GH5 Game Over, Panasonic

dcoughla said:
Definitely not as well as you do. My understanding from what I've read over the years is that they're relatively new to making cinema cameras, and have had a few misfires on that front. So I'm not ready to assume that this camera is going to reshape the industry in the same way Davinci did just yet. We'll see!
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All good, I was just making the point they’ve been in hardware a long time and see themselves as a hardware company, not a software company. ( The “real” version of Resolve has a Panel remember ?)

They are very new to cameras, we’re at year 6 now ? They’ve certainly made mistakes, but they’ve also done some great things. I’m greatful they’re here and shaking things up, even though they don’t always deliver what they promise. They’re still the only ones doing RAW and ProRes on board at this price point, or really under 10K.

JB
 
dcoughla said:
It doesn't matter if they're different cameras as they perform the same core function (capturing moving images for display). The more expensive one will be judged against the cheaper one's ability to perform identical functions. If the cheaper one equals/outperforms the more expensive one (which for the record I don't believe is going to happen, but folks in this very thread are forecasting, which is why I mentioned it as a reason it probably won't happen), it will call the pricing structure into question.
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"Same core function"? By that logic we should also be comparing Corollas to Corvettes for their ability to get us to work in the morning.

This is the problem with distilling everything down to a "core function." In actuality, the UMPro will blow this thing away in absolute IQ as well as overall usability for many, many people.
 
Paul F said:
In my dreams I was surrounded by my $1295 4k raw cameras as I threw my GH5(s) cameras to the wind. Fairies we're floating along helping me as I shot the most epic vlog ever in 4k raw. It received 10 million views. This was the camera for me. 4k raw! I had to have it. I was king of Youtube.....
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MurtlandPhoto said:
"Same core function"? By that logic we should also be comparing Corollas to Corvettes for their ability to get us to work in the morning.
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Uh, how exactly do you think commuters make vehicle purchasing decisions? They do make these comparisons and then decide whether the bells and whistles of a Corvette are enough to justify the premium. They're going to be doing the exact same thing with the BMPCC4k and the UMP. If the BMPCC4k puts out the same or better image, then many people are going to object to paying what amounts to a $5k premium for usability.

In actuality, the UMPro will blow this thing away in absolute IQ as well as overall usability for many, many people.
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I share this view but if you read the thread, it's definitely a minority opinion.
 
I tend to agree more with the spirit of dcoughlin, because the market is oversegmented. So many times I hear someone here say a camera is in "a different market" or "segment" or "it's apples and oranges," when it's really not, at least not for any reason that is natural or technical. It's a completely artificial segmentation, etched out by the manufacturer. It is in the interest of the seller, not the buyer, to segment products. Anyone remember Microsoft Windows 7's six different versions: Starter, Home Basic, Home Premium, Professional, Enterprise, and Ultimate? Do you think it is in the interests of the buyer for there to be so many versions? While some features are needed only by businesses, like running your own password or email server, there are about three times as many versions as what the user needs. Likewise we have seen camera makers leave off a feature on one camera so as not to cannibalize another.

Furthermore, like John Brawley said, I am grateful to Blackmagic for including features like RAW and Prores at prices that the other companies so far have been unwilling to match.

However, like fimguy123 said, there really is more to a camera than the image it produces, especially now. We have been at the point of diminishing returns for any but the most neurotic pixel peeper --- though I understand that includes all of us. But going back to his point, there is more than image quality, and that is bad news for a company that specializes in image quality, less so in ergonomics. So I would encourage Blackmagic to continue their devotion to giving us the most bang for the buck, but also to improve their ergonomics, reliability, etc. Because one day that will be the main difference between cameras, at least in any practical way.

The good news is, as far as cameras have come in image, they still can go a lot further in ergonomics. Who wouldn't want: longer battery life, less fiddly menu systems, faster boot-up, more metal, less plastic, etc. (Maybe your camera is good in one or two of these areas, but I doubt in all the areas.)
 
dcoughla said:
Uh, how exactly do you think commuters make vehicle purchasing decisions? They do make these comparisons and then decide whether the bells and whistles of a Corvette are enough to justify the premium. They're going to be doing the exact same thing with the BMPCC4k and the UMP. If the BMPCC4k puts out the same or better image, then many people are going to object to paying what amounts to a $5k premium for usability.



I share this view but if you read the thread, it's definitely a minority opinion.
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Okay, we're saying the same thing here whew! So, my point is that the other features aside from IQ are definitely enough to justify the price difference. You're saying that most people on here won't see it that way? I certainly hope that's not the case, haha.
 
dcoughla said:
Uh, how exactly do you think commuters make vehicle purchasing decisions? They do make these comparisons and then decide whether the bells and whistles of a Corvette are enough to justify the premium. They're going to be doing the exact same thing with the BMPCC4k and the UMP. If the BMPCC4k puts out the same or better image, then many people are going to object to paying what amounts to a $5k premium for usability.
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I don’t think you can make that case really here.

They are different sensors. One has more DR, built in NDs, not one but two SDI connections, dedicated TC and Genlock in, two full size XLRs etc, tillable screen;-), larger sensor size, interchangeable mounts.

They may be close in IQ and maybe that premium isn’t worth it to some or may seem unjustified just on IQ but in utility I think there’s a huge difference. I can pimp up a UMP for many scenarios on set big and small.

You could do this with a Pocket 2 but it would be like writing a novel with an iPhone. You can do it sure, maybe get yourself a Bluetooth keyboard to make it easier, but why would you do that if you didn’t have to.

JB
 
The reason there is segmentation in cars or cameras is to attempt to make a product for a particular segment of the market and tick the boxes that are important to that segment at the lowest possible cost to meet the spec. All the car manufacturers use just a few engines ( like a sensor to a camera) however the computer that drives that engine is different for the different models. It is this customization that makes the model work for that market. NOT the engine core ( sensor !!! ) Back to cars if you want looks and to impress people get the Corvette. If you want the lowest cost ride and carry 4 people around the Corvette will not meet this need at all. And by the way both can get you a speeding ticket !!! Ultimately it is the computer in the camera that will govern performance. We will have to see how it performs when the camera is available. Comments from reviewers at the show of how solid the camera felt may well be different when the real plastic housing is used rather than the demo metal housing etc, etc.

Unlike some of you I got my GH5 and GH5s for different reasons. They were much cheaper than buying a new camcorder that shot UHD60P internal to low cost media. Closest camcorder with their performance is the Sony FS7. Even now due out in the fall the Sony PXW-Z190 or Z280 is still more expensive than a GH5S with lenses and XLR unit. Even the Panasonic fixed lens camcorders are more expensive. In cost comparison I bought both and all the lenses for less than the cost of a FS7. Have they got all the functions of the FS7. Of course not but I do not need those extra functions. So if image quality is the most and only feature of importance then the BMPCC4K is wonderful ( in the same way I look at my GH5 compared to the FS7 ) however if you want the other features like IBIS, tilt screen etc etc then it doesn't. Just like if someone needs all the extra features on the FS7 that makes it more valuable than the GH5's. Each person has to decide the functions that are important to them. One function or lowest cost will not do it for me or I suspect most people.
 
MurtlandPhoto said:
So, my point is that the other features aside from IQ are definitely enough to justify the price difference. You're saying that most people on here won't see it that way? I certainly hope that's not the case, haha.
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I think the majority of working folks who are using cameras to generate income and view them as investments will agree with this position. Not sure that's the majority here.

John Brawley said:
but why would you do that if you didn’t have to.
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$$$. $1300 base price + rentals as needed is a lot more doable / psychologically attractive than 5k up front. And rather than admit "I can't afford/justify a 5k cam", most people are going to say "I don't need a 5k cam, my 1k cam can do basically the same thing!"
 
dcoughla said:
$$$. $1300 base price + rentals as needed is a lot more doable / psychologically attractive than 5k up front. And rather than admit "I can't afford/justify a 5k cam", most people are going to say "I don't need a 5k cam, my 1k cam can do basically the same thing!"
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I still instinctively feel though it really won’t be the same thing. It might be close, but it won’t be the same. From an image point of view alone the sensors are different. One does better DR and one has better low light performance. They are different, so that equation doens’t make much sense to me. But maybe for some ?

JB
 
John Brawley said:
They are different, so that equation doens’t make much sense to me. But maybe for some ?
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It sounds insane because you've been doing this long enough to understand that success comes from understanding how to use the "best tool for the job"... but for whatever reason (I suspect a combination of $ and inexperience), a lot of people on the internet seem to want to hitch their wagon to one camera / one manufacturer and proclaim the rest inferior/obsolete/etc. This thread being a pretty shining example of that.
 
I'll say it, I can't justify a $5k+ camera body. But that's also why I'm still using GH2's because I can't justify anything "better" for video. If only Fuji had built that killer mixed mode camera that we all wanted.
 
Chiming in late I know but...certainly not game over, hopefully a game changer as so many people have essentially said already on this thread. I was previously looking at the FS700+7Q combo as the cheapest way to shoot 4K raw but then this BMPCCLOLWTFBBQ4k is announced. If they deliver on these features its a no brainer. It's certainly not the camera for every situation and I won't be selling my GH5 to buy it, but dang. Hopefully it can fit and balance on a Crane 2. Would have been great if they made the hand grip detachable at least, I'd be ok with a 4" screen to accommodate that. I'd be interested in a breakdown of the engineering choices involved.
 
Posted this in another thread but -

It is not a gh5 in terms that you cant take a pictures. That will always be a plus for the gh5.

Also, no aa filter. Get ready for moire and aliasing, even if you shoot in 4k. The ursa 4.6 suffers from moire and its a s35, so i can only imagine how bad it will be on a s16.

Also, no tiltable screen means low shots will be hard. Yes you can add a bunch of stuff, but once you do, your now in another category of gear.

That said, once an aa filter is released for it (and you can be sure it will happen), i will probably get one.
 
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alaskacameradude said:
???? Stills? Pretty sure it can take stills. Maybe not
high enough megapixel stills for your liking but I think
it does take them.
https://www.diyphotography.net/the-...-camera-and-10-other-things-you-need-to-know/
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There's a big misconception and slightly deceptive marketing around the still capabilities of the Pocket 4K. It is a glorified screenshot of the video feed. The camera lacks a physical shutter thus will always display rolling shutter artifacts. The GH5s, despite being geared towards video as well, is still a much better photo camera due to its shutter and wayyyy better AF in stills mode.

IMO, the stills mode to the Pocket will be best used in location scouting, lighting tests, and reference photos for production.
 
MurtlandPhoto said:
IMO, the stills mode to the Pocket will be best used in location scouting, lighting tests, and reference photos for production.
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That’s pretty much all it’s for including the UMP’s stills mode...it will not be as useful as almost any other camera that’s actually built for taking pictures.
 
As much as I hate the kind of mass consumerism chest pounding discussions of this product beating that product why are we not instead talking about game over Canon, Nikon and Sony?

If the main concern is about as little compression as possible why are the other players even in the game anymore? At least Panasonic has enough balls to provide a bridge between consumer formats and raw with their robust 10bit 4:2:2 log formats. Nobody and I mean nobody else is providing that at 4k in a camera under $5,000. No other DSLR even bothers to provide a 10bit HDMI output. If 150mbps or 400mbps isn't enough for you then external ProRes or even uncompressed to a workstation is always an option. I have worked with external uncompressed a lot in the past vs ProRes or other light compressed formats and it doesn't visually get any better than that other than raw.

From that perspective I think BMD and Panasonic are the only players actually left in the game. If Sony wakes up and provides a 10bit low compressed format they will be at the table once again but is there any hope for Canon and Nikon anymore? The reality is if one does a wide range of video production they may choose the GH5 or GH5S depending on their low light needs and how much they prefer to use alternative stabilizing methods. Some video producers do a ton of tripod based dark environment type of shoots with multiple cameras and in those cases the GH5S is really the ultimate replacement of a traditional video camera. The GH5 is the ultimate versatile camera for handholding and stills. The Pocket is likely going to be the ultimate budget filmmaking camera. Different tools for different users but where the heck does that put Canon, Nikon and Sony or any of the smaller players like Samsung and Fuji?

Yeah there is the larger sensor thing but with dual native ISO and focal reducers that is no longer as important as it once was. It is such a non issue now compared to what the GH5S and Pocket can do in low light and how they can match s35mm or APS-C with a focal reducer in terms of FOV and DOF. Both the Pocket 4k and GH5S can get around a 1.2x crop when using the SpeedBooster XL which gets you half way between APS-C and FF anyway so the FF thing is not all that much wider anymore. If one wants a cinematic look with a ton of range to work with in post then the Pocket shooting raw will slam the daylights out of any Canon or Nikon camera out there with or without Magic Lantern. If one wants the cleanest HD and 4k they can get with a log format that can hold up in post and provide out of the box ease of use then Panasonic is still a solid contender for those that don't need insane grading latitude.

If anything the Pocket 4k is making the m43 format more appealing to users than ever before and really shines a light on just how great the m43 format can actually be. This is really a win win for Panasonic since they make lenses and will likely sell a boatload of lenses which will lead to better R&D to make even more lenses. BMD doesn't make lenses so they only make profits form selling bodies. Panasonic and Olympus on the other hand can produce a ton of great glass to compliment the Pocket 4k. We should all hope Panasonic sticks with the m43 format so they continue to build lenses for the BMD Pocket 4k users to use. We can all hope this lights a fire under Sigma, Tamron, Rokinon and other 3rd parties to produce more native m43 lenses as well. I think we are about to hit the golden age of m43 and thats a great thing for all of us. I personally think Canon and Nikon are insanely dumb to not join the m43 group and instead push their sad little 1" sensors just to be different. Nobody cares if they don't want to play with the rest of the kids at school so they need to get on board and join the party. It is about time we have a universal mount standard anyway and m43 is that standard already. Only mount and format with a group of companies not owned by a single one of them. It doesn't get any more democratic than m43 right now.

So no not game over for Panasonic but game on for m43.
 
Thomas..you can talk for yourself, not for all others.. While better on paper, I would rather shoot on 8bit Sony than 10bit GH5.. I just like picture delivered with Sony, more.. And you like Panasonic more..no problem
 
leteeci said:
Thomas..you can talk for yourself, not for all others.. While better on paper, I would rather shoot on 8bit Sony than 10bit GH5.. I just like picture delivered with Sony, more.. And you like Panasonic more..no problem
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Nothing wrong with that at all which is why I said if Sony adds a 10bit format they are at the table once again. I'm talking from a least amount of compression perspective and not overall look. Thats the reason why so many still like the look of Canon and Nikon line skipped HD. To me its hideous but some people prefer the general look and feel over quality and thats ok too.

This discussion really centered around compression vs no compression however and thats where my rant came from.

I'm also not saying the Panasonic look is for everybody. My stance is more about m43 and that also now includes the Pocket 4k which you may find is a better choice over the Sony. Of course everybody will not like the look of Panasonic but we are starting to get more choices with the m43 format and thats a great thing.
 
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