dji.com/forum-91-1.html

See ya,

Ned
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
Glidecam HD4000 is much better than the 2000. It's also heavier. At first even a small DSLR will feel really heavy to use with Glidecam. Over time your wrist and all the right muscles develop. Doesn't mean you need to work out and become super beefy; you just work out those particular muscles while operating, and over time those muscles get more used to the strain. You also learn some proper methods over time, such as holding the Glidecam closer to your body to lessen the stress. Nowadays a DSLR feels super light on Glidecam for me, a stripped down C100 feels fairly light.

I used to use the C100 with a Rode Videomic Pro and lens, which was a relatively light setup (about 5-5.5 lbs). Once I started using the Steadicam vest with the Glidecam, I started using the C100 top handle with an Audio Technica AT875r, which is around a 6.5-7 lb setup. 7 lbs is a bit heavy for me to do Glidecam handheld, but it's still quite manageable. It just often makes me want to use the vest and the heavier setup lessens how long I can hold it for. The vest also makes things a bit smoother, particularly after you've spent some time learning the new skills of how to use the vest and arm.

Using a vest is the same in terms of building up the right muscles over time. I started with the 7 lb setup, which felt heavy and straining on my back at first, but now that I often use a 17-24 lb setup with the Steadicam Zephyr, when I go back to the 7 lb setup on the Glidecam + Steadicam vest, it feels super light and I can go for hours in that setup.

Steadicam vest and arm is $800: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...RM_VEST_MERLIN_ARMVESTPK_Upgrade_Kit_for.html

I got mine used for $500. Not that expensive. Then you get a $50 adapter for Berkey System to use it with the Glidecam and you're set.

Glidecam sells their Smooth Shooter Support System vest and arm for $1400, which is more expensive. It's also a piece junk and not nearly as good as the Steadicam vest and arm at nearly half the price.
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Thanks for this Eric. I am almost just considering buying the OSMO because of the hassle a glidecam can be - weight, storage, setup time. I appreciate your help though and will keep this in mind for the future. I still have the damn thing and I've tried it on a DSLR and it's a lot more usable. I just can't see myself setting up my C100 on the steadicam every time I want to get one or two shots in comparison to what the OSMO can achieve.
 
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