Gemini 4:4:4 Recorder

It makes perfect sense, if you want to utilize the fantastic technology available to us now. Cineform and Prores are huge deals when you are editing a complex project that involves multi-generational transcodes, swapping back and forth from FCP/Premiere/Avid to Nuke, PFtrack, Scratch, round-tripping, etc. Cineform in it's highest bitrate setting remains completely visually indistinguishable from an uncompressed source, even after FIFTY transcodes. Tests have shown degradation of the slightest amounts starts to show up after around 100 generations. It also outperforms HDCAM SR, an acquisition format used on feature films around the world. It is also used in the post-pipeline of several feature films, including a lot of films you can go see in a theater right now. It does all this while reducing the size of your footage and it's bitrate by around 4 times. That's on it's highest bitrate setting, you can use much lower if you aren't expecting to be running through tons of generations. Most of this can also be said for Prores, DNXHD, etc. There is no reason to waste massive amounts of disk space and raid arrays when technology has emerged to solve this very problem. For my workflow, capturing to completely uncompressed only is kind of going backwards in time technology wise. But that's just me and my personal needs, I'm sure this will fit right into a lot of other peoples workflow :) (sorry if this came off as a commercial for cineform, I really didn't mean it that way!)
 
Postmaster said:
Makes no sense in my book to record uncompressed and than transfer to a compressed codec. The benefit of uncompressed recording is a uncompressed workflow from end to end. No codec is so snappy and easy in the timeline as uncompressed, even a older coputer can handle that pretty fine. All you need is a raid.

Space is no issue anymore with the prices for drives in free fall.

The only reason when you want compressed is, if you absolutely have to edit on your laptop.

Frank
Click to expand...

Frank, you may be a rather efficient shooter. But with directors like David Fincher out there doing 100 takes and shooting less than a page a day, there is certainly a need for compression in many workflows. Also, some shops are setup to work with a particluar codec, e.g Prores for FCP and DNxHD for Avid.

I think CD was pretty smart to decide to off-load compression, if one desires it, onto an external computer.
 
Hi,
Gemini seems very good in a good size, good for ..
I'm surprised about how well finished is, but there are an important, very important things i need to said

Does anyone notice the slower transfer speeds of 1.8 SSD's vs 2.5' ?

What kind of internal protocol for the 1.8 SSD's convergent uses, i mean SATA II OR SATA III ?

Do Gemini supports Raid ? (if not, how can it be able to ingest 4:4:4 at 60P without dropping frames )

Any onboard solution for degradation (trim, gc, soft..) ?

What when you fill the drive ? ok, you detach make a backup attach again AND .. loosing frames..
For those about don't know.., when any, i said any SSD fills over time, OR when any SSD fills up about 80-85% of its capacity, write data transfers comes down, and only can be restored A)On some SSDs not all and B)Secure eransing the drive, using Trim or any O.S. Software. I hope the guys at convergent resolve.

I'm sorry guys, but i'm not sure of how that device will be able to record uncompressed 4:4:4 1080 60p or even 1080 24p without need to use, let's say 10 or more SSD to avoid dropping frames.

Check out the article about SSD for video purposes at cinemartin
 
Dear Viddovation,

Yes, Progressive Segmented Frames (PSF) are included.

As is 2:2 Pulldown, and 3:2 Pulldown and other flavors of pulldown removal.
 
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Dear RGDfilms,

The Gemini 4:4:4 accepts 6 to 19 Volts DC.

It draws 8 to 15 watts.

Writting to one SSD takes less power than writing to two drives simultaneously.

Normal backlight levels (for a normal viewing experience) requires the very bright backlight to be dimmed to around 10% or so, thus reducing power draw to around 0.25 watts for the LED backlight.

But, at 100% brightness, using 2.5 watts for the LED Backlights, one can view the monitor in bright, direct sunlight. The 2.5 watts at full brightness contributtes to the 15 watts max power figure, but this will only be used when necessary.

Also, recording at high frame rates and 4:4:4, and to both drives increases the power draw.

For normal use the power draw may be around 10 watts (we need to take some precise measurements).

For the AF100, one could use the AF100 battery and power cable to power both the AF100 and Gemini 4:4:4 (or the nanoFlash). These new items will be on www.nanoFlash.net this afternoon.
 
Dear Friends,

The Gemini 4:4:4 uses non-propriatary, industry standard SSD's. We choose the 1.8" form-factor SSD's.

But, not every 1.8" SSD will work. In order to achieve full uncompressed, we need a high performance SSD.

Manufacturers spec's do not count. We need units that actually work at a certain performance level.

Thus, we have tested many SSD's and found a brand/type that we like. We will test other brands and types also. We have been doing this for months now.

The Gemini 4:4:4 will specifically reject (prevent recording to) SSD's that are not high enough performance.

This is extreme, but the goal is to prevent someone from using a SSD that will not work, one that would cause dropped frames or other problems.

We do not want someone to use a drvie that will not work, then blame the Gemini 4:4:4 (and us) when their footage has problems or is completely lost. Thus, we prevent it from happening in the beginning by only allowing the unit to record on drives that have passed our qualifying process.

Our current plan, subject to change, is to bring in the qualified SSD's, then test them, burn them in, then retest them, to weed out any premature failures.
 
Fohdeesha said:
it only records complete uncompressed, the article states that you can take those complete uncompressed originals and transcode them to the editing codec of your choice.
Click to expand...

Your statement is correct, but I would like to make a little change.

In a camera, the uncompressed images are sent to the codec module for the "First Encode".

This is from uncompressed to compressed thus I use the term "First Encode" instead of "transcode".

With the Gemini 4:4:4, you can take our full uncompressed files, then perform the "First Encode" (not a transcode) in Apple Compressor, Adobe Media Encoder, or other software.

Of course, in this case, the "First Encode" is to the codec of your choice (or to multiple codec choices) and it happens in your computer or laptop, not in the Gemini 4:4:4.
 
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Tony Hernandez said:
Hi,
Gemini seems very good in a good size, good for ..
I'm surprised about how well finished is, but there are an important, very important things i need to said

Does anyone notice the slower transfer speeds of 1.8 SSD's vs 2.5' ?
Click to expand...

Dear Tony,

The Gemini 4:4:4 and the SSD's that we have selected work as a system.

The SSD's that we have selected are not available (at this time) in the retail market.
Thus, if you are looking at specs, then you will not be seeing the drives that we are using.

The drives that we have selected provide a sustained write speed of 260 Megabytes per second.

This is enough for many flavors/frame rates of full uncompressed, but not all.

Thus for some modes, such as 1080p50, 1080p59.94 (typically called 1080p60), we will write to two drives simultaneously.

Please note that one can not really rely on manufacturers specs to determine the actual, real-world number of MBps that they can handle. We do all of this actual testing in our lab.

What kind of internal protocol for the 1.8 SSD's convergent uses, i mean SATA II OR SATA III ?
Click to expand...

We use a SATA III SSD.

What really counts is that we get a full, sustained write speed of well over 200 Megabytes per second, and we do.

We have months of testing already performed, tests that fully stress the SSD.



Do Gemini supports Raid ? (if not, how can it be able to ingest 4:4:4 at 60P without dropping frames )
Click to expand...

We do not use the term Raid, but yes, we need to write to two SSD's simultaneoulsy to support some flavors and bit-rates.

Any onboard solution for degradation (trim, gc, soft..) ?

What when you fill the drive ? ok, you detach make a backup attach again AND .. loosing frames..
For those about don't know.., when any, i said any SSD fills over time, OR when any SSD fills up about 80-85% of its capacity, write data transfers comes down, and only can be restored A)On some SSDs not all and B)Secure eransing the drive, using Trim or any O.S. Software. I hope the guys at convergent resolve.
Click to expand...

The Gemini 4:4:4 supports two SSD's. Unless one is using both simultaneously, we will switch from one drive to another without losing frames.

If you are writing to two drives simultaneously, one has to stop recording when the media fills up.

We have a huge First In - First Out Buffer in the Gemini 4:4:4, but with the data coming at us at well over 100 Megabytes per second in all cases, it is impractical to have a FIFO large enough to allow one to remove both drives an replace them with others.

We will support hot-swapping of single SSD's (provided that they are not in use for recording at the time).


I'm sorry guys, but i'm not sure of how that device will be able to record uncompressed 4:4:4 1080 60p or even 1080 24p without need to use, let's say 10 or more SSD to avoid dropping frames.
Click to expand...

All I can say is that we are doing that everyday now at 1080p24. We have more work to do to implement our code for 1080p60. And no, we will not support 4:4:4 1080p60, only 4:2:2.
 
Hi Dear Dan,

The drives that we have selected provide a sustained write speed of 260 Megabytes per second.
Click to expand...
Is this rate write Sequential tested ? At what GB capacity ?

1.8' SSD at those needed rates are non-existing on today's market and very difficult to be wide adopted ..
I suppose that your guys are aware of the 25nm issues that new SSD drives have in writes, are you noticed ?

Are your 260MB/sec. SSDs 25nm or 34nm ?



We do not use the term Raid, but yes
Click to expand...
So, you double the write sequentiall data transfer without integrated RAID controller ?

If you are writing to two drives simultaneously, one has to stop recording when the media fills up
Click to expand...
I don't understand cause 2 things
A)If simultaneous on 2 drives, when 1 fills up the another ones also is filled up, unless B
B)If you use lets say, 1x128GB and the another 1x256 RAID is no possible

All I can say is that we are doing that everyday now at 1080p24
Click to expand...
Are you test the recordings on a same unique drive on a day per day basis without loosing or dropping frames without trimming or optimize that drive trough external O.S. based applications ?


Somewhere else i read you said
"So instead of building a PC-based recorder, which consumes 60 to 75 watts of power, we designed full-custom hardware drawing 8 to 15 Watts"

I'm happy to listen you that Gemini uses custom non-market available hardware ..
Could you tell to users that if that 8-15W scores includes hdd power consumptions ?

I said this cause i think you know that SSD drives at 256GB typycal consume 4.9W per unit, so 2xSSD is almost a 10W more (so that means Gemini is 25W in usage). I suppose that you know that cinemartin recorders consumes 44W in usage (as it was show on its blog (vs 60-75W you're talking about)).
 
Hey Dan, thanks for the replies. Will it be uncompressed quicktime or some kind of uncompressed picture sequence, like DPX or Tiff? will we be able to have an option for either or?

will the ssd's need to be formatted NTFS or HFS?
 
Fohdeesha said:
It makes perfect sense, if you want to utilize the fantastic technology available to us now. Cineform and Prores are huge deals when you are editing a complex project that involves multi-generational transcodes, swapping back and forth from FCP/Premiere/Avid to Nuke, PFtrack, Scratch, round-tripping, etc. Cineform in it's highest bitrate setting remains completely visually indistinguishable from an uncompressed source, even after FIFTY transcodes. Tests have shown degradation of the slightest amounts starts to show up after around 100 generations. It also outperforms HDCAM SR, an acquisition format used on feature films around the world. It is also used in the post-pipeline of several feature films, including a lot of films you can go see in a theater right now. It does all this while reducing the size of your footage and it's bitrate by around 4 times. That's on it's highest bitrate setting, you can use much lower if you aren't expecting to be running through tons of generations. Most of this can also be said for Prores, DNXHD, etc. There is no reason to waste massive amounts of disk space and raid arrays when technology has emerged to solve this very problem. For my workflow, capturing to completely uncompressed only is kind of going backwards in time technology wise. But that's just me and my personal needs, I'm sure this will fit right into a lot of other peoples workflow :) (sorry if this came off as a commercial for cineform, I really didn't mean it that way!)
Click to expand...

Hi-
On an 8-core Mac Pro we're running 1/2 realtime to transfer (SSD to HDD) and encode to ProRes HQ. So a 30 min video requires 15 minutes total time for the transfer and encode process. A simple transfer (no encode) occurs in 1/3 realtime, or 10 minutes for the same 30 minutes of footage. So, there's not a big time penalty to add the encode operation (using multi-core processors). I suspect the times will be similar for DNxHD and CineForm encode operations.

Recording uncompressed gives you the complete freedom to edit in any CODEC (including uncompressed), at the highest possible quality level.

In most applications you will eventually transfer the footage from the record media (typically Flash) to the edit media (typically HDD). Adding the encode seems like a small step, given the added flexibility of starting with uncompressed.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design
 
Hi guys,

I've been under NDA for a long time, and it was VERY difficult not responding last week and over the weekend to help explain and expand on some of the features and workflow. First, you need to know that I'm not an employee of Convergent Design, but have done (and am doing) some freelance work for them in regards to NAB. I've known them for many years (we're in the same town) and am a happy nanoFlash owner.

First, the size of the Gemini. It's small, almost exactly the size of the SmallHD DP6. You really can't appreciate how small it is in print or from videos. The monitor LCD is 5" vrs the DP6 5.6" screen.

Cost of media. Raise your hands if you were one of the first HVX200 owners, as I was. Anyone remember what a 4gig P2 cost in those days? Or an 8gig? A 256g SSD will give you 33 minutes of uncompressed 24fps 4:2:2 for just a bit more than the cost of those original 4gig P2 cards. And this cost is as high is it ever will be, and only go down.

Copy and transcode... it's a fact of life that you will copy off the SSD card to another harddrive at some point in time, unless you're a big budget feature. If uncompressed is too big a burden or unwanted for your workflow, then do the transcode while you copy. A raw copy can be done in 3X realtime (33 minutes of footage in 11 minutes), while a copy/transcode to Prores can be 2X realtime. Cineform, Prores, DNxHD, or whatever you want.

S3D. Wow, this hasn't even been broached yet as a topic, but will be expanded on at NAB. For those doing stereo shooting, the Gemini not only records two uncompressed streams, but will display any of the popular stereo output modes such as side-by-side, over-under, line alt, 50/50, anaglyph. And it will do different variants on different outputs! View 50/50 on the built in LCD while outputting anaglyph to a second monitor and side-by-side to a 3rd monitor, as an example. Also it will do HIT adjustments for setting up and evaluating convergence and disparity.

I will be spending some time in the Convergent Booth demonstrating the S3D features on a mirror beamsplitter stereo rig. The Gemini eliminates most of the rats nest of cables and black boxes needed to preview, evaluate and record stereo.

Monitor overlays. Down the road you'll be able to load in custom made display grids. Want to have a 3% divergence overlay for stereo work? Paint it up in Photoshop and import. Make your own custom framing charts, or use still images/captures and blend over the live action stream for critical and VFX alignment.

The Gemini is an entire production system, not just a recorder:

-Monitor
-Process
-Record
-Backup/redundancy

Jim Arthurs
 
are other tools being implemented as well? false color, wave form, focus assists, 1:1 pixel map, etc.
 
tom.wong said:
are other tools being implemented as well? false color, wave form, focus assists, 1:1 pixel map, etc.
Click to expand...

Hi Tom-
Yes, over time. Gemini has 5X the programmable logic of the nanoFlash, so we have a lot of room to add new features, such as false color, etc.

Mike Schell
 
Mike

When you encode from the uncompressed in compressor, how will you be able to maintain timecode. If I remember correctly compressor will not keep the TC.

thx
 
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