GH13 GH5 Rumors

[Zephyrnoid]

compact point and shoot film cameras from the 70's and 80's

Sure enough as these P&S FILM cameras did not compete with SLR's AT ALL.
My CP500K however and later the CP8800 did ALL THIS >
So there is a much closer correlation between digital P&S and digital SLR than between film-based P&S of the 80's ( the only one I can recall from the 70's was my Olympus Penf 1/2frame) and film SLR's

You misunderstood. I only counted DIGITAL Nikons based on Phil's list at DPReview.com

You also missed my point about what I was trying to say.

Modern mass production JUST IN TIME (JIT) fabrication means the makers can spit this stuff out every 6 months. In the in the 80's and prior less than three years was unheard of -prior to CNC and robotic assembly and the CAD designs .
So what is my point? Today manufacturers can stick the little incremental upgrades under our noses and we JUMP!
Users have barely gotten acquainted with the latest camera before a new upgrade is hot on its heels. It's hilarious!

Pre 2000's, it was a much longer lead time and that meant that end user ROI was much more feesible and I assure you, there were few trust fund babies for the manufacturers to wean off before the Millennials came of age

But why take my word for it. Look at Panasonic's behavior. A G6 , 10 months after the GH3 with an open admission that the GH3 was rushed to market.

No point in getting angry at ME. I'm just the messenger.

 

[Zephyrnoid]

...in your humble opinion, what is lacking in the g6 that you think you should get for $750 ? ...or better yet, what is lacking in the bmpcc for a grand that you think they owe us ? Personally, I agree with you somewhat , for example, when it comes to programs or even computers. Enough is enough and I don't want to upgrade another time. But in terms of cameras , I think the progress is amazing in the last 3 years. Maybe you'd do better to get a s16 on ebay . They haven't changed in 25 years !

I've had a similar 'fight' when Adobe ( a long time pal of mine since PS v 2.0 ) announced that CS was NO MORE and CC was the replacement. My point? Adobe realized that there was no point in stamping DVD's and printing HUGE manuals in boxed sets anymore. So they decided instead to rob us incrementally and hold us at gunpoint if we didn't maintain monthly subscriptions!
I exploded!!

My point is not lost on you- "I agree with you somewhat , for example, when it comes to programs or even computers. Enough is enough and I don't want to upgrade another time."

But you see, the same thing is happening with cameras.

TOO MANY users are willing to upgrade too soon so the manufacturers keep spitting out these incremental upgrades.
I shudder to think of the COLLECTIONS of cameras that some people must have!

It's fine by me, I don't play that game until my gear dies or the client says. "No that 8MP P&S is not good enough" THEY HAVEN"T DONE THAT. EVER!

But I don't wish to be branded a Troll. You all get my point. And I thank those that are subsidizing the manufacturers because when they finally get to the point of 'stability' I'll jump in and will have saved thousands of dollars in upgrades thanks to all of YOU

 

[kurth]

...you didn't answer my question...and the same thing is NOT happening with cameras ....a program and a camera are not in the slightest related....but I guess you're busy watching vhs movies on that 19" zenith !...btw....you can buy a gh1 on ebay for about $200 bucks ...and it might surprise you how different the image is from a 1/3" camcorder....or maybe not.

...and you're not the messenger for anything. It's just your opinion.

 

[Bern Caughey]

Mahmoud El-Darwish (aka Zephyrnoid),

Perhaps Troll is too strong a term, but you endlessly complain about a camera system it seems you neither own, nor use, & disparage those filmmakers who do. These are common features of your posts throughout these forums, so perhaps not.

And while your saving up for the "perfect" camera be aware many others are busy making money with the latest. I know every camera I've owned has paid for itself many times over, but even if they didn't, & simply helped achieve my vision, I'd consider that excellent ROI.

Regards,
B

PS Americans are not addicted to "newness", but we are the nation most comfortable with it, & so far it has served us well.

 

[malibudutchie]

just because you may only shoot student narrative films with the GH3 it doesn't mean you have the right to assume that other people's real world experiences are any less than yours or not important.

You really have to stop assuming everyone is an amateur or beginner apart from you and settle down. Not all cameras have YOUR problem. What I'm offering is a workaround - use the beep or timer till it's fixed, don't come on here and say this camera is not operational. Some of us have shot run and gun and I've been around since Umatic days so don't preach about not using monitors and not knowing what functions are active. You missed some shots, that's you. What I understand from buttoning off and on quickly (within a second) is that a lot of cameras will not IMMEDIATELY go to record while your last shot is writing to the card. If you knew that you wouldn't keep doing it. Point us to your website and lets have a look at your work.

 

[vtwiz]

You really have to stop assuming everyone is an amateur or beginner apart from you and settle down. Not all cameras have YOUR problem. What I'm offering is a workaround - use the beep or timer till it's fixed, don't come on here and say this camera is not operational. Some of us have shot run and gun and I've been around since Umatic days so don't preach about not using monitors and not knowing what functions are active. You missed some shots, that's you. What I understand from buttoning off and on quickly (within a second) is that a lot of cameras will not IMMEDIATELY go to record while your last shot is writing to the card. If you knew that you wouldn't keep doing it. Point us to your website and lets have a look at your work.

I don't button on and off quickly. The writing to the card is not an issue for me. Please show me where i stated this. I was talking about having to button twice to start recording and that it was not consistent.

So YOUR camera doesn't have my problem. Don't come on here saying that my points are ridiculous because YOUR camera doesn't have my problem. If you can't relate to the issue, you have nothing to contribute. Others are having the same issues as me. Your workarounds that you kindly suggested dont work!

My reference to not using monitors was that you obviously didn't due to you not realising that the workaround you so arrogantly suggested didn't work.
Where did I call you an amateur? Just because I said you may not have used an external EVF does not mean I think your an amateur.

So, you have no experience of mine and other people's issues. Keep out of it.

considering your most vocal flaming of my work practices relating to an issue you have not experienced, why should I give you a link to my work? So you can talk crap about things you don't know? And what would it add to the discussion here. The Rec button issue is not reflected in the final edits.

 

[TheDingo]

PS Americans are not addicted to "newness", but we are the nation most comfortable with it

...Not trying to start a silly fight, but I think Japan has us all beat when it comes to consumers flocking to everything new. Several friends who lived in Japan were shocked at how many perfectly functional electronic devices, mopeds, classical guitars, you name it, were all thrown in the trash because they were a few years old and people only wanted to own the lastest version. ( One friend kept wondering if there was some economical way he could ship Japanese "trash" to North America and make a killing selling it over here )

 

[keylight]

You misunderstood. I only counted DIGITAL Nikons based on Phil's list at DPReview.com

You also missed my point about what I was trying to say.

[SNIP]

Pre 2000's, it was a much longer lead time and that meant that end user ROI was much more feesible and I assure you, there were few trust fund babies for the manufacturers to wean off before the Millennials came of age

No, I think you've missed the point.

What's the big difference between pre-2000 and post-2000? Film.

PRE-2000

Pre-2000, there were a a lot of big changes with film cameras, but they happened in two separate and distinct areas.

The first were changes to the camera: SLR was a huge change from rangefinder cameras. Autofocus was a huge change. Built in flash was big. A gigantic change was adding electronic metering. Then in the 80s/90s you had matrix metering introduced that added the ability to meter a scene based on camera distance. And sure enough, manufacturers introduced new models when each of these new features came out.

Separate from all of this was the sensor (and recording media) - the film. Every so often there might be a new senor (type of film) released that had better color, or deeper color saturation, or more sensitivity to light, or higher resolution. The great was that when this new sensor came out, you could keep using your existing camera to get all the new features it offered. Of course, the bad thing is that you could only take 36 photos before you had to put in a new sensor. And you had to wait to see how the shots came out. And processing the shots was a real pain. But hey, at least you didn't need to upgrade your camera body.


POST-2000

Then we had the introduction of CCDs (and later CMOS) in place of film - the biggest change of all. All of the added electronics they'd been putting in cameras for focusing and metering, was perfect for digital. They didn't have to re-invent these technologies, although they did have to make changes.

During the 2000s the sensors got more sophisticated, capable of taking photos in lower light and higher resolution. And each time there was an advance, there was a new camera released. You couldn't just pop in a new sensor like you could a roll of tilm.

And cameras started to get smaller. And they started to shoot video. And memory card sizes started to get smaller. And smaller. And smaller. And you could fit more video on a memory card. On the image side, internal bandwidth and write speeds got faster and RAW became a real choice for shooting. On the video side, codecs and compression got better. Newer codecs required more processing power than image processors in older cameras could handle.

So you couldn't just pop in a new image sensor (roll of film) to take advantage of advances in the imaging device, you had to change out most of the internals of the camera. That means an upgrade.

Someday I suspect we'll finally get the perfect camera that we all want - the one that will let us reuse the body (like we reuse our lenses) and simply pop in a new imaging pack like we used to pop in a roll of film. Rather than spend $1000 (or $5000) for a whole new camera, we'll be able to spend a fraction of that for the image pack.

America taught Japan to be greedy and release products as soon as they contained INCREMENTAL improvements.

So I think this statement is pretty clearly BS, although of course you're still entitled to your opinion. But I've got to say tat we failed miserably to teach them this. I mean, I can't for the life of me understand why they released dSLRs using a lens mount that allowed us to use all of our existing lenses, instead of making us buy a whole new system of lenses. The savings that comes from not having to buy and then process rolls of film, would still gotten people to switch to digital cameras (well, at least once they released a real digital camera that wasn't a beta). So they really f'ed up in the lens department, at least according to your logic (and continue to do so each time they release a new body without changing the lens mount).

Will I buy the next GH__? Honestly, I unless it has RAW video or 4K, almost certainly not. I just won't need it. If it has either of those I could see making the move, even if they haven't gotten everything perfect. For me it would make sense.

Is RAW or 4K possible with the GH3? Who knows. Maybe it's possible with a lot of work. Might be quite buggy/flaky. Might shorten the life of the camera. Imagine if Panasonic had given us either of those in the GH3 and there were all kinds of recording problems.

If they did something like that, people would probably bash them for releasing a beta camera.

Then again, your position is that they should have waited until they had the perfect camera ready and then release it. Of course, what you would describe as a perfect camera today, won't be perfect tomorrow and you'll just gripe about how they should have waited some more.

 

[keylight]

...Not trying to start a silly fight, but I think Japan has us all beat when it comes to consumers flocking to everything new. Several friends who lived in Japan were shocked at how many perfectly functional electronic devices, mopeds, classical guitars, you name it, were all thrown in the trash because they were a few years old and people only wanted to own the lastest version. ( One friend kept wondering if there was some economical way he could ship Japanese "trash" to North America and make a killing selling it over here )

So true. I lived and worked in Japan for a year when I was much younger, and I would ride around with friends after work on the night before sodai gomi day and pick up 1 or 2 year old TVs and VCRs. Every couple of months I upgraded my TV for free. The TVs could only be put out for these once a month pickups. VCRs could go out anytime because they were smaller. But people tended to upgrade them together so you would find them together, cables and all (although remotes could be harder to locate).

Love the entry on urbandictionary.com for gomi:

1. gomi

japanese noun: means rubbish or trash
Sodai Gomi Night, means "Big trash night" the night you see lots of Gaijin running around picking up old discarded electronics to ship over to their poorer relatives back home in (insert technology deprived western nation here eg: .au)

 

[Zephyrnoid]

Futile thread. All I see are Shills for The Consumer DSLR/M43 cameras butting heads with my clearly alien POV . Who cares! Keep buying them incrementals if it makes you feel better.
I'm not saving up my money - I have tons of cash that I simply will not use to subsidize betaware. betaware gone amuck is a part of a continuing theme of planned obsolescence that has increasingly gained traction in the digital age, particularly in software/hardware synergy.

From Wikipedia...

A Digicam is NOTHING but a computer (CPU, Inputs, Storage, Display and Output) connected to a lens and running software. It is as we used to opine in the 90's... 'A convergent device' that can be upgraded via firmware updates versus analog devices that simply had to be replaced in total.
The big twist in the 2000's is the hobbling of HW so as to force a complete HW replacement for the sake of continuous demand on behalf of the manufacturer.

So really, there is NO difference between a laptop with a built in camera, a smartphone with a camera and a DSLR! Wow! what a revelation.
Now, If you made it that far- you should 'get it' without anymore lectures from me. If not.............

Thanks for listening
TTFN

 

[Zephyrnoid]

Mahmoud El-Darwish (aka Zephyrnoid),

Perhaps Troll is too strong a term, but you endlessly complain about a camera system it seems you neither own, nor use, & disparage those filmmakers who do. These are common features of your posts throughout these forums, so perhaps not.

And while your saving up for the "perfect" camera be aware many others are busy making money with the latest. I know every camera I've owned has paid for itself many times over, but even if they didn't, & simply helped achieve my vision, I'd consider that excellent ROI.

Regards,
B

PS Americans are not addicted to "newness", but we are the nation most comfortable with it, & so far it has served us well.

LOL. My partner, Mahmoud El-Darwish! Hey is this a real names forum? I'm Aten Imago if you must know.
Americans are addicted to toys and gadgetry. Without this fact, Asia would starve. Americans MUST have a new wardrobe every season, without this, China and Goodwill would starve !
Thank goodness cars are still expensive enough or we'd be buying a new one EVERY YEAR and Asia would never be able to keep up with demand LOL !!!!!!!

 

[keylight]

Americans are addicted to toys and gadgetry. Without this fact, Asia would starve. Americans MUST have a new wardrobe every season, without this, China and Goodwill would starve !

Sorry, but wher on earth do you live? A "new wardrobe every season"? Your view of the US is clearly very media driven - not reality based at all.

Futile thread.

And finally we agree on something! :thumbsup:

I've been wondering why you created this thread since I first asked:

So, um. Why share such a groan worthy non-rumor?

Still, it did give me a chance to share a clip from Deadwood. So thanks for that!

 

[Thomas Smet]

I'm sorry but I don't consider the GH3 a beta release camera. This is one heck of a machine for $1,200.00 and capable of some stunning work that puts cameras costing 10x to shame. Is it perfect? Of course not but neither is the OP of this thread.

Anybody who expects a $10,000.00 camera for $1,200.00 is just nuts and in the wrong business. The GH3 is an amazing camera and well worth every single penny. Now some may not consider the upgrade worth it but that has more to do with the GH2 already being a great camera.

I honestly do not understand this cheap lazy mentality some people have today about cameras. $1,200.00 is not a camera investment. That is pocket change even for somebody who just does it as a hobby. No point in history has such amazing video quality been at this price point yet more people complain about the price. Grow up.

 

[Zephyrnoid]

Anybody who expects a $10,000.00 camera for $1,200.00 is just nuts and in the wrong business. The GH3 is an amazing camera and well worth every single penny. Now some may not consider the upgrade worth it but that has more to do with the GH2 already being a great camera.

"We are approaching the point where the cost of the camera vs. the quality of the return negates the worthiness of investing in a $40K system. Further, what people want is ease of use. The Alexa is not just successful because of the quality of the output, but also because the ergonomics and workflow is so easy. Most producers still only need/want 1080p deliverables"
----Clayton Burkhart.

​

It's mosty related to Moore's Law +. The plus '+' because Moore's Law was restricted primarily to CPU's. The '+' is how Processor Speed advances have driven breakthrough in the rest of the component mix. No one is apologizing for such windfalls . My MAIN gripe is the minimized modularity in the industry and if I had time, I'd write a paper on how that exists in other industries as well ( Automotive is a prime example) .
RED Digital, to their credit, blazed the way for a modular system but unless I'm mistake, couldn't follow through and ended up executing full rebuilds.

The ideal Prosumer/Pro camera line is modular in the sense that it's like a Hassy system. The sensor housing is removable, upgradable, just as lenses are interchangeable. Red caught on to that. But what about the larger market?

Well. I suspect , not sure here but suspect that the logic has been..

"The body chassis costs us next to nothing to tool and build. It's less than 10% of the cost of the overall body, so why bother creating a separate sensor housing. The body of a DSLR IS the sensor housing with a lens mount.
So what if the end user ends up collecting sensor housings that are entire bodies. They don't care as long as the FEATURES list is where they want them to be. etc etc..."

 

[stoneinapond]

It seems to me that the arrival of the G6 and the GX7 bode extremely well for the upcoming GH5 which, even if it only has the improvements within these two cameras, will be a great addition.

Although I am sure there will be much more.

 

[keylight]

Zephyrnoid,

You don't know who I am, and I don't know who you are. We can only form our opinions about each other (and each other's opinions) based on what we say here and how we deal with one another. I've certainly formed a pretty solid opinion about how much weight to give to things you write on these boards, especially after the Nikon numbers you posted.

But I've got to ask, why do you keep quoting this guy Clayton Burkhart? Is this some name I should know? Someone important that's got a pulse on the industry? Or just some guy you've got a tech crush on? In your signature and now in the body of your post??

And maybe I'm stupid, but I really don't get the quote.

"We are approaching the point where the cost of the camera vs. the quality of the return negates the worthiness of investing in a $40K system. Further, what people want is ease of use. The Alexa is not just successful because of the quality of the output, but also because the ergonomics and workflow is so easy. Most producers still only need/want 1080p deliverables"
----Clayton Burkhart.​

He seems to be saying the it isn't worth it to invest in a $40K system just for the quality of the return (implying that cheap systems can deliver quality) but instead invest in an $80K system?! Why? Ease of use.

Seriously ridiculous.

Not only don't I get the quote, I don't get where he said the quote. Must be from some video somewhere, since a search for the text doesn't seem to turn it up anywhere (except in your quotes).

Can you provide a link? I'd really like to see it in context as opposed to the short snippet.

 

[kurth]

I just want to add that as soon as the g6 takes it's first price dip....I'm gonna be subsidizing those pany beta testers .....and as soon as the bmpcc gets all the bumps ironed out, I'll be subsidizing those beta testers as well . No early adoptions...just solid beta testing. Maybe one day , I'll buy that perfect camera....then again, maybe not.....although me thinks cameras are kinda of like life...it's the journey that's important .....they were never meant to be perfect !

 

[vtwiz]

It seems to me that the arrival of the G6 and the GX7 bode extremely well for the upcoming GH5 which, even if it only has the improvements within these two cameras, will be a great addition.

Although I am sure there will be much more.

Considering Panasonics product cycles with the GH cameras, the GH5 isn't due to be released until late 2014. That's over a year away. So much can (and will) happen in regards to camera development with other manufacturers in that year that Panasonic can't really expect the GH5 to be an amalgamation of the current GH3, G6 and GX7.

 

[stoneinapond]

So much can (and will) happen in regards to camera development with other manufacturers in that year that Panasonic can't really expect the GH5 to be an amalgamation of the current GH3, G6 and GX7.

So much is already happening, we are just not privy to the details. Also it's entirely possible that we will see an earlier rollout of the new GH although I wouldn't place any bets on that scenario.

Either way, I said it bodes well because despite the people for whom nothing is ever right, I believe Panasonic wants to stay competitive and will continue to do so.

 

[keylight]

So much is already happening, we are just not privy to the details. Also it's entirely possible that we will see an earlier rollout of the new GH although I wouldn't place any bets on that scenario.

Either way, I said it bodes well because despite the people for whom nothing is ever right, I believe Panasonic wants to stay competitive and will continue to do so.

The 14mm and 20mm fixed are nice, but I'd love to see them introduce a real set of prime lenses geared towards video. The new Leica 42.5mm f/1.2 lens looks fantastic, and I hope they continue working on rounding out their lens lineup. I'd love to have a parafocal version of the 14-140mm at a f/2.8 or f/3.5.

Lenses are the #1 way for a company to signal to photographers and filmmakers that the company is serious about meeting their needs. And it's vital to staying competitive.