Erik Naso
Veteran
I think zebras are your best tool if you don't have a monitor with waveform. Don't under expose. It makes a really noisy image.
GH4 GH4 V-Log FREE !!
- Thread starter Ted Ramasola
- Start date
Ted Ramasola
Veteran
the 80% zebra is when your measuring the highlights. the 50 or 55 % zebra is for a graycard. So what "testers"(I'll use that term since all of us are still testing) are using now is say, put 80 to zebra1 and 50 or 55 on zebra 2. For run and gunning where gray card is usually out of th question, the 80% is used to force you to "overexpose" as what most testers say we should do to get cleaner shadows.
I've now done countless tests with the VLog, and most of the conclusions of current users are pretty much spot on.
What I found was if you shoot in very good light, either outside or inside with decent video lights and overexpose with zebras set at 60 and 80 approx, then the noise especially and also the magenta blocking wont be a problem really and it does produce some wonderful images, best I've seen from the GH4 in many cases, but its definitely a double edged sword.
As its been said by others if you shoot where there are a lot of midtones and softer shadows in mid light, you will see the magenta blocking all over the place, grey or light brown walls with shadows on them are an absolute delight (being sarcastic here) magenta blocking on them pretty much everywhere.
Plus some are saying its the varicam LUT that is the problem, this is only partly true at best, you can see this problem in the original VLog file, I have done a ton of A/B's and its there in the original untreated 8 bit file as well, but its less noticeable, now other LUTS may bring it out less, thats probably true, but they wont get rid of it cause its there in the original 8 bit file....end of story, and anyone that does some serious tests will see this immediately.
Now 10 bit with other LUTS may be enough improvement to overcome or mask the problem enough...I dont know.
But to me it appears that LPowells analysis based on Barry Greens statements are spot on, its not what everyone likes to hear, but I feel LPowells conclusions were exactly right,
and it appears that even after 6 months of testing Panansonic have released a flawed version of VLog, and paying customers (I havent bought mine yet) are entitled to feel very pissed off, they should not have used the varicam mapped version with the 79 IRE high end rolloff, they should have mapped a GH4 version from scratch.
God knows they had enough time to do it (...and Yes I know what software writing involves, I develop 3d worlds and call up scripts from scratch...I know how complex it can get)
But whats even more amazing is not a single Beta tester appears to have mentioned this publicly, its totally unbelievable, some of the people that have tested this Log profile know a lot, have a lot of experience under their belt, and the very fact they did not notice or point this out on forums beggars belief.
Panasonic have really blundered badly on this and its not going to do them any good, face it...its a half developed product that they had tons of time to get right, and either the beta testers did not do their job...or Panasonic totally ignored them.
Some already have the release version and they say its exactly the same and gives the same result, so probably best to not expect any miracles there.
This is an amazing exercise in how not to do something by Panasonic, its not going to help them in the face of aggressive competition from other manufacturers and to be honest...at the very least it will cast some doubt over the observational powers of many of the beta testers as well.
At the end of the day we have a one part really nice cinematic looking image from VLog that has a lot of potential when shot in the right light and with perfect exposure etc...and the other part dogs turd with magenta vomit everywhere...choose your poison wisely LOL!!!
Talk about truth being stranger than fiction...jeez!!
What I found was if you shoot in very good light, either outside or inside with decent video lights and overexpose with zebras set at 60 and 80 approx, then the noise especially and also the magenta blocking wont be a problem really and it does produce some wonderful images, best I've seen from the GH4 in many cases, but its definitely a double edged sword.
As its been said by others if you shoot where there are a lot of midtones and softer shadows in mid light, you will see the magenta blocking all over the place, grey or light brown walls with shadows on them are an absolute delight (being sarcastic here) magenta blocking on them pretty much everywhere.
Plus some are saying its the varicam LUT that is the problem, this is only partly true at best, you can see this problem in the original VLog file, I have done a ton of A/B's and its there in the original untreated 8 bit file as well, but its less noticeable, now other LUTS may bring it out less, thats probably true, but they wont get rid of it cause its there in the original 8 bit file....end of story, and anyone that does some serious tests will see this immediately.
Now 10 bit with other LUTS may be enough improvement to overcome or mask the problem enough...I dont know.
But to me it appears that LPowells analysis based on Barry Greens statements are spot on, its not what everyone likes to hear, but I feel LPowells conclusions were exactly right,
and it appears that even after 6 months of testing Panansonic have released a flawed version of VLog, and paying customers (I havent bought mine yet) are entitled to feel very pissed off, they should not have used the varicam mapped version with the 79 IRE high end rolloff, they should have mapped a GH4 version from scratch.
God knows they had enough time to do it (...and Yes I know what software writing involves, I develop 3d worlds and call up scripts from scratch...I know how complex it can get)
But whats even more amazing is not a single Beta tester appears to have mentioned this publicly, its totally unbelievable, some of the people that have tested this Log profile know a lot, have a lot of experience under their belt, and the very fact they did not notice or point this out on forums beggars belief.
Panasonic have really blundered badly on this and its not going to do them any good, face it...its a half developed product that they had tons of time to get right, and either the beta testers did not do their job...or Panasonic totally ignored them.
Some already have the release version and they say its exactly the same and gives the same result, so probably best to not expect any miracles there.
This is an amazing exercise in how not to do something by Panasonic, its not going to help them in the face of aggressive competition from other manufacturers and to be honest...at the very least it will cast some doubt over the observational powers of many of the beta testers as well.
At the end of the day we have a one part really nice cinematic looking image from VLog that has a lot of potential when shot in the right light and with perfect exposure etc...and the other part dogs turd with magenta vomit everywhere...choose your poison wisely LOL!!!
Talk about truth being stranger than fiction...jeez!!
Dan Keeble
Well-known member
Something tells me that testers can be afraid to tell the plain truth sometimes (what if Panasonic will cut them from free bodies?)
.
yes, i perfectly agree! it's amazing, how well he could describe most of the actual problems (tonal range limitation + compression) just on the published design patterns and a lot of experience in advance. well educated critical voices like this are much more important than all this exclusive beta testers doing a dirty job for someone else.
you should not underestimate the power of public beta testing. i know it very well from linux development. the feedback from a critical user base are usually much more rigorous and differentiated than any review by experts about commercial products! well, the big players will never change their attitude and participate this creative test and development base, but it would make things much better and solve real user problems/needs a lot faster...
that's the question, i'm really puzzled about? is this horrible amateurish profile really a panasonic product?
remember a few month back about this new USB tethering in one of the last firmware releases. it's a nice feature. well, it could be better in some aspect, but we should happy to have it finally. the interesting thing about this very enhencement was the way it was marketed. there only was this single link to an extremely simple and overpriced commercial product from a business parter of panasonic to use it. and this whole LUT disaster looks quite similar to me. the questionable quality of this improvement and the dubious way it was sold looks more, like a small group of creative LUT hackers, close to the formes GH2 hacking community, could have designed this crap... but, could the this really be true?
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Yep in my line of building and selling 3d products...to a much smaller base than Panasonic of course, but to a critical and sometimes very vocal user base.. it often takes up to 18 months or more for me to develop and test a product properly.
That said I would not dare to release something as half finished, as amateurish as this, my reputation would be in tatters...plus add to that the fact that it has no documentation, and no specific GH4 LUT, and not even designed ground up for the GH4's DR specifically, yet they had months and months to do it and many beta testers. most of which said nothing
The mind simply boggles...what a mess!! If it wasnt so tragic it would be funny!!
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Time for Panny to release VLOG-L2 with corrections, KEEPING VLOG-L as is for what it does, AND VLOG-L3 created/mapped specifically for the GH4 sensor's bandwidth. The creation process foundation is there, time to expand, grow, improve things. How about CINED2 and NATURAL2 with corrected coloration as well?
walkaboutcamera
Active member
It is not a matter of just remapping to fill the vlog l to use the full ire range. Vlog l extends the dynamic range by reaching into the shadows rather than the highlights. Or that is my understanding. To test it set your exposure using one of the normal profiles. Do this in manual mode. Best to use a grey card that fills the frame. Get a a good narrow histogram. Now with these settings switch to vlog l. Dollars to donuts I bet you there is not much difference. When using slog2 the histogram moves to the the left doing the same exercise, to make room for more highlight info. Sony did it right and most of the time you can get good results with 8 bit. Panasonic's management have their heads suck to far up where the sun don't shine.
if Panasonic remaps to use the full range and you shoot to preserve the highlights you will have the same or worse noise problems that everyone complains about when using dynamic.
if Panasonic remaps to use the full range and you shoot to preserve the highlights you will have the same or worse noise problems that everyone complains about when using dynamic.
RedChalice
Active member
Could it be possible that this "error" by Panasonic was intentional afterall? What if this free v log isn't the same as the paid version.. Maybe an older beta version instead or something..
The free version cant be read properly by the histogram, but on the paid version Panasonic says the histogram works. What if they did this to give people a taste of v log to get a buzz going..
Has anyone received their activation code and tested the v log not saved into a custom profile?
The free version cant be read properly by the histogram, but on the paid version Panasonic says the histogram works. What if they did this to give people a taste of v log to get a buzz going..
Has anyone received their activation code and tested the v log not saved into a custom profile?
Batutta
Major Contributor
Someone on personal-view.com got their code and says it's the same exact v-log.
brandonanthony1
Well-known member
Just took a crack at VLOG-L
I'm liking it.
Xrayspecs
Active member
Just curious: Why are you selling? Have you upgraded to the Ninja Assassin or Black Magic Video Assist?
bigmouthmedia
Active member
I was too but then for the price, you only get the machine - no chargers, no battery, no case, nothing - and by the time you outfit it, it becomes more expensive than a Shogun.
joe12south
Veteran
That's an exaggeration. You have to similarly equip the Shogun.
dustylense
Veteran
Actually, it's not an exaggeration.
PIX-5 recorder: $1395
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1137279-REG/video_devices_pix_e5_5_4k_recording.html
Pix-E5 kit (case, cables, battery charger, SSD carriages): $1100
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...able_video_recorder_kit.html/pageID/accessory
Shogun:$1995
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1046387-REG/atomos_atomshogun_shogun_7_4k_hdmi.html
Make sure to look at "Whats in the box".
The Shogun kit comes complete with battery and charger, case, SSD sleds, XLR breakout cable, SSD docking station, basically all you need to get going.
Doug_EX
Well-known member
You're 100% right Dusty. But people thinking of purchasing an external recorder should keep in mind that Video Devices (Sound Devices) make some of the tougher (well built) piece of equipment. Also, the 2 battery slots on the Pix-e is a big + too. When I look at my Blade (though not poorly made) and compare it to my MixPreD, the difference is night and day. I wouldn't worry about dropping my SD MixpreD on the floor...my Blade, well...better off staying in may hand 
If you take into account durability the Pix-e is probably cheaper on the long run...well, maybe not that long.
If you take into account durability the Pix-e is probably cheaper on the long run...well, maybe not that long.