Flash XDR on HPX300

Dear Lonnie,

We do have a rail mount for the Flash XDR.

This mount attaches to any 15mm (60 mm spacing) rails. But typically, this is used with Zacuto rails. The rail mount also allows for a Anton Bauer Gold Mount battery.

We are currently designing a rail support system that allows 15mm rails out front and 15 mm rails in the back.
 
Perhaps we could move the EX1/XDR conversation over to the EX1 forum. Frankly I don't see the need to record to an 8 Bit 4:2:2 Long Gop codec for the same price as a couple of P2 cards which would get me 10bit 4:2:2 I-Frame only.

Thanks,

Jan
 
do post pix of setups where one can sandwich XDR between Camera & Anton Batt system ! would be a sight to see.

Cost wise (APPROX)

HPX300 = 8500
XDR = 5000
4x32GB cards CF = 250

All for Two hours & 22minutes of footage I have spent = 13750$


HPX300 = 8500
2x64GB cards P2 = 5200

All for Two hours of footage I have spent = 13700$
( i still lose 22minutes recording capab here)

But in long run say when i have to shoot about 6-8 hours long event then may be XDR way is cost effective (no comparison between XDR's Lgop & P2 AVCintra100 capabilities or 8vs10bit info) plain business maths to asses the investment, I can use my personal laptiop to copy onto to external HDDs from CF readers in XDR way or I can burn a BIG WIDE hole in pocket to buy the New P2 store (i dont get the model # right here i suppose) to read P2 & copy to external HDD. I am not too much into techincal aspects or quality diff between the XDR or P2 way but i am trying to make a way out to have a HD shoot at the best possible way. i am desperate to debut my HD Shoot FULL raster's !
 
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When going the XDR WAY then i can use http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...31B192002_P_7000_Multimedia_Photo_Viewer.html or similar products & can swap internal HDD with some 500+ Gigs and have my CF cards copied as ordinary DATA (though not viewable on the data assistant) but stil i am mobile with field recording of data with a fraction of cost of what panny offer us as their P2store types. pls correct me if my dream sounds vague !
 
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Big Brother said:
Cost wise (APPROX)

HPX300 = 8500
XDR = 5000
4x32GB cards CF = 250

All for Two hours & 22minutes of footage I have spent = 13750$


HPX300 = 8500
2x64GB cards P2 = 5200

All for Two hours of footage I have spent = 13700$
( i still lose 22minutes recording capab here)
Click to expand...

To make this comparison equal, you need to mention that AVC-Intra 50 is 1440x1080 or 960x720 with 4:2:0 color but still 10 bit.

So the real comparison is 4:2:2 8bit vs 4:2:0 10bit

Call me a curmudgeon, and I know that 1/3" is the new 2/3", and it's all about the codec, but are we really talking about $13,500 for four hours of recording with a 1/3" chip camera?

Seems expensive to have the hole world in focus...
 
Big Brother said:
do post pix of setups where one can sandwich XDR between Camera & Anton Batt system ! would be a sight to see.
Cost wise (APPROX)
HPX300 = 8500
XDR = 5000
4x32GB cards CF = 250

All for Two hours & 22minutes of footage I have spent = 13750$
Click to expand...

HPX300 $8495
2 64GB cards, $2399(B & H) X 2 = $4798
Total $13,293
And this gets you 4:2:2 10 Bit recording that is I frame only instead of 8 bit 4:2:2 Long Gop.

So for a sacrifice of 22 minutes you can improve the overall quality of your image by going 10 bit and I-Frame only. Seems like a better deal when you are considering the overall objective is to get the best quality you can get in acquisition.


XDR way or I can burn a BIG WIDE hole in pocket to buy the New P2 store (i dont get the model # right here i suppose) to read P2 & copy to external HDD.
Click to expand...

You don't need to buy the P2 Portable, you can do this off of the camera or using the P2 Card slot or the Duel Adapter.

I am not too much into techincal aspects or quality diff between the XDR or P2 way but i am trying to make a way out to have a HD shoot at the best possible way. i am desperate to debut my HD Shoot FULL raster's !
Click to expand...

And if you don't fully understand the difference between the impact of 8 bit vs 10 bit, think which gives me more choices, 256 or 1024? Math would point you to 1024. Long GOP or Individual Frames. Individual Frames will give you more control over the compression scheme.

Add onto that other factors that are relevant in a file based workflow. Like Clip repair in the case of a loss of power. Metadata, when trying to find a singular clip in a 300 hour pool of clips, MetaData is your friend. Parity checking during record. Robustness of the media. You need to see my demo on this one, because my phone is a hot line, I hear what people do and what accidently happens.

Again this is tunring into one of those debates that basically assumes that the cards are the same, they are not. There is a lot more muscle in the P2 than what most will ever use, I hope. Built to take a beating and keep on working. Designed to close the recording every 2 seconds so that in the case of power failure, the most you will ever lose is 2 seconds. Yes they both record footage but there are a good number of failsafes that are built into P2.

Best,

Jan
 
Jan, Speaking theoretically,

when i have to shoot & yes we do shoot events for about 6-8 hours a day typically. Then i do need at least 4 64GB cards which will let Two shoot & other two cards consume time siting on a P2store or some laptop adopter. so the calc has to be as under

- HPX300 = 8500
- 4 64GB cards = 9600
- P2 store = approx 5500

I dont want to have a laptop thereby freeing myself from keeping one more operator (hidden cost which panny doesnt think) so i am FORCED into a P2 store ! so a cool drool of $23,600 WOAH ! pls correct me ...

Where as if i go the xdr way then i save good $$$ on card cost & can use ordinary Stand alone HDD store to copy the CF data without being connected to a combersome laptop etc.

The whole idea is to get the best juices from HPX300 & also by keeping the cost contained, cox as of now whas looking to ordinary users like me that Panny is keeping the cost of Cameras low there by recovering the balance amount thru the cards !

I think for me an ideal way out for event shoot is

- HPX300
-XDR with say aboput 8 CF 32gb cards
-one Standalone HDD store

I do end up with 422 Lgop footage though 8bit,,,, whats the big deal for me 8 instead of 10 bit in my projects, we shoot live events, weds, conferences etc. May be i am right or may be you proove me otherwise. The debate goes on.

best way to keep the discussion contained is to have TWO HPX300 shooting same event with two setups
- One on Exorbitantly priced P2 cards (i feel the cost should be reduced not as an annual fair but more often) to get 422 10 bit thing
- Second one with XDR loaded with CF cards to get the lGop 422 8 bit color space

may be then we see the videos with lay mans eyes & decide.

period.
 
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MPEG2 offers very good quality video at relatively low data-rates. Flash XDR offers a
very wide range of MPEG2 data-rates from 18 Mbps up to 160 Mbps. Additionally, the
MPEG2 CODEC can be programmed to either Long-GOP or I-Frame only recording
modes, allowing the user to make trade-offs between recording efficiency and ease of
editing.

Compared to JPEG2000, MPEG2 is substantially faster to decode (improved playback
performance) and has been widely adopted for broadcast industry (ASI requires MPEG
compression). The MPEG2 hardware CODEC can provide much greater compression
efficiency (storage time) compared to strictly I-Frame based CODECs such as ProRes 422
or DNxHD CODEC. (However, the MPEG2 CODEC can be configured for Long-GOP or
I-Frame encoding). MPEG2 is also supported by a much wider range of NLE programs.

H.264 / AVC CODECS are not widely supported in NLE programs or by hardware
manufacturers at this point in time.

-- all thats laid out on XDR website !

Does that mean anything over AVC-I frame something like 100mbps vs MPEG2 - I frame only 160Mbps
 
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Big Brother said:
H.264 / AVC CODECS are not widely supported in NLE programs or by hardware
manufacturers at this point in time.
Click to expand...
Avid, full support with no transcoding
Edius, states support on their website?
FCP, via transcoding to prores

Adobe are the only I remember not supporting avc in any form yet.

Basicly the suites most used professionally support avc-i in some form, FCP need native support asap.

The P2 cost have been discussed before, yes there is a investment to take in P2 cards as with all proven broadcast gear, with the support to back it up. This is an important factor for many costumers. Sony and Panasonic, maybe Ikegami are the only suppliers that have the network of dealers to support their gear around the world. The college where I study recently bought 10 hpx171, 4 hpx2100 and 1 hpx2700 to replace the older dvx and dvcpro50 cams. As far as I can see one important factor are P2 as a workflow, no need for expensive decks and its rock solid and flexible. It's expensive for the smaller firms or freelancers as me, but it's worth it.
 
Big Brother said:
MPEG2 offers very good quality video at relatively low data-rates. Flash XDR offers a
very wide range of MPEG2 data-rates from 18 Mbps up to 160 Mbps. Additionally, the
MPEG2 CODEC can be programmed to either Long-GOP or I-Frame only recording
modes, allowing the user to make trade-offs between recording efficiency and ease of
editing.

Compared to JPEG2000, MPEG2 is substantially faster to decode (improved playback
performance) and has been widely adopted for broadcast industry (ASI requires MPEG
compression). The MPEG2 hardware CODEC can provide much greater compression
efficiency (storage time) compared to strictly I-Frame based CODECs such as ProRes 422
or DNxHD CODEC. (However, the MPEG2 CODEC can be configured for Long-GOP or
I-Frame encoding). MPEG2 is also supported by a much wider range of NLE programs.

H.264 / AVC CODECS are not widely supported in NLE programs or by hardware
manufacturers at this point in time.

Does that mean anything over AVC-I frame something like 100mbps vs MPEG2 - I frame only 160Mbps
Click to expand...

We now have several Thomson Viper users shooting documentaries using the Flash XDR, with plans to print to film. I personally reviewed some of the footage shot at 1080psf23.98 at 160 Mbps; it was awesome. The detail was really amazing.

If you compared the two CODECs side by side when recording at 1080psf23.98/24 (which is the most popular format for film), you have the AVC-I 10-bit at 80 Mbps (effective) vs the MPEG2-I 8-bit at 160 Mbps. 10-bit is better than 8-bit, but 160 Mbps is better than 80 Mbps. However, we are talking about 10-bit compressed vs 8-bit compressed video. The 10-bit / 8-bit quality differences are certainly diminished after going through a compression cycle, as some of the resolution is lost.

So, it's really hard to compare just by looking at the numbers. The real test comes when you sit down and look at the images side by side. I do think there will be differences, but they will likely be very subtle. 10-bit should look better for banding issues, 160 Mbps will provide better detail. (Yes, I know AVC-I is more efficient than MPEG2, but the difference is very small at the higher bit-rates. And it all depends on the silicon implementation).

Just for completeness, we will very soon introduce the lower-cost ultra-portable nanoFlash, which fits in the palm of your hand, weights under 1 lb, draws about 7 watts of power and has both HD/SD-SDI and HDMI I/O. (Yes, it still uses the same affordable Compact Flash cards). It should be easy to mount to any camera.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design
 
Two questions:

1) The website says only 50 & 100Mb/s Long GOP are shipping. Is 160Mb/s also shipping?

2) Is the nanoFlash XDR available? Does it also do 160Mb/s as it said in the preliminary specs? The website has no availability info.
 
i feel AVCintra 10bit at 100mbps wil have no major/drastic visual impact over MPEG2 Iframe 160mbps unless otherwise proved by Panasonic.

i am very keen to travel the HD path with HPX300 mated with XDR to its back ! i hope HPX doesnt need P2 card in it belly to allow external recording. Also XDR can be triggered into rec/pause mode from the camera switch on LENS. it wil be very exciting to tread the path without shelling out the $$$ expensive P2 cards :)

I was hearing from (gossipMONGERS) that coming NAB the p2 cards will be slashed by half their cost or near by ?
 
DavidNJ said:
Two questions:

1) The website says only 50 & 100Mb/s Long GOP are shipping. Is 160Mb/s also shipping?

2) Is the nanoFlash XDR available? Does it also do 160Mb/s as it said in the preliminary specs? The website has no availability info.
Click to expand...

Hi David,

In answer to your questions:

1) The Flash XDR can record at 50 or 100Mb/s long-GOP and at 100 or 160 Mb/s I-Frame only, and it can do that today. If you plan on using 160Mb/s I-Frame you will need to use the faster 300x speed CompactFlash cards. The standard 133x cards are not fast enough to deal with this bitrate.

2) The nanoFlash is not currently shipping. And yes, it will record at 160Mbps I-Frame only. Again, you will need to use the faster 300x cards.
A comprehensive FAQ on the nanoFlash is available here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachme...d1236373753-nanoflash-faqs-nanoflash-faqs.pdf

Hope that helps :beer:
 
Big Brother said:
i feel AVCintra 10bit at 100mbps wil have no major/drastic visual impact over MPEG2 Iframe 160mbps unless otherwise proved by Panasonic.

i am very keen to travel the HD path with HPX300 mated with XDR to its back ! i hope HPX doesnt need P2 card in it belly to allow external recording. Also XDR can be triggered into rec/pause mode from the camera switch on LENS. it wil be very exciting to tread the path without shelling out the $$$ expensive P2 cards :)

I was hearing from (gossipMONGERS) that coming NAB the p2 cards will be slashed by half their cost or near by ?
Click to expand...

You can start/stop recording on the XDR using the record button on your camera, using incrementing timecode embedded in the HD-SDI stream.

How this works:
-You connect your camcorder's HD-SDI output to the input on the XDR.
-You set the XDR's record trigger option to Timecode, and set the timecode source option to Embedded.
-You set your camcorder to REC-RUN timecode.
-When the camera is switched on and in idle mode, the timecode is stationary.
-When you hit the record button on your camcorder, the timecode starts to increment.
-The XDR detects the incrementing timecode in the HD-SDI stream from the camera and starts recording (there is about a 2-3 second delay from hitting the button to the recording starting).
-When you hit the record button on the camcorder to stop recording, the timecode stops incrementing.
-The XDR detects that the timecode has stopped incrementing, and stops recording.

For the camcorder to use REC-RUN timecode in this fashion typically requires there to be media present in the camcorder for it to record to, so in your case you would need a P2 card present.
This can present issues in itself as with most camcorders when you run out of in-camcorder media, the REC-RUN timecode stops running as you'd need it to.
I believe some Panasonic camcorders have a loop-record feature, which is ideal if you're not bothered about making a back-up copy to P2, as it essentially gives you infinite in-camcorder media and the REC-RUN timecode will keep going as you need it to.

In addition to this there is another, simpler option: a remote trigger.
-Attach a remote trigger to the 4-pin hirose connector on the XDR, tie this to the HD-SDI cable and run it back up to your camcorder.
-Tape the trigger next to your camcorder's record button.
-The trigger now acts as your REC button for starting and stopping the XDR recording.

The beauty of this is the simplicity of it; you remove all the hassle of checking settings and media housekeeping inherent with timecode triggering.
It also gives you the freedom to use timecode modes other than REC-RUN.
Triggers are available with an inbuilt tally light, so you know when the XDR is recording and when it's not without having to look at the unit itself.

As for the AVC-I versus MPEG-2 debate, here's a CODEC comparison chart based on research done by Sony's Chief Technology Officer:

7941d1213657171-codec-quality-chart-codec-quality-chart.jpg


Food for thought.
 
it will be really nice f you could post few pix of such trigger sin use on large Camcorders etc.

I was also wanting to know if this is of any use

http://antonbauer.com/hotswap.htm

Is this what one can use for Batt & XDR mounting on Camcorder.

Also are there any parale video comparision of AVCintra100 vs Iframe @ 160
 
Big Brother said:
MPEG2 offers very good quality video at relatively low data-rates. Flash XDR offers a very wide range of MPEG2 data-rates from 18 Mbps up to 160 Mbps. Additionally, the MPEG2 CODEC can be programmed to either Long-GOP or I-Frame only recording modes, allowing the user to make trade-offs between recording efficiency and ease of editing.
Click to expand...

The XDR does not do I-Frame at this time.


Compared to JPEG2000, MPEG2 is substantially faster to decode (improved playback performance) and has been widely adopted for broadcast industry (ASI requires MPEG compression). The MPEG2 hardware CODEC can provide much greater compression efficiency (storage time) compared to strictly I-Frame based CODECs such as ProRes 422 or DNxHD CODEC. (However, the MPEG2 CODEC can be configured for Long-GOP or I-Frame encoding). MPEG2 is also supported by a much wider range of NLE programs.
Click to expand...


How fast it decodes is not as nearly as important as to how it encodes. Efficiency is not the primary goal in the acquisition of footage, or at least it shouldn't be. Getting the image encoded so that it can be used later is the primary goal. It is one of the reasons that in our upper end of the product line we use only I-Fram codecs. And actually AVC-Intra is pretty well supported at this time, including Apple, Avid, GV on the Edius platform, and a number of others. We ar only 3 weeks or so away form NAB where the landscape cna change again.

H.264 / AVC CODECS are not widely supported in NLE programs or by hardware manufacturers at this point in time.
Click to expand...

Wrong.

-- all thats laid out on XDR website !
Click to expand...

Perhaps they might want to make corrections on their website as they are outstnandingly incorrect. If you want more information about how advanced the AVC codecs are, don't ask they guy that is making the MPEG2 codecs. Read the two articles that are in the latest SMPTE Journal for an unbiased Scientific Review.


Does that mean anything over AVC-I frame something like 100mbps vs MPEG2 - I frame only 160Mbps
Click to expand...


256 vs 1024, see you in color correction.

Best,

Jan
 
Big Brother said:
I was also wanting to know if this is of any use

http://antonbauer.com/hotswap.htm

Is this what one can use for Batt & XDR mounting on Camcorder.

Also are there any parale video comparision of AVCintra100 vs Iframe @ 160
Click to expand...

The camera draws 18W. The AB Device is more than a mounting bracket. It will be looking to swap power to the second slot.

There is not a parallel of the 8Bit 160 to a 10 Bit codec. 256 levels vs 1024.
 
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