Foot Candles

[DDirector]

Is there a standard foot candle reading you should have of a key on someone on a regular shot?

If I want to light someone in daylight, what foot candle should be his key?

Reason I am asking is because I found a used Kino Flo, but they dont output a lot of light. At 4' they are already below 200' candles. I dont know how close I would have to get.

I will either have to pass up on a good deal, or get a hard powerful light and make it soft

 

[Barry_Green]

The amount of light you need on someone is not a fixed thing. It depends on a lot of different variables, including what speed your film stock is (200 ASA requires half as much light as 100 ASA) or how fast your video camera is (an HMC150 can get equivalent exposure in 1/10th as much light as an HMC40). It also depends on what shutter speed and what iris you want to use.

A 4-bank Kino Flo puts out about as much light as a 1000w fresnel in a softbox. It's plenty for indoors, or outdoors at night, and useless for outdoors daylight. But again, it all depends on what you want to use it for. For lighting faces, yes. For lighting up the outside of a house, no.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Is there a standard foot candle reading you should have of a key on someone on a regular shot?

If I want to light someone in daylight, what foot candle should be his key?

Reason I am asking is because I found a used Kino Flo, but they dont output a lot of light. At 4' they are already below 200' candles. I dont know how close I would have to get.

I will either have to pass up on a good deal, or get a hard powerful light and make it soft

Two days ago, near the beach, with ready to downpour cloud cover, I measured 3000 fc in the direction of the sun, and 2000 fc of 'north' light, with my cheap $50 'greenhouse' lightmeter.

For clear days, like today, the sun side is up in the 9000-10000 fc, and the 'north' light still around 2000 fc.

So, a 200 fc source is only going to be good for a eye catch light in such a condition.

One of the problems I have with how 'lighting' is spect is that 'watts' doesn't really tell you much. What does tell you much is the actual footcandles vs. distance which only the manufacturers of the quality equipment give. (Some of the ebay offerings I've looked at only give watts... may be lumens as in 'total output', which requires some calculations and estimations to turn that into a usable form.

At this point a big bounce card would probably do you better to soften the shadow side of a 'bright, cloudless' day.

A quick look yields an ARRI 5K which in the brief blurb gives some 2800 fc in 'flood' mode for some set of lensings, at 10 feet.... which just 'matches' what you get for free from the 'north' light side... so bump that up to 12K...

At this point the usual and customary for 'no bidget' productions is to find an awning, shade tree, or work up some form of overhead screen to cut the sun's direct light, with some bounce from cards or screens to further soften the contrast.

 

[slondon]

How many tubes are in the fixture? If there are four that is one of the most used fixtures for moviemaking in the world for indoor work.

 

[DDirector]

A 4-bank Kino Flo puts out about as much light as a 1000w fresnel in a softbox. It's plenty for indoors, or outdoors at night, and useless for outdoors daylight. But again, it all depends on what you want to use it for. For lighting faces, yes. For lighting up the outside of a house, no.

Is it really?
I was debating of getting an Arri Arrilite 1000W + a Softbox or the Kino Flo. I thought the Kino would be much less fc than the 1000W at the same distance and would have to be placed much closer.

How many tubes are in the fixture? If there are four that is one of the most used fixtures for moviemaking in the world for indoor work.

Yes, 4. --> 4' 4Bank Kino Flo
I've seen some behind the scenes work of some TV shows with these lights, but they usually have 4 or more of these. Thats what worried me. You would need to have many to make it bright enough to cover a big area, like when people are more spread out in a room.


Its not going to be used for any outdoor lighting. Its all going to be for indoor work.
So does that mean I should stick with the 4' Kino Flo instead of an Arri Arrilite 1000W + a Softbox? Or possibly the Arri light as I can get a hard/soft light out of it?

 

[slondon]

Yes, 4. --> 4' 4Bank Kino Flo
I've seen some behind the scenes work of some TV shows with these lights, but they usually have 4 or more of these. Thats what worried me. You would need to have many to make it bright enough to cover a big area, like when people are more spread out in a room.


Its not going to be used for any outdoor lighting. Its all going to be for indoor work.
So does that mean I should stick with the 4' Kino Flo instead of an Arri Arrilite 1000W + a Softbox? Or possibly the Arri light as I can get a hard/soft light out of it?

I have several of both. I use the Kino Flos much more. A 4' 4 bank Kino is an excellent key for action in most small to medium rooms such as average bedrooms and kitchens with every video camera I've ever encountered. You need fill. Another 4' 4 bank is good for that and I sometimes use 2' 4 bank Kinos for that purpose.

A major advantage of Kino Flos is that it is so easy to lamp them for daylight with no loss due to color correction gels. The softbox route takes more space and is really only good for shooting at 3200K, but the Kinos are equally good at either color temperature.

The Kinos are no good as hard sources and the baby is but I'll bet you'll do 95% soft lighting for the average show. Of course, hard light can be the one and only thing needed when the story requires it.

As pointed out, the Kinos you're talking about are useless outdoors during the day. They can be used nicely for medium and close up night exteriors and are great day or night for interiors.

Good prices on used Kinos in good shape are hard to find. You're best off getting one whose ballast has four switches, one for each tube. The single switch variety allows you to select two or four tubes, which is a bit less flexible than one tube at a time.

What do you plan to do with the lights? Rooms? Sizes? Color temp? Number of actors?

 

[DDirector]

What do you plan to do with the lights? Rooms? Sizes? Color temp? Number of actors?

I am a student, so I dont have a fixed route on what I do or will do. I shoot music videos and short films.

Room sizes will vary. I've mostly done medium sized rooms (15'x11'), but occasionally I do stuff in larger room or large areas.

Colour Temp: It will usually be 5500K because I will have most of the time natural lighting. So, I will have to use blue gels, which sucks.
Occasionally I will have 3200K lighting.

For my films, usully 1 or 2 people. Sometimes I will get another in. It will vary on the project.



But, I dont know if I want to be forced to use only a soft light. I have not used hard light a lot, but I may need it eventually. If I am getting the KinoFlo, what light would I neeed to get with it? what size?

Wouldnt I be better off getting a 1000W Arrilite and a diffuser on a stand? And some scrims if I need to lower the light intensity? - Instead of the Kino Flo?

 

[slondon]

I am a student, so I dont have a fixed route on what I do or will do. I shoot music videos and short films.

Room sizes will vary. I've mostly done medium sized rooms (15'x11'), but occasionally I do stuff in larger room or large areas.

Colour Temp: It will usually be 5500K because I will have most of the time natural lighting. So, I will have to use blue gels, which sucks.
Occasionally I will have 3200K lighting.

For my films, usully 1 or 2 people. Sometimes I will get another in. It will vary on the project.



But, I dont know if I want to be forced to use only a soft light. I have not used hard light a lot, but I may need it eventually. If I am getting the KinoFlo, what light would I neeed to get with it? what size?

Wouldnt I be better off getting a 1000W Arrilite and a diffuser on a stand? And some scrims if I need to lower the light intensity? - Instead of the Kino Flo?

I'll give you my opinions. Others will have other ideas.

I'd get the Kino and add some used fresnels that you can find on eBay. Forget buying an Arri, they're too expensive for you now but there are many other pro brands at respectable prices that will give you great service for a long time to come. Look hard at the pix and descriptions and don't get beaters pick something that is in good shape. And don't buy anything without barn doors, they are essential. You can live without scrims by using ND gel. Get .15 because that's a half stop corresponding to a single wire scrim and you can stack layers if you need to.

Go for 650W or 1K fresnel fixtures from Colortran, Altman, Strand, Ianiro, Lowel, Mole, Desisti, LTM, B&M or even Arri and you're in. The 1Ks can be relamped to 750W, 500W or 300W. Get two or three and they will work nicely for background and edge lights or hard keys if that's what you want to do.

Don't buy a softbox with the Kinos you won't need one. Get three or four C-stands and sand bags. Make flags out of 2'X3' black foamcore with a 1/4"X 2" slit in the end that will fit in a gobo head. Get some blackwrap to form snoots.

If you can't afford a 2'X3' open frame or two for diffusion just get some 18" square pieces of 216, 250 and opal -- buy the gels by the foot from a grip house -- and clip them on the barn doors.

That'll get you off to a decent start.

 

[DDirector]

Would a 1000W Arrilite give me enough power for some outdoor work? Or would I have to go for a 2000W Fresnel?

I do some outdoor work, and I would want to get something large enough for outdoors, but I dont know if 1000 is enough.
Its not anything dramatic. Just enough to light someone on a medium shot. So, the lights can be somewhat close.

 

[slondon]

Would a 1000W Arrilite give me enough power for some outdoor work? Or would I have to go for a 2000W Fresnel?

I do some outdoor work, and I would want to get something large enough for outdoors, but I dont know if 1000 is enough.
Its not anything dramatic. Just enough to light someone on a medium shot. So, the lights can be somewhat close.

A 1K is fine for night exterior medium shots or less. Spotted up it's quite good for 50'. In daylight it does virtually nothing, especially when blue gelled. You get a little fill if it's right on top of somebody in open shade.