Getting rid of the documentary look

[kenn michael]

It'll come. The 7D has only been out for a few weeks. Give it some more months, and you'll see some stuff that connects with your aesthetic. Happens like this with every camera. Happened with RED. Happened with the HVX. 5D was different because the first footage was Reverie which was a really produced piece. At least with the 5D, you'll eventually get 24fps so you won't have to do the frame conversion which takes forever.

Personal visual preference is sometimes very specific. You like the full frame look. Some people don't. Buy the tool that touches your visual sense of excellence. It's different for everybody.

The Ralph Lauren stuff was just played back slow to get to the 24fps, so no conversion was done. If it was synced sound, it might've not been as smooth.

 

[mhood]

I don't offhand have links to 7D footage that has that much CC and is that shallow DOF but I do have a quote from a professional colorist who works with footage from every type of camera:

"I think its a somewhat flawed idea that the 7D is not a professional camera and that it well sucks....it doesn't. I think there are some firmware things going on the moment that are curiously tweaking the blacks and mids in the overall tonal range but once corrected the footage looks amazing."

Your concern seems to be one of "will a 7D have this Ralph Lauren look if shot with the same grade of glass and processed with the same professional techniques?" I think the colorist answers your question.

 

[Duke M.]

One thing I noted in a lot of my 7D footage, and that posted by Barry, is that the 7D colors are muddier than the still photos. The still images look spectacular.

Changing the gamma in post along the general lines of .8 to .85 for each color channel matches them up pretty well.

The biggest thing is the 5D has been out for while. The 7D just came out and they aren't the same. Give it a little time for people to invent custom presets or grading formulas and it will look better. If I can match my four favorite A1 presets I'll be happy. :engel017:

That being said the 7D isn't a camera that can do everything. Plan to not use fast pans, or to follow fast movement. Don't assume autofocus will work for lots of movement. Don't shoot backgrounds with repeating backgrounds before checking for moire patterns. Use it for its strengths, not its weaknesses.

 

[Anthonyb]

One thing I noted in a lot of my 7D footage, and that posted by Barry, is that the 7D colors are muddier than the still photos. The still images look spectacular.

Changing the gamma in post along the general lines of .8 to .85 for each color channel matches them up pretty well.

The biggest thing is the 5D has been out for while. The 7D just came out and they aren't the same. Give it a little time for people to invent custom presets or grading formulas and it will look better. If I can match my four favorite A1 presets I'll be happy. :engel017:

That being said the 7D isn't a camera that can do everything. Plan to not use fast pans, or to follow fast movement. Don't assume autofocus will work for lots of movement. Don't shoot backgrounds with repeating backgrounds before checking for moire patterns. Use it for its strengths, not its weaknesses.

Repeating backgrounds.... I'll be shooting in a forest. Uh-oh?

 

[kenn michael]

Forest is different. Duke is talking about things like fine stripes in a striped shirt, or textured fabric that has a fine pattern. 5D has the exact same problem with this.

 

[Anthonyb]

Forest is different. Duke is talking about things like fine stripes in a striped shirt, or textured fabric that has a fine pattern. 5D has the exact same problem with this.

Here is some eye candy I shot with a rebel and a 50mm f/1.4 Canon lens. I'll be shooting a commercial in November with the same clothing.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=15738&id=305200529&l=d92466d3f1

I'm guessing that I'll be having moire/aliasing problems with the black tule material shown in the first outfit, if I use the 5D or the 7D. Thoughts?

 

[Kholi]

Hey Anthony,

Kenn already touched on this and some others did as well, but what you're looking for isn't something that's done with a camera, honestly. Perhaps the super thin depth of the images is a preference you like, it doesn't translate to "Cinematic" to me. What looks cinematic about the person's footage that you've shown is composition, exposure, editing, sound.

That's what separates the look of material. The stuff you're seeing on Vimeo is just, well, stuff for the most part. It'll be a while, more than likely, before we see anything truly cinematic, as I haven't see much from the 5D as well. The example you love isn't one I would personally consider incredible because it's not my taste but even that one took a while to show up.

So, if you're concerned about a camera producing this effect, just know that it's not the camera. It's all about the production. I've seen RED footage that screamed amateur, because it was amateur.

Ask Kenn to see some of his RED footage. >=P It'll make you want to shoot nothing BUT REd.

 

[PaPa]

I wish that were the case, but check out Camille's page on vimeo:

http://www.vimeo.com/7118904


I realize there is color correcting done, but I have yet to see a single clip shot on the 7D that looks close to the quality of Camille's work.

If you have any examples of 7D Footage looking that good, please post. I would love to buy the 7D and save myself some cash, but the quality of the 5D in video mode is outstanding.

Definitely is some beautiful footage, but man, aren't you guys tired of seeing these super gradings coming out of the camera? We aren't all going to be shooting the next matrix.

 

[Kholi]

Definitely is some beautiful footage, but man, aren't you guys tired of seeing these super gradings coming out of the camera? We aren't all going to be shooting the next matrix.

Eh, I don't think the grade on her footage is too extreme. It still looks pretty good to me, even if it's not natural it still "feels" natural, or in context with the content.

 

[PaPa]

it definitely works for the piece. Im just saying you can't take that kind of grading and shoot something like "Role Models". Would love to see some more natural looking footage coming out of these cameras.

 

[Kholi]

it definitely works for the piece. Im just saying you can't take that kind of grading and shoot something like "Role Models". Would love to see some more natural looking footage coming out of these cameras.

Role Models is still graded, though, like any feature film. It's all in context.

I'm not a fan of heavy grading, by the way, just is what it is, though. The footage I put up is all out of camera and I'm happy with the contrast and color.

 

[Nitsuj]

I seem to recall a post not long ago where somebody threw up a video wanting to know why his example was more video like despite same settings and lens than another video he found. I looked at the video and only difference was it had music and was edited. There are a lot who seem to lose sight of the big picture. It's not so much the technical aspects to give you that "cinematic" experience but the combination of the arts to bring it together. It also takes artistic vision to put it all together in an expressive way. If it was as easy as getting a camera, adjusting settings, and shooting than everybody would be a good filmmaker. Too often credit is given to the equipment when it should always be given to the filmmaker. Least this is how I see it.

 

[PaPa]

Role Models is still graded, though, like any feature film. It's all in context.

I'm not a fan of heavy grading, by the way, just is what it is, though. The footage I put up is all out of camera and I'm happy with the contrast and color.

Yes Kholi, i understand it depends on the context, that is not at all the point im trying to make,


Im saying that films like role models, 40 year old virgin, funny people, you name it, all have a much more natural look coming out of them, regardless of the post grading. Yes, i know the grading has something to do with the final output, but then lets also keep in mind that we too have tools to do grading thus we too should be able to achieve similar results:

versus

From what i've seen on this board, most everyone is capable of achieving dramatic looking footage with a grading that goes beyond naturalistic. I would love to start seeing stuff that looks much more natural coming out of these cameras.

 

[Kholi]

You're arguing against yourself by asking people to give them the look YOU want for THEIR project. That's nonsensical. If they feel it fits their project then the natural look you want to see is not the right look....

You're perfectly welcome to do what you're requesting and show us how it looks.

 

[PaPa]

you are a real pain you know that kholi?

It's not for "me" or what I want, its in the spirit of helping anthony discover a way to help him define a look that is not "video" but without having to show him stuff that has grading that could never be used unless the context called for it.

and p.s. drop your ego, telling people "you're arguing against yourself" who do you think you are dude..

Anthony, ill try to get some stills up soon to show you, in my opinion, how the camera can look more or less videoish and why. Just right now, everyone in my house is sick with the flu, thus i have no subjects to test on lol. Give me a bit of time and ill post some stuff that will hopefully help you out with just the way the camera can deliver the image, regardless of all the other things that must be invested in order to make anything "cinematic", such as framing, camera movement, lighting, etc...

 

[Anthonyb]

you are a real pain you know that kholi?

It's not for "me" or what I want, its in the spirit of helping anthony discover a way to help him define a look that is not "video" but without having to show him stuff that has grading that could never be used unless the context called for it.

and p.s. drop your ego, telling people "you're arguing against yourself" who do you think you are dude..

Anthony, ill try to get some stills up soon to show you, in my opinion, how the camera can look more or less videoish and why. Just right now, everyone in my house is sick with the flu, thus i have no subjects to test on lol. Give me a bit of time and ill post some stuff that will hopefully help you out with just the way the camera can deliver the image, regardless of all the other things that must be invested in order to make anything "cinematic", such as framing, camera movement, lighting, etc...

Thanks Papa I'm really looking forward to it. I basically have to make the decision by Monday. Yikes.

 

[Kholi]

it definitely works for the piece. Im just saying you can't take that kind of grading and shoot something like "Role Models". Would love to see some more natural looking footage coming out of these cameras.

This is the post im referring to. You want to see more natral footage. Anthony clearly wants to know what Camille is doing. Show him your footage of a natural stuff and see if he likes it as much??? Doesn't think it looks video?

What her colorist is doing isn't straight out of camera or natural which is why it gets so much attention.

 

[PaPa]

hmm, that fast huh, kk then i guess i could try something else in the meantime to try and help you out. Give me a few minutes.

and just so im on the right track, what will you be shooting with the 7D? Do you want to go heavy grading or something more naturalistic just so that im not arguing a moot point.

 

[Anthonyb]

hmm, that fast huh, kk then i guess i could try something else in the meantime to try and help you out. Give me a few minutes.

and just so im on the right track, what will you be shooting with the 7D? Do you want to go heavy grading or something more naturalistic just so that im not arguing a moot point.

Basically shooting commercials. I need a similar quality to the commercials Camille is putting out there. I have a degree in film production, I understand the editing process, tone, acting, etc very well. The camera is only a tool for me and I want the very best quality tool possible.

 

[PaPa]

ah alright, so you really want to have that style of grading look. Cool. In that case, the 7D would be right up your alley. It can take a decent amount of torture in the grading process before completely breaking apart.

Rest assured that you will be able to get that type of image quality with the right lighting and color grading process, but will you also want the ability to shoot some natural looking footage without the heavy grading process, with the hopes of it not turning out looking "video" ish?