Alan H. Chang
Veteran
I think this is where your alignments should be at.
new Business card designs, opinions wanted
- Thread starter Jason Miller
- Start date
Jason Miller
Veteran
went with goiprint, the arived today, they did a beautiful job, total with shipping was about 22 bucks, I got 500 image on both side gloss y coat on both sides, nice heavy weight stiff stock,
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
In the creative industry this stuff is quite important. The new Waffle cards look good because they are well composed (maybe the name up a little) and simple. But simple is hard
If you feel the card represents you and the quality of work you produce then its done its job.
This is why I printed my newest business cards on toilet paper. Nothing says quality quite like that. I felt it was representative of the quality of work we do.
A few spelling errors in the company title also helped bring home the point.
Alan H. Chang
Veteran
Hey, I've done it and it's simple and looks professional. Sometimes you don't need some person charging $1000 for a design when you can just do it yourself for much less.
Thats great! If your ok with it.... But define professional.
$1000.00 to a Med/High Level graphic designer is cheap and money well spent. Over 10 years thats $100 a year.
You have to realize that your in business. A savvy client already knows how much your worth before you get called in. He/She has heard of you maybe, Has your business card and has seen your work/website.
It all depends at what level you want to present yourself.
Personally, I like when the client calls us in to do a project and they know it's not going to be cheap.
frisco
Alan H. Chang
Veteran
You're right, meaning of professionalism is different to everyone.
But when you have that time and energy including the creativity, why not make something that is specifically for yourself and represents yourself.
It's obvious that someone shouldn't be their own photographer at their own wedding, but something like a business card is very manageable.
But when you have that time and energy including the creativity, why not make something that is specifically for yourself and represents yourself.
It's obvious that someone shouldn't be their own photographer at their own wedding, but something like a business card is very manageable.
RyanT
Veteran
Frisco is sorta kinda right. It depends though. Some of us are better graphic designers than others. I guess I'm trying to say that some of us can try and get away with it, and sorta succeed, while others don't stand a fighting chance.
Yeah, whatever, nothin' beats the real stuff. I think that's what it comes down to.
Yeah, whatever, nothin' beats the real stuff. I think that's what it comes down to.
Alan H. Chang
Veteran
I also agree with frisco about paying someone to do the design work because it's your business. Certainly, if one knows that they lack in design then they should pay someone else for it.
Wasn't trying to start a fight. I realize that some folks here are just starting out or work in genres that "image" or "first impression" doesn't mean much. I just didn't want people to think DIY company identity and $22.00 printing jobs were what you were supposed to do. In general..... It's NOT ok and I 100% agree with Alan and Ryan that there are people that can pull it off VERY nice..... I've seen them, But maybe 3 in the last 15 years.
Now that being said ......You gotta be able to back it up.... Anyone can buy a graphic designer..... But not everyone can do the work.
Now here is the truth on how most good film makers and photographers get such great Graphic Design on there websites and collateral material.
Trades...... After you have been in the business a while, You work and meet some very talented people along the way and it becomes easier to call in favors and trades.
frisco
Now that being said ......You gotta be able to back it up.... Anyone can buy a graphic designer..... But not everyone can do the work.
Now here is the truth on how most good film makers and photographers get such great Graphic Design on there websites and collateral material.
Trades...... After you have been in the business a while, You work and meet some very talented people along the way and it becomes easier to call in favors and trades.
frisco
Alan H. Chang
Veteran
Yes! Agree 100%
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
I think it sorta/kinda depends, too. Frisco is right on the money in selling yourself big, as a true professional, etc.
However, and I always get in trouble for saying this so I know already I'm treading down a touchy path, but I'm sorry everyone who touches a computer or a camera seems to completely overrate their worth. Graphic designers are the worst of all. I see a lot of videographers who sell themselves cheap, they do very good work, they still work for $300/day and bring a camera. That's definitely cheap. But then I see people try to say that an editor is worth $100/hr. I have no idea what planet these people are from, I really don't, I'm from the planet of Los Angeles where if you talk to anyone down here, good editors are a dime a dozen, seriously. My friend is a great editor, he works for NBC now doing assistant editing, makes $200/day. They aren't even paying the head editor much more than that, and that's NBC. But on forums everyone somehow is acting as though we're all making $1,000/day, must be nice in these realities, never met anyone like that and I know dozens of editors. Not one of them makes $100/hr. Graphic designers are far worse than this, though.
I have now met a ton of graphic designers who want $75/hr. I have no idea why. You don't need a college degree to do this work, you don't even need to be smart, you just need to have a decent eye for visuals, some technical ability, but my former business partner did these amazing posters, I had no idea they were his, I thought he had them done professionally and he told me as a secret he did them himself. He has read one book on photoshop, played with it for about a week, and did these! I was impressed, he's not a DIY kind of guy AT ALL, he hires people to do everything. But he told me this graphic design place wanted $500/poster, and he did them in a few hours each. I mean this guy, my former business partner, is the first to tell you he doesn't know much about computers besides how to e-mail, surf the net, etc. So if he can make these gorgeous posters everyone was raving about from a week's worth of training, you tell me, why should a graphic designer get $75/hr? They shouldn't. They're not worth that. It's absolutely, completely ridiculous that sitting home at your computer, enjoying an easy life where you don't have to get up early, you work on your own time, etc., should make you TEN TIMES as much as working a crappy job like at Subway or something. It makes no sense. To be a great DP, the amount of training required is absurd, one reason I don't have much interest in doing that job. To learn how to light for the numerous varieties of circumstances that can arise on shoots, to know about so many different types of cameras, to know what types of camera movements are going to yield the best results, learning how to work collaboratively with other people on a shoot, what types of lights are right for what types of looks, you're expected to know enough about color correction give your input there, all of these considerations, DPs work for 5-6 years and still learn way more every year after. Making a Website layout or a logo or a flyer or a poster is not rocket science. It just isn't. Photoshop is an easy program to use, even for a moron, and there's no real time pressure about doing that work either, the world won't end if you have to stay up until 4 a.m. working because you don't have the inspiration. On a film shoot, you better be able to pull it off in the stressful production environment or you won't be hired again. Yet so many great DPs are still working for $300, $400, $500/day, when that is a 12-hour day, so if they're not making $75/hr god knows why a graphic designer deserves that.
The problem I have is if I wanted to be a graphic designer, I could learn how to make some sweet work using Illustrator and Photoshop in a year. I could read in that period of time easily 50 books, I could play around with ALL KINDS of projects, and in a year I would be pretty sweet at it. So, I'm sorry, $75/hr? Get real!!! CEOs of small companies don't make that much money! That's $5,000/week, $20,000/month, are you kidding me? It just isn't at all proportionate. There are careers that pay $35-40 per hour where you need a college degree and a graduate degree to do them. I can find high school students who have done graphic design work since they were 11 and can do sweet work. In fact, when I've seen portfolios of graphic designers, I can never tell who is the expensive one and the cheap ones. Sometimes the best ones are cheap, because they just don't know how to sell themselves well, so they are on craigslist giving away logos for $50.
The worst part is when people argue, "Yeah but they're freelance, so they can't get 8 hours of work a day." Oh, I see, so that's my problem? I am supposed to subsidize them not working? You know, I don't get 50 weeks of work per year either, maybe clients should have to pay me $1,000/day because I can only find 8 days of work per month. I guess that's their problem that I'm not finding other clients. Riiiiiight. If you can't find enough work freelancing, that's why you get another job. It's not the client's problem.
Then I get someone else who tells me they want $500 for a logo for my company. Uhh, sorry, what? That's two days of work in my book, to make a logo? Whatever. I had a friend who is a professional graphic designer, has done this as a salaried job for 3-4 years now, do a logo for me and it took him 3 tries to get close to what I wanted, but he still spent no more than a few hours doing it and I'll pay him $100. For most normal people, $50/hr is considered great pay. But somehow if you touch a computer, it magically becomes like you deserve a ridiculous sum.
It's especially absurd because a $1,200 iMac and $800 in software is enough to setup your graphic design business, whereas my business cost $100,000 to get off the ground buying pro equipment.
Ultimately, though, the market decides the prices. I can find great people who are happy with $25/hr, so I won't pay $75. I just think too many people believe the more someone charges, the better they automatically must be. Considering that high schoolers can make great graphics, but they can't be great doctors yet, I think there's a reason why graphic designers shouldn't be paid very highly. It's just not that special of an "ability," no offense to them.
Also freelancers love the idea of what they bring to the table, rather than their replacement cost. My friend was trying to suggest if a company makes an extra $1 million from his Website redesign, he should get $100,000, no matter how long it took him to make it, even if it was like three weeks. I said, uhh, it doesn't work that way. Your replacement cost is not that high, there are lots of other Web people who will do this work for way cheaper, so it doesn't matter how the company benefits. That's their concern, not yours. Then again, Web people are probably just as bad as graphical designers most of the time, actually worse because most of the ones who are terrible still charge top dollar. I took over Web operations for a company that was paying their Web company $500 for any basic changes. In fact, the last straw was when they wanted 4 text items changed on one .shtml page, I don't know anything about HTML, I don't know HTML from a hole in the ground, but I still know how to do that kind of basic crap. I spent 10 minutes making the changes, would have taken 5 but I hadn't added the server login info as a favorite yet and took about 3-4 minutes to find the login info in a folder I had. Basic work like that is not even worth $25/hr frankly, I could have done that when I was 14 and none of my friends made more than $10/hr at that age, yet they wanted $500 to do something I could teach an 8-year-old how to do. The only reason to pay $25/hr is to make sure you get someone who isn't totally retarded and doesn't break the page by doing something else stupid. But, again, companies pay money because they don't even know what a computer is so they assume OMG changing a Website, jeez, that's rocket science.
However, and I always get in trouble for saying this so I know already I'm treading down a touchy path, but I'm sorry everyone who touches a computer or a camera seems to completely overrate their worth. Graphic designers are the worst of all. I see a lot of videographers who sell themselves cheap, they do very good work, they still work for $300/day and bring a camera. That's definitely cheap. But then I see people try to say that an editor is worth $100/hr. I have no idea what planet these people are from, I really don't, I'm from the planet of Los Angeles where if you talk to anyone down here, good editors are a dime a dozen, seriously. My friend is a great editor, he works for NBC now doing assistant editing, makes $200/day. They aren't even paying the head editor much more than that, and that's NBC. But on forums everyone somehow is acting as though we're all making $1,000/day, must be nice in these realities, never met anyone like that and I know dozens of editors. Not one of them makes $100/hr. Graphic designers are far worse than this, though.
I have now met a ton of graphic designers who want $75/hr. I have no idea why. You don't need a college degree to do this work, you don't even need to be smart, you just need to have a decent eye for visuals, some technical ability, but my former business partner did these amazing posters, I had no idea they were his, I thought he had them done professionally and he told me as a secret he did them himself. He has read one book on photoshop, played with it for about a week, and did these! I was impressed, he's not a DIY kind of guy AT ALL, he hires people to do everything. But he told me this graphic design place wanted $500/poster, and he did them in a few hours each. I mean this guy, my former business partner, is the first to tell you he doesn't know much about computers besides how to e-mail, surf the net, etc. So if he can make these gorgeous posters everyone was raving about from a week's worth of training, you tell me, why should a graphic designer get $75/hr? They shouldn't. They're not worth that. It's absolutely, completely ridiculous that sitting home at your computer, enjoying an easy life where you don't have to get up early, you work on your own time, etc., should make you TEN TIMES as much as working a crappy job like at Subway or something. It makes no sense. To be a great DP, the amount of training required is absurd, one reason I don't have much interest in doing that job. To learn how to light for the numerous varieties of circumstances that can arise on shoots, to know about so many different types of cameras, to know what types of camera movements are going to yield the best results, learning how to work collaboratively with other people on a shoot, what types of lights are right for what types of looks, you're expected to know enough about color correction give your input there, all of these considerations, DPs work for 5-6 years and still learn way more every year after. Making a Website layout or a logo or a flyer or a poster is not rocket science. It just isn't. Photoshop is an easy program to use, even for a moron, and there's no real time pressure about doing that work either, the world won't end if you have to stay up until 4 a.m. working because you don't have the inspiration. On a film shoot, you better be able to pull it off in the stressful production environment or you won't be hired again. Yet so many great DPs are still working for $300, $400, $500/day, when that is a 12-hour day, so if they're not making $75/hr god knows why a graphic designer deserves that.
The problem I have is if I wanted to be a graphic designer, I could learn how to make some sweet work using Illustrator and Photoshop in a year. I could read in that period of time easily 50 books, I could play around with ALL KINDS of projects, and in a year I would be pretty sweet at it. So, I'm sorry, $75/hr? Get real!!! CEOs of small companies don't make that much money! That's $5,000/week, $20,000/month, are you kidding me? It just isn't at all proportionate. There are careers that pay $35-40 per hour where you need a college degree and a graduate degree to do them. I can find high school students who have done graphic design work since they were 11 and can do sweet work. In fact, when I've seen portfolios of graphic designers, I can never tell who is the expensive one and the cheap ones. Sometimes the best ones are cheap, because they just don't know how to sell themselves well, so they are on craigslist giving away logos for $50.
The worst part is when people argue, "Yeah but they're freelance, so they can't get 8 hours of work a day." Oh, I see, so that's my problem? I am supposed to subsidize them not working? You know, I don't get 50 weeks of work per year either, maybe clients should have to pay me $1,000/day because I can only find 8 days of work per month. I guess that's their problem that I'm not finding other clients. Riiiiiight. If you can't find enough work freelancing, that's why you get another job. It's not the client's problem.
Then I get someone else who tells me they want $500 for a logo for my company. Uhh, sorry, what? That's two days of work in my book, to make a logo? Whatever. I had a friend who is a professional graphic designer, has done this as a salaried job for 3-4 years now, do a logo for me and it took him 3 tries to get close to what I wanted, but he still spent no more than a few hours doing it and I'll pay him $100. For most normal people, $50/hr is considered great pay. But somehow if you touch a computer, it magically becomes like you deserve a ridiculous sum.
It's especially absurd because a $1,200 iMac and $800 in software is enough to setup your graphic design business, whereas my business cost $100,000 to get off the ground buying pro equipment.
Ultimately, though, the market decides the prices. I can find great people who are happy with $25/hr, so I won't pay $75. I just think too many people believe the more someone charges, the better they automatically must be. Considering that high schoolers can make great graphics, but they can't be great doctors yet, I think there's a reason why graphic designers shouldn't be paid very highly. It's just not that special of an "ability," no offense to them.
Also freelancers love the idea of what they bring to the table, rather than their replacement cost. My friend was trying to suggest if a company makes an extra $1 million from his Website redesign, he should get $100,000, no matter how long it took him to make it, even if it was like three weeks. I said, uhh, it doesn't work that way. Your replacement cost is not that high, there are lots of other Web people who will do this work for way cheaper, so it doesn't matter how the company benefits. That's their concern, not yours. Then again, Web people are probably just as bad as graphical designers most of the time, actually worse because most of the ones who are terrible still charge top dollar. I took over Web operations for a company that was paying their Web company $500 for any basic changes. In fact, the last straw was when they wanted 4 text items changed on one .shtml page, I don't know anything about HTML, I don't know HTML from a hole in the ground, but I still know how to do that kind of basic crap. I spent 10 minutes making the changes, would have taken 5 but I hadn't added the server login info as a favorite yet and took about 3-4 minutes to find the login info in a folder I had. Basic work like that is not even worth $25/hr frankly, I could have done that when I was 14 and none of my friends made more than $10/hr at that age, yet they wanted $500 to do something I could teach an 8-year-old how to do. The only reason to pay $25/hr is to make sure you get someone who isn't totally retarded and doesn't break the page by doing something else stupid. But, again, companies pay money because they don't even know what a computer is so they assume OMG changing a Website, jeez, that's rocket science.
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JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
Disclaimer: As with anything, I believe some designers are worth $500/hr, if they really are worth that much, i.e. if you made the logos for a few Fortune 500 companies, or designed their Websites, or can really show that you are the BEST at what you do, you deserve to be richly rewarded for your clear excellence.
But if you did local work for Bob's Electronics and you just happen to think you're the best because your mom told you so and your friends love your work, sorry... do some REAL work for multi-national corporations, then you can say you're worth the money. Same goes for me. I don't believe I'm worth $75/hr as a director, maybe with my equipment, sure, but for my time? Why? I haven't done enough to justify that expense, there are plenty of other starving directors with more experience than me who will work for cheaper, therefore the market says I'm not worth that much. I have to prove I am. That takes time. A lot of graphic designers seem unwilling to put in that time. They just immediately start out thinking they're worth $75/hr because their teacher said they do "great work."
But if you did local work for Bob's Electronics and you just happen to think you're the best because your mom told you so and your friends love your work, sorry... do some REAL work for multi-national corporations, then you can say you're worth the money. Same goes for me. I don't believe I'm worth $75/hr as a director, maybe with my equipment, sure, but for my time? Why? I haven't done enough to justify that expense, there are plenty of other starving directors with more experience than me who will work for cheaper, therefore the market says I'm not worth that much. I have to prove I am. That takes time. A lot of graphic designers seem unwilling to put in that time. They just immediately start out thinking they're worth $75/hr because their teacher said they do "great work."
You made a lot of good points Jonathan, but I'll have to disagree with you here. Film (or design) is a business where you simply can't count the number of hours in determining a rate. If a design takes you 3 hours to do, and you only charge $25/hour, how is anyone supposed to make a living doing design? I'm not a designer but I've bid for videography jobs where they only need me for 3 or 4 hours, but it's just not worth my time unless I charge them $70-80/ hour. If they need me for a whole day, then I adjust my rate accordingly. And that's a problem that I often run into. When clients who are used to an 8 hour work day crunch the numbers, they're simply aghast that they're paying me that much of an hourly rate. But what they don't realize is that I can't make a living otherwise. It's not about them subsidizing me, I simply have to charge a higher price because there is less work available. You can't use the model of a stable 9 to 5 job to judge this, because the nature of the work isn't stable. I might have work today, but not tomorrow. But either the customer pays the premium cost or nobody can afford to make a living at this.
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Jonathan it's obvious that you know nothing about the design process so it would be futile to have an intelligent conversation along those lines.
I must ask this:
What's the deal with your crusade to lower the incomes for professionals in our industry?
I mean it seems like every one of your posts has a theme of paying people the lowest amount possible. I know that you run a business and it's in your best interests to get the most mileage out of the dollar. But enough already. What difference does it make if someone makes a decent living from their talents? There's no need to keep berating the point that you can get people that are willing to work for very little money. This may be good for you but it's not good for hard working people in the industry. You constantly say that your people are perfectly happy working for less that $200/day. Ask yourself are they happy or are you taking advantage of the competitive nature of the industry and taking advantage of them. How many of the people that you hire read these forums? How do they feel that they are described as cheap labor? No need to answer, I suppose the high school kids that you hire are thrilled to be paid for doing something fun.
Your view of the industry is very narrow minded. Your sole perspective is that of the cheapest workers available in the market. If Karma rears it's ugly head you're in a lot of trouble. Consider this: Growing insurance costs, health care costs, property taxes, and competition force you to close your business. Now you are faced with finding a staff position or freelancing to make a living wage. If it's the latter then you could be subjected to the low day rates that you are now campaigning for. Would you work for someone that pays as low as you do? If you end up competing for freelance work with the individuals you used to hire, are you going to undercut them to get the work?
**Sorry for derailing the thread.***
I've had it with Jonathan's lack of respect for those that work hard in the industry.
I must ask this:
What's the deal with your crusade to lower the incomes for professionals in our industry?
I mean it seems like every one of your posts has a theme of paying people the lowest amount possible. I know that you run a business and it's in your best interests to get the most mileage out of the dollar. But enough already. What difference does it make if someone makes a decent living from their talents? There's no need to keep berating the point that you can get people that are willing to work for very little money. This may be good for you but it's not good for hard working people in the industry. You constantly say that your people are perfectly happy working for less that $200/day. Ask yourself are they happy or are you taking advantage of the competitive nature of the industry and taking advantage of them. How many of the people that you hire read these forums? How do they feel that they are described as cheap labor? No need to answer, I suppose the high school kids that you hire are thrilled to be paid for doing something fun.
Your view of the industry is very narrow minded. Your sole perspective is that of the cheapest workers available in the market. If Karma rears it's ugly head you're in a lot of trouble. Consider this: Growing insurance costs, health care costs, property taxes, and competition force you to close your business. Now you are faced with finding a staff position or freelancing to make a living wage. If it's the latter then you could be subjected to the low day rates that you are now campaigning for. Would you work for someone that pays as low as you do? If you end up competing for freelance work with the individuals you used to hire, are you going to undercut them to get the work?
**Sorry for derailing the thread.***
I've had it with Jonathan's lack of respect for those that work hard in the industry.
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Mattykins
Cute Member
Personally I am almost offended - and I am sure many here would be so and should be so.
Yeah - can you get people to work for free? Can you get people who will work for 100 bucks a day? Yeah, sure.
Maybe you spent 100,000 to get your company off the ground. Do you want a cookie? Evidently your time means nothing to you. For a lot of us working in the industry - we work hard. We get our asses kicked trying to get a decent pay grade. Trying to make a living in something we love. Then people like you exploit the system and get it into peoples heads that financial rape is okay. That people who work in the film industry are expensive whores who are trash and don't deserve anything more then that.
Most people here work very hard to make it anywhere. People start in PA positions for higher then you consider a creative professional who will design the logo you fly by. But then, dare I ask what a PA is worth to you? Dare I ask what anyone is worth to you?
If you want to live your life thinking that people are worthless, that killing any money they have the potential of making is a great thing because I get more for my money. Then fine by me. I think most of the people that read your posts Jonathan don't think very highly of you. I can tell you I don't.
Yeah - can you get people to work for free? Can you get people who will work for 100 bucks a day? Yeah, sure.
Maybe you spent 100,000 to get your company off the ground. Do you want a cookie? Evidently your time means nothing to you. For a lot of us working in the industry - we work hard. We get our asses kicked trying to get a decent pay grade. Trying to make a living in something we love. Then people like you exploit the system and get it into peoples heads that financial rape is okay. That people who work in the film industry are expensive whores who are trash and don't deserve anything more then that.
Most people here work very hard to make it anywhere. People start in PA positions for higher then you consider a creative professional who will design the logo you fly by. But then, dare I ask what a PA is worth to you? Dare I ask what anyone is worth to you?
If you want to live your life thinking that people are worthless, that killing any money they have the potential of making is a great thing because I get more for my money. Then fine by me. I think most of the people that read your posts Jonathan don't think very highly of you. I can tell you I don't.
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
LOL, wah wah wah, you don't make enough money, your time is worth $500/hr, you bust your ass, whatever.
A PA is worth $50-100/day, nothing more, they wouldn't be PAs if they were experienced professionals. They are there to assist, and can be very helpful, but they aren't trained professionals. That's why they're PAs. You act like this is a bad thing, I would have been happy to help on pro shoots when I was younger as a PA for $50/day, because it would have been awesome experience and I would have learned so much. I did work as a grip on a pro shoot for $50 for TWO days, it's not at all uncommon.
All I see is a lot of bitching from people who aren't worth more money than they are getting, but wish they were, so they think it's somehow my fault or people like me who make it a competitive business. It is this way because it's also a LOT OF FUN, if it weren't fun and if people didn't love doing this, they wouldn't work for these wages.
Oh, and high school kids?!?! Hahaha, as if, I don't even hire people right out of film school except for low positions, I work with professionals, people with usually at least 4-5 years of experience in the industry, if not 8-10. I'm still as generous with pay as I can afford to be, I often pay more than the agreed upon amount, and I'm not taking a budget from the client and paying myself some huge sum and not paying the employees. That is bullshi* and you know it. The only lack of respect is freakin' IDIOTS like you who try to kill honest businessmen. In your opinion, because your grasp of the real world is so pathetic and sad that you have no clue how it works for any business, I should turn down every project unless it's going to pay me $150/hr and my workers a minimum of $50/hr, because that's what they're worth. I'm sorry dude, the competition disagrees. There are plenty of other companies out there who WILL do the work, so if I sit around and just wait until someone happens to offer me an obscene amount of money to do a project, I'd never get any work, and I'd be out of business. Why? So I could be a NICE GUY to my employees? I didn't come here to be a nice guy, a tool like some of you, I came here to WIN and make money. I don't care if you think $200/day is crappy, if I post on craigslist and 75 people, 25 with great resumes / reels, reply and want work, obviously there's no problem with $200/day is there? If it was that bad of pay I'd get only 5 people applying and they would all have no experience.
So am I taking advantage of the competitive marketplace? Absolutely! That's the point, to exploit the advantages of an industry. In this business, I don't envy the workers, it's too competitive to be a worker, it's much better to be the project originator and hire cheaper labor than you can in other markets or businesses. If you're going to pay everyone $500/day just to be a nice guy, you're going out of business. You're not rewarded in business by being careless with your money. I want to get the best workers I can for the cheapest price I can get them. If we have the budget, of course I'll be happy to pay more, if the budget were $20,000 for a simple one-day shoot and some editing, and not a huge crew was required, heck, I'd be happy to pay my grips $300 a day, my DP $600, my PAs $200, etc. But that's just not the reality of most shoots. The reality is there is never enough in the budget, until you get to union levels, and then you have larger budgets where everyone can get paid an inflated sum of money, including myself.
I don't think your average director is worth $10,000/week either, but that's the going rate a lot of times for TV shows, etc., I think that's actually like the minimum. I doubt it would be impossible to find other highly qualified directors who would be happy to work for $1,000 week just to get such a great opportunity, but those are the rules for DGA stuff so that's usually how it goes.
To argue about the inherent worth of someone's time is just silly, there is no inherent worth, there is replacement cost and value. If you're a grip, you have no value, because nobody is going to see the project because you gripped it, so you only have the replacement cost, which is what it costs to get another, similarly skilled grip. If that's $200/day, the market has spoken. If suddenly everyone said screw this, I don't want to be a grip, and there was a huge shortage, sure, maybe grips go up to $500/day, then supply comes back to meet demand. It's simple market economics, don't shoot me for following them. You act like I set the rules. I just follow the rules.
And I pay better than most people at my level. I routinely see people post on craigslist, "Need makeup artist, no pay, but great experience!" I at least pay $10/hr to everyone on set except maybe if I have a few PAs, but in general everyone gets paid at least $10/hr, which is crappy pay but then again most people on set would be more like $15 at least, some $20, for stuff I finance myself that isn't terrible. In your opinion, instead, I should just not do any of my own projects, because I can't afford to pay huge sums of money, so rather than find people excited about the project who care more about the project and the experience than the pay, I should sit at home and wait for a client to pay me a huge amount of money so I can pay my crew a lot. You live in a fantasy world. When I take a project from a client, I'm likely to be paying $25/hr much of the time. On a training video I did, DP got $750 for a day and a half, that's great pay by almost anyone's standards. Actress made $700, grips $525, not really bad pay for anyone. Don't vilify me for working within the budgets I have. I fight for the best budget I can get. Do you know what I made on the training video for my time? $200/day. I had 10 days of work on that project and my total pay was a flat fee of $2,000. Everyone on my cast and crew made more per day than I did. So, you know what? Screw you for acting like I'm the bad guy. I take care of my crews, I don't overpay myself at their expense, I get the most I can from a client, but I don't turn down work that I need, just like you, because I'm so spoiled and arrogant that I think $25/hr is unacceptable pay. I'd rather have a project where I get only $20/hr and I have to pay the crew $25/hr because at least I am working, and at least I can help out the crew guys I know with some money in the meantime. Anyone who has worked with me would agree I treat a crew with respect, everyone is important in my book, from PA to DP, they all make it work, that doesn't mean they're all worth the same daily pay, but it does mean they all deserve to be treated well, fed well, and given respect.
On my corporate work, I paid the DP more per hour than I got paid. Why? Because he had more experience at his job than I do at mine. You can accuse me of a lot of things, but don't give me this crap about how I treat crews unfairly. I am one of the fairest guys you will ever meet. I give whatever I can to my crews. I'm sorry my clients don't yet pay enough for all of us to make what you think we all deserve. But don't tell me how to run my business, you clueless n00b.
If you can't live well on $25/hr you're a tool. I guess you must think school teachers making $15/hr aren't worth as much as you because you can... what, rig a light? Get real. When you get to the point where you are really better than everyone else at what you do, then yes, you can start asking for $100/hr and maybe get it. But until then, join the real world guys. Who are you anyway? I've never heard of you, you've never heard of me, and you say you're worth more than $25/hr? Ok, why? Because you're so great at your job that nobody else can do it the way you do? If that's the case, great, but more than likely it isn't. People like us are replaceable. If I don't want to do a corporate video project, someone else will, and I've not done 10 years of work where I can say I deserve more than $25/hr. If you have, more power to you, that's awesome. But don't tell me what I should accept. My friends are in med school, law school, grad school, etc., and the ones out there working aren't making $15/hr most of the time, even with college degrees at respectable businesses, so for you to say I should be turning down $25/hr for my time plus being paid fairly for my equipment, I think you're insane. I'll turn that work down when my time is so valuable that I have too much work and not enough time. But until then, I'm obviously not worth more than $25/hr either. And if I'm not, damned if some 20-something graphic designer is worth $75, screw that crap.
A PA is worth $50-100/day, nothing more, they wouldn't be PAs if they were experienced professionals. They are there to assist, and can be very helpful, but they aren't trained professionals. That's why they're PAs. You act like this is a bad thing, I would have been happy to help on pro shoots when I was younger as a PA for $50/day, because it would have been awesome experience and I would have learned so much. I did work as a grip on a pro shoot for $50 for TWO days, it's not at all uncommon.
All I see is a lot of bitching from people who aren't worth more money than they are getting, but wish they were, so they think it's somehow my fault or people like me who make it a competitive business. It is this way because it's also a LOT OF FUN, if it weren't fun and if people didn't love doing this, they wouldn't work for these wages.
Oh, and high school kids?!?! Hahaha, as if, I don't even hire people right out of film school except for low positions, I work with professionals, people with usually at least 4-5 years of experience in the industry, if not 8-10. I'm still as generous with pay as I can afford to be, I often pay more than the agreed upon amount, and I'm not taking a budget from the client and paying myself some huge sum and not paying the employees. That is bullshi* and you know it. The only lack of respect is freakin' IDIOTS like you who try to kill honest businessmen. In your opinion, because your grasp of the real world is so pathetic and sad that you have no clue how it works for any business, I should turn down every project unless it's going to pay me $150/hr and my workers a minimum of $50/hr, because that's what they're worth. I'm sorry dude, the competition disagrees. There are plenty of other companies out there who WILL do the work, so if I sit around and just wait until someone happens to offer me an obscene amount of money to do a project, I'd never get any work, and I'd be out of business. Why? So I could be a NICE GUY to my employees? I didn't come here to be a nice guy, a tool like some of you, I came here to WIN and make money. I don't care if you think $200/day is crappy, if I post on craigslist and 75 people, 25 with great resumes / reels, reply and want work, obviously there's no problem with $200/day is there? If it was that bad of pay I'd get only 5 people applying and they would all have no experience.
So am I taking advantage of the competitive marketplace? Absolutely! That's the point, to exploit the advantages of an industry. In this business, I don't envy the workers, it's too competitive to be a worker, it's much better to be the project originator and hire cheaper labor than you can in other markets or businesses. If you're going to pay everyone $500/day just to be a nice guy, you're going out of business. You're not rewarded in business by being careless with your money. I want to get the best workers I can for the cheapest price I can get them. If we have the budget, of course I'll be happy to pay more, if the budget were $20,000 for a simple one-day shoot and some editing, and not a huge crew was required, heck, I'd be happy to pay my grips $300 a day, my DP $600, my PAs $200, etc. But that's just not the reality of most shoots. The reality is there is never enough in the budget, until you get to union levels, and then you have larger budgets where everyone can get paid an inflated sum of money, including myself.
I don't think your average director is worth $10,000/week either, but that's the going rate a lot of times for TV shows, etc., I think that's actually like the minimum. I doubt it would be impossible to find other highly qualified directors who would be happy to work for $1,000 week just to get such a great opportunity, but those are the rules for DGA stuff so that's usually how it goes.
To argue about the inherent worth of someone's time is just silly, there is no inherent worth, there is replacement cost and value. If you're a grip, you have no value, because nobody is going to see the project because you gripped it, so you only have the replacement cost, which is what it costs to get another, similarly skilled grip. If that's $200/day, the market has spoken. If suddenly everyone said screw this, I don't want to be a grip, and there was a huge shortage, sure, maybe grips go up to $500/day, then supply comes back to meet demand. It's simple market economics, don't shoot me for following them. You act like I set the rules. I just follow the rules.
And I pay better than most people at my level. I routinely see people post on craigslist, "Need makeup artist, no pay, but great experience!" I at least pay $10/hr to everyone on set except maybe if I have a few PAs, but in general everyone gets paid at least $10/hr, which is crappy pay but then again most people on set would be more like $15 at least, some $20, for stuff I finance myself that isn't terrible. In your opinion, instead, I should just not do any of my own projects, because I can't afford to pay huge sums of money, so rather than find people excited about the project who care more about the project and the experience than the pay, I should sit at home and wait for a client to pay me a huge amount of money so I can pay my crew a lot. You live in a fantasy world. When I take a project from a client, I'm likely to be paying $25/hr much of the time. On a training video I did, DP got $750 for a day and a half, that's great pay by almost anyone's standards. Actress made $700, grips $525, not really bad pay for anyone. Don't vilify me for working within the budgets I have. I fight for the best budget I can get. Do you know what I made on the training video for my time? $200/day. I had 10 days of work on that project and my total pay was a flat fee of $2,000. Everyone on my cast and crew made more per day than I did. So, you know what? Screw you for acting like I'm the bad guy. I take care of my crews, I don't overpay myself at their expense, I get the most I can from a client, but I don't turn down work that I need, just like you, because I'm so spoiled and arrogant that I think $25/hr is unacceptable pay. I'd rather have a project where I get only $20/hr and I have to pay the crew $25/hr because at least I am working, and at least I can help out the crew guys I know with some money in the meantime. Anyone who has worked with me would agree I treat a crew with respect, everyone is important in my book, from PA to DP, they all make it work, that doesn't mean they're all worth the same daily pay, but it does mean they all deserve to be treated well, fed well, and given respect.
On my corporate work, I paid the DP more per hour than I got paid. Why? Because he had more experience at his job than I do at mine. You can accuse me of a lot of things, but don't give me this crap about how I treat crews unfairly. I am one of the fairest guys you will ever meet. I give whatever I can to my crews. I'm sorry my clients don't yet pay enough for all of us to make what you think we all deserve. But don't tell me how to run my business, you clueless n00b.
If you can't live well on $25/hr you're a tool. I guess you must think school teachers making $15/hr aren't worth as much as you because you can... what, rig a light? Get real. When you get to the point where you are really better than everyone else at what you do, then yes, you can start asking for $100/hr and maybe get it. But until then, join the real world guys. Who are you anyway? I've never heard of you, you've never heard of me, and you say you're worth more than $25/hr? Ok, why? Because you're so great at your job that nobody else can do it the way you do? If that's the case, great, but more than likely it isn't. People like us are replaceable. If I don't want to do a corporate video project, someone else will, and I've not done 10 years of work where I can say I deserve more than $25/hr. If you have, more power to you, that's awesome. But don't tell me what I should accept. My friends are in med school, law school, grad school, etc., and the ones out there working aren't making $15/hr most of the time, even with college degrees at respectable businesses, so for you to say I should be turning down $25/hr for my time plus being paid fairly for my equipment, I think you're insane. I'll turn that work down when my time is so valuable that I have too much work and not enough time. But until then, I'm obviously not worth more than $25/hr either. And if I'm not, damned if some 20-something graphic designer is worth $75, screw that crap.
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Wow... JonathanLB .... With no disrespect.... You are intitled to your opinion and some of your points are valid and seem to be well thought out for yourself....
It is of my opinion that you have the "Perfect Recipe" for a business that will not grow or will fail. It's very obvious that you have very little business background. But guess what... It's not your fault. Film making is an art and we are Artists.... Just about polar opposite to a business person.
If I were to tell you I mark up just about every charge and expense between 10 and 100% you would tell me I'm a ripping off my clients. Not so.... I'm in business to make money. I give an estimate to my client and don't go over it. If something ends up costing more .... I submit a change order before I go over budget. If your laying out money ..... You better be making money on that money. Thats just basic business 101
I was brought up "Old School"
- Surround yourself with good people- They make you look good.
- The less you have to worry about what others are doing... The more time you have to be creative and put that extra something into your work.
- Always give more than is expected.
- Deliver on time.
- Always make sure your client is happy.
- Charge what your worth.... And a little bit more.
- Do I do projects with no profit?..... Yes guilty!
- Do I do projects that cost me money?..... Yes guilty, If I believe in the cause.
- Do I over estimate jobs I don't want to do.... Sometimes. Do I get get excited about the job if I get it? YES!
For the record, I could live on $25.00 an hour..... If didn't have any expenses.
frisco
It is of my opinion that you have the "Perfect Recipe" for a business that will not grow or will fail. It's very obvious that you have very little business background. But guess what... It's not your fault. Film making is an art and we are Artists.... Just about polar opposite to a business person.
If I were to tell you I mark up just about every charge and expense between 10 and 100% you would tell me I'm a ripping off my clients. Not so.... I'm in business to make money. I give an estimate to my client and don't go over it. If something ends up costing more .... I submit a change order before I go over budget. If your laying out money ..... You better be making money on that money. Thats just basic business 101
I was brought up "Old School"
- Surround yourself with good people- They make you look good.
- The less you have to worry about what others are doing... The more time you have to be creative and put that extra something into your work.
- Always give more than is expected.
- Deliver on time.
- Always make sure your client is happy.
- Charge what your worth.... And a little bit more.
- Do I do projects with no profit?..... Yes guilty!
- Do I do projects that cost me money?..... Yes guilty, If I believe in the cause.
- Do I over estimate jobs I don't want to do.... Sometimes. Do I get get excited about the job if I get it? YES!
For the record, I could live on $25.00 an hour..... If didn't have any expenses.
frisco