Big Brother
Carbonite Member
1. I hope its compatible for AVC100/50 1080/50i recording
2. How does it gets mounted on AB Mount batts or recorders
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2. How does it gets mounted on AB Mount batts or recorders
Views invited !
Flash XDR on HPX300
- Thread starter Big Brother
- Start date
Doesn't that just capture to Sony XDCAM Long GOP HD, at 100 Mbps or 50 Mbps 4:2:2 data-rates?
Barry_Green
Moderator
The Flash XDR doesn't record AVC-Intra, it records MPEG-2. It would certainly work with an HPX300 recording the SDI output, but the recording won't be AVC-Intra, it'll be MPEG-2.
Big Brother
Carbonite Member
thx barry for your reply. But i still am amused how does it get mounted between camera's AB mount & my AB Battery ?
BerkeleyBob
Active member
Barry, I guess Panasonics answer to the XDR will be the HMR10 which also records to SDHC (due out later this year). Do you happen to know if it's 10 bit?
My understand is that AVCHD is 8 bit and the HMR 10 records AVCHD.
Barry_Green
Moderator
As David said, AVCHD is 8-bit 4:2:0. That HMR10 is an HD-SDI recorder that records to an SDHC card in the AVCHD format. So, depending on price, it would be in competition with the XDR or NanoFlash in that it's a commodity memory HD-SDI recorder, but... if the price is the same or near, the XDR/Nano will have a significant advantage as far as maximum potential quality goes. AVCHD can match XDCAM-EX recording, but the XDR and Nano can go to 100mbps 4:2:2, which should be a lot cleaner and better than AVCHD.
Of course, if the HMR10 is substantially less expensive, then it's a whole different ballgame.
Of course, if the HMR10 is substantially less expensive, then it's a whole different ballgame.
Big Brother
Carbonite Member
BUt i wonder if i record on MPEG2 Long GOP mode 100mbps of XDR then will it be better then DVCPRO HD or AVC50/100 of HPX300 ? Apart from saving a huge cost of P2 cards. Also will the XDR unit record with pause/record command from the camcorder body. Also is it necessary to have a P2 slot loaded with P2 card to shoot & record on XDR if so then may be one can use just One P2 card in continue mode (if available) to keep reusing the single P2 card & keep shooting on XDR !
Barry_Green
Moderator
No possible way will 100mbps long-GOP MPEG-2 be better than AVC-I @ 100mbps. But it would almost certainly be better than DVCPRO-HD, and should be better than AVC-I 50mbps.
You shouldn't need any P2 cards in order to record on the XDR. But when you talk about the "huge cost" of P2 cards, don't forget the "huge cost" of a $5,000 XDR; you can buy an awful lot of gigs of P2 for the cost of one XDR. At today's prices you could get about 128GB of P2... that's almost six hours of 720/24pN or twelve hours of 720/24pN @ AVCI-50, so you'd have to decide if that's enough storage for what you need, versus having a secondary recorder and battery and tracking four CF cards and whatnot.
You shouldn't need any P2 cards in order to record on the XDR. But when you talk about the "huge cost" of P2 cards, don't forget the "huge cost" of a $5,000 XDR; you can buy an awful lot of gigs of P2 for the cost of one XDR. At today's prices you could get about 128GB of P2... that's almost six hours of 720/24pN or twelve hours of 720/24pN @ AVCI-50, so you'd have to decide if that's enough storage for what you need, versus having a secondary recorder and battery and tracking four CF cards and whatnot.
Barry, in theory I agree that 100Mbps Long Gop Mpeg 2 will not be as good as 100Mbps Avc Intra on codec alone. But, the final image will be a culmination of not just the codec, but also the lens and the front end electronics (chips, AD processors, etc.) of the camera as you know...
The Jist:
An EX1 with XDR is $11K-ish and will record from 1/2"chips to 422 Long Gop Mpeg2.
An HPX300 with ample P2 is $11k-ish and will record from 1/3"chips to 422 Avc-Intra.
So here's where I'm at: if spending $11K-ish, which will deliver a superior image?
... or will the imagery be just so close, it will just come down to workflow, personal tastes, and where our past investments will play into our next purchase workflows as well (ie. if you already have a P2 investment - this may be a no-brainer.)
Your thoughts...
Thanks,
Lonnie
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, again, it depends on a million other factors too, such as the lens -- the EX1's lens has chromatic aberration, the HPX300 has CAC to eliminate it. And you can change the HPX300's lens.
The EX1 is going to have a small advantage in sensitivity and noise and dynamic range and DOF. The HPX300 is going to have an advantage in rejecting infrared; if you've got an IR-sensitive shot you're going to have to deal with filtration and perhaps green vignetting etc. on the EX1.
The HPX300 is going to have the "panasonic" gamma and color. The EX1 is going to have more tuneability, but not necessarily the "same" look. Do you want that look? That's not something that comes down to chips and recording formats, that's internal processing, etc.
So - the thread here wasn't about EX1 vs. HPX300, it was about using the Flash XDR on an HPX300. All the discussion here was about using the HPX300 as the camera head, and then the question was about recording on P2 or on the XDR, and in that case I'd take 10-bit intraframe AVC over long-GOP 8-bit MPEG-2 any day of the week.
The question you're asking is entirely different, and there's merit to the question of course. I think the better question would be EX3 vs. HPX300 as the camera head though, because then you can eliminate the EX1's fixed lens from the equation.
The EX1 is going to have a small advantage in sensitivity and noise and dynamic range and DOF. The HPX300 is going to have an advantage in rejecting infrared; if you've got an IR-sensitive shot you're going to have to deal with filtration and perhaps green vignetting etc. on the EX1.
The HPX300 is going to have the "panasonic" gamma and color. The EX1 is going to have more tuneability, but not necessarily the "same" look. Do you want that look? That's not something that comes down to chips and recording formats, that's internal processing, etc.
So - the thread here wasn't about EX1 vs. HPX300, it was about using the Flash XDR on an HPX300. All the discussion here was about using the HPX300 as the camera head, and then the question was about recording on P2 or on the XDR, and in that case I'd take 10-bit intraframe AVC over long-GOP 8-bit MPEG-2 any day of the week.
The question you're asking is entirely different, and there's merit to the question of course. I think the better question would be EX3 vs. HPX300 as the camera head though, because then you can eliminate the EX1's fixed lens from the equation.
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
The AVC-Intra has an advantage in that it is 10-bit while all of the MPEG-2 options on the Flash XDR are 8-Bit.
The Flash XDR does give you flexibility in that you can choose 50 or 100 Mbps Long-GOP (8-bit), or 100 Mbps or 160 Mbps I-Frame Only (MPEG 8-Bit). We also support 4:2:0 35 Mbps files in case someone needs a very long recording time.
In addition, a future (extra cost) option for the Flash XDR will provide full uncompresed 4:2:2 10-Bit recordings.
However, we do recommend the 100 Mbps Long-GOP or 160 Mbps I-Frame Only as the workflow is so much easier than uncompressed.
Another factor to consider is editing in general. I believe that it is safe to say that at this time, our MPEG files are easier to edit than AVC-Intra. Our files can just be dropped onto a HD timeline and edited without any transcoding.
Many equate all MPEG-2 Long- GOP with HDV. Our files, since they are full raster, are much easier to edit than the 1440 x 1080 HDV files.
With the 1440 x 1080 files, with a pixel aspect ratio of 1.3333, there is a lot of math being performed in the NLE in order to convert the image to full 1920 x 1080. With our full raster files, this computer intensive processing is not needed, nor used thus making the editing process smoother.
One other difference is that AVC-Intra 100 is only 100 Mbps in some modes, in others it is less than 100 Mbps.
Our 100 Mbps I-Frame Only mode and our 160 Mbps I-Frame Only mode use the full specified Constant Bit Rate modes in all formats and frame rates.
With the highest of high-end cameras, the Thomson Viper, with the Flash XDR, both our I-Frame Only and Long-GOP modes have been thoroughly evaluated and approved for quality by independent experts.
The advantage still goes to the AVC-Intra in that it is 10-bit.
The Flash XDR does have an advantage in that 2 Hours and 22 minutes of 100 Mbps CompactFlash card media costs only $360. At 50 Mbps, one gets 4 Hours and 44 minutes using the same 128 GB of CompactFlash card media.
I hope this helps and I hope this is perceived as being fair and factual.
Disclaimer: I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for Convergent Design, makers of the Flash XDR.
The Flash XDR does give you flexibility in that you can choose 50 or 100 Mbps Long-GOP (8-bit), or 100 Mbps or 160 Mbps I-Frame Only (MPEG 8-Bit). We also support 4:2:0 35 Mbps files in case someone needs a very long recording time.
In addition, a future (extra cost) option for the Flash XDR will provide full uncompresed 4:2:2 10-Bit recordings.
However, we do recommend the 100 Mbps Long-GOP or 160 Mbps I-Frame Only as the workflow is so much easier than uncompressed.
Another factor to consider is editing in general. I believe that it is safe to say that at this time, our MPEG files are easier to edit than AVC-Intra. Our files can just be dropped onto a HD timeline and edited without any transcoding.
Many equate all MPEG-2 Long- GOP with HDV. Our files, since they are full raster, are much easier to edit than the 1440 x 1080 HDV files.
With the 1440 x 1080 files, with a pixel aspect ratio of 1.3333, there is a lot of math being performed in the NLE in order to convert the image to full 1920 x 1080. With our full raster files, this computer intensive processing is not needed, nor used thus making the editing process smoother.
One other difference is that AVC-Intra 100 is only 100 Mbps in some modes, in others it is less than 100 Mbps.
Our 100 Mbps I-Frame Only mode and our 160 Mbps I-Frame Only mode use the full specified Constant Bit Rate modes in all formats and frame rates.
With the highest of high-end cameras, the Thomson Viper, with the Flash XDR, both our I-Frame Only and Long-GOP modes have been thoroughly evaluated and approved for quality by independent experts.
The advantage still goes to the AVC-Intra in that it is 10-bit.
The Flash XDR does have an advantage in that 2 Hours and 22 minutes of 100 Mbps CompactFlash card media costs only $360. At 50 Mbps, one gets 4 Hours and 44 minutes using the same 128 GB of CompactFlash card media.
I hope this helps and I hope this is perceived as being fair and factual.
Disclaimer: I am the Director of Sales and Marketing for Convergent Design, makers of the Flash XDR.
Dan,
I understand that the XDR, off the shelf right now, is an 8 bit, Long Gop, Sony codec. But with a future firmware upgrade, the XDR is poised to do uncompressed 10 bit - that does indicate the XDR is hardware capable of 10 bit.
Thus, would the XDR be able to hardware handle a future 10 bit compressed codec if you were able to license one (like if you and Cineform shook hands for example)?
I realize this is all speculative, but it is a cool & unique feature that your little box has the potential of "future proofing" via a firmware codec upgrade...
Thanks,
Lonnie
I understand that the XDR, off the shelf right now, is an 8 bit, Long Gop, Sony codec. But with a future firmware upgrade, the XDR is poised to do uncompressed 10 bit - that does indicate the XDR is hardware capable of 10 bit.
Thus, would the XDR be able to hardware handle a future 10 bit compressed codec if you were able to license one (like if you and Cineform shook hands for example)?
I realize this is all speculative, but it is a cool & unique feature that your little box has the potential of "future proofing" via a firmware codec upgrade...
Thanks,
Lonnie
Christian m
Well-known member
Avid are able to do that with Avc intra.
One issue with the EX1+recorder, the ergonomics for hand held use are...well...to be modest not good at all.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Lots of editors support AVC-Intra files on the timeline, including Avid and EDIUS and higher-up. It's not yet the case to be able to do that with FCP or Adobe.
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Lonnie,
We have two options, a future 10-bit Full uncompressed option, or the current MPEG-2 codec.
We use a module, from Sony, which does the MPEG-2 compression. The Sony PDW-700 has one of these chips, we have two.
We are not able, without hardware changes, support other codecs.
But, full uncompressed does not require a codec, so we can do that as a future firmware upgrade (an extra cost option).
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Christian,
Agreed, it is very difficult to mount anything, including the Flash XDR, on a Sony EX1.
The Flash XDR can be used with the EX1 in other configurations, such as in a backpack, or belt mounted. (This may work for some but not others, so this is not a universal solution). We have a wired remote control to make this feasible.
For some, the Flash XDR does not need to be mounted on the camera at all.
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
I believe it would be safe to say that the XDR is for more sophisticated users... and as such a lot of these users will be operating their cameras on rails. Mounting the XDR with a rigging that can attach/slide/undersling on the rails would be an approach I'd recommend...
Lonnie