C300: Feedback to Canon on C300 Mk2

[DLD]

I of course concede you could be right, but can you explain why you are so positive it isn't coming in a firmware update? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

Thanks!

It's been mentioned several times that MKII just doesn't have the processing power for 60p.

In another thread, I brought up the fact that the technology is widely available since the video processors/DSP chips can be bought off the shelf from a number of vendors (most of whom are huge global manufacturers such as Texas Instrument, STM Electronics and so on) and much lower priced cameras such as the soon-to-be released $2,000 Panasonic GH-5 have 60p. But Canon chose not to do this on C300 MKII and that's basically the end of the story.

And, if one feels like going into the discussion of the Japanese cartel economy - which is perfectly legal under the Japanese domestic laws - then there are other threads for it as well. In a nutshell, the features and performances of all products are agreed upon by the corporate officials years ahead of the release. That's why there are no sub-$1,000 ILC hybrids from anyone but Panasonic, no videocentric 4K NIkon camera, no sub-$10,000 Canon pro style, no $15,000 Sony pro style (F5 is too old to really count), etc.

Cartelization is also a reason why Black Magic Design and Red can still hold their own in the marketplace. Had the Japanese wanted to fight for those markets, they could have easily produced URSA and Raven/Dragon/Helium competitors. But those are small niches that don't cause much economic harm (unless you're Nikon) and they will be covered at some point anyway.

 

[bill totolo]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but I'd love to play back full clips without having to turn the camera off and reboot in "Media" mode, then vice versa to get back to "camera".

 

[Mark Smith]

+1. To that . Remember the lowly AF 100? Press a button to switch in a second or two between playback media mode and camera mode.

 

[kohl-sudduth]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but I'd love to play back full clips without having to turn the camera off and reboot in "Media" mode, then vice versa to get back to "camera".

+1 for sure.

Just finished a fast moving commercial shoot in a hospital with with one, max two, setups per location and several locations over the course of the day. Anytime we shot handheld without the Atomos for playback or client monitor attached, this became a real issue as I tried to show the client what we just shot, but the camera was needed at the next location. The time to power down, power up accumulates over the course of a long day.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

You all know you can customize a button to playback the last clip without going into media mode, right? Certainly faster than going into media mode and is typically what I use for playback after shooting a shot. Also with the C300 Mark II you can fast forward or rewind that clip's playback in 10 second increments with the joystick left to right (which you can't do on a C100).

You can't pause the clip, use more precise (than 10 second increments) fast forward and rewind, or playback clips further back than the last clip. So for more in-depth reviewing of footage you still need to go into media mode, which is a pain. Seems some of the video advantages of DSLRs still haven't made their way into video cameras.

 

[Run&Gun]

You all know you can customize a button to playback the last clip without going into media mode, right? Certainly faster than going into media mode and is typically what I use for playback after shooting a shot. Also with the C300 Mark II you can fast forward or rewind that clip's playback in 10 second increments with the joystick left to right (which you can't do on a C100).

You can't pause the clip, use more precise (than 10 second increments) fast forward and rewind, or playback clips further back than the last clip. So for more in-depth reviewing of footage you still need to go into media mode, which is a pain. Seems some of the video advantages of DSLRs still haven't made their way into video cameras.

Or the video advantages of other video cameras just haven't made it to Canon video cameras...

I hit two buttons on my F55 to bring up the thumbnails and then can play any of them back. Or just hit the THUMBNAIL button on my VariCam and I can look through the thumbnails and playback. And I don't even need to exit the THUMBNAIL/Playback mode to be able to record again, if need be.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

I recall playback on the FS7 being cumbersome and slower than the C300. I haven't used the F55 or Varicam.

 

[kohl-sudduth]

You all know you can customize a button to playback the last clip without going into media mode, right? Certainly faster than going into media mode and is typically what I use for playback after shooting a shot. Also with the C300 Mark II you can fast forward or rewind that clip's playback in 10 second increments with the joystick left to right (which you can't do on a C100).

You can't pause the clip, use more precise (than 10 second increments) fast forward and rewind, or playback clips further back than the last clip. So for more in-depth reviewing of footage you still need to go into media mode, which is a pain. Seems some of the video advantages of DSLRs still haven't made their way into video cameras.

Thank you for pointing it out. Thanks for the reminder. And yes for sure this is true. And very convenient for when the take that we wanted to playback is the last take. However, in a production environment doing take after take after take of the same set up, such is often not the case. Waiting for the camera to power down, then reboot to review to ensure that we got the precise shot we needed (composition, movement, eye trace, etc) to match cut with another shot... the time added up. Not a big drama though, but as this thread is a wishlist, I thought to do some wishing.

 

[Michel Talaïa]

For 4K 60p or more: why not a physical modification like for DPAF on the first C300 ? It should be possible.

 

[klk]

You all know you can customize a button to playback the last clip without going into media mode, right? Certainly faster than going into media mode and is typically what I use for playback after shooting a shot. Also with the C300 Mark II you can fast forward or rewind that clip's playback in 10 second increments with the joystick left to right (which you can't do on a C100).

You can't pause the clip, use more precise (than 10 second increments) fast forward and rewind, or playback clips further back than the last clip. So for more in-depth reviewing of footage you still need to go into media mode, which is a pain. Seems some of the video advantages of DSLRs still haven't made their way into video cameras.

+1. On the monitor unit I simply programed the "play" button to play back the last clip without resorting to rebooting the camera. Fast and easy, but not as good as the Varicam.

DNxHR. A ton of editors refuse to leave Avid, and a direct to edit codec for Avid would be great. For whatever reason some editors have to transcode Prores to DNxHR. I don't use Avid so I can't comment on the need to transcode Prores- that's what they tell me.

I wish Sony and Canon and Panasonic would follow Arri's (Amira, Alexa-Mini) lead and offer codecs editors use, and over the counter media like cFast cards- or Video Devices USB 3.0 SSD enclosures. When you need 4K RAW, then yes, you may need beefier/ faster media, but for compressed codecs cFast seems to be working for me.

Ergo wise, for the C300 Mk3 I'd prefer a baby C700. I'm in Anton Bauer land and prefer to stay that way with a built in (no external cable) battery mount.
Or lower the price of the C700 to $15k and release the C900 whatever.

I'd prefer the C700 but it doesn't make sense financially, unless the C700 becomes the camera everyone wants to hire.

 

[Run&Gun]

+1. On the monitor unit I simply programed the "play" button to play back the last clip without resorting to rebooting the camera. Fast and easy, but not as good as the Varicam.

DNxHR. A ton of editors refuse to leave Avid, and a direct to edit codec for Avid would be great. For whatever reason some editors have to transcode Prores to DNxHR. I don't use Avid so I can't comment on the need to transcode Prores- that's what they tell me.

I wish Sony and Canon and Panasonic would follow Arri's (Amira, Alexa-Mini) lead and offer codecs editors use, and over the counter media like cFast cards- or Video Devices USB 3.0 SSD enclosures. When you need 4K RAW, then yes, you may need beefier/ faster media, but for compressed codecs cFast seems to be working for me.

Ergo wise, for the C300 Mk3 I'd prefer a baby C700. I'm in Anton Bauer land and prefer to stay that way with a built in (no external cable) battery mount.
Or lower the price of the C700 to $15k and release the C900 whatever.

I'd prefer the C700 but it doesn't make sense financially, unless the C700 becomes the camera everyone wants to hire.

Well, Sony did give us(well for $2K) the ProRes/DNxHD board for the F5/55. I had it installed shortly after I bought my 55. I've used it once, maybe twice. Of course last week on a two-cam shoot the client wants C300 and the night before emails and asks if we can give them ProRes. So we broke out our old nanoFlashes and give them .MOV's. I HATE external recorders. So much to go wrong. On the last interview mine loses signal, so after the interview while we were striking, I had to play back my camera original into the nano to get a .MOV. We shake our heads all of the time why we can open up our laptops and play any codec, but these huge TV networks, etc. can only handle one or two codecs.

 

[klk]

Well, Sony did give us(well for $2K) the ProRes/DNxHD board for the F5/55. I had it installed shortly after I bought my 55. I've used it once, maybe twice. Of course last week on a two-cam shoot the client wants C300 and the night before emails and asks if we can give them ProRes. So we broke out our old nanoFlashes and give them .MOV's. I HATE external recorders. So much to go wrong. On the last interview mine loses signal, so after the interview while we were striking, I had to play back my camera original into the nano to get a .MOV. We shake our heads all of the time why we can open up our laptops and play any codec, but these huge TV networks, etc. can only handle one or two codecs.

At the end of the day we have to give clients what they are willing to pay for. C300 with Prores or DNxHR?? ***the things people as for. If they want 4K Prores I need to pickup an Odyssey 7Q(+) since C300 outputs 4k only in RAW- correct? (I have the Pix-E5)

You know the UrsaMini 4.6K outputs 4K via SDI (was it RGB??)- and of course records Prores internally. Maybe with the next generation BM will get it right and producers will be comfortable going BM. Until then- external recorders- which I agree, are additional errors waiting to happen.

 

[jcs]

At the end of the day we have to give clients what they are willing to pay for. C300 with Prores or DNxHR?? ***the things people as for. If they want 4K Prores I need to pickup an Odyssey 7Q(+) since C300 outputs 4k only in RAW- correct? (I have the Pix-E5)

Yes, I recently found this out from testing then googling (not really clear in the manual?). The C300 II only appears to output 4K via SDI and RAW. Want 4K monitoring? Canon has a special 4K monitor for that ($30K- hey it's HDR (there's also an $18K version)). I think this is the best deal for 4K RAW to ProRes 4K for the C300 II: https://www.atomos.com/shogun-flame ($1700). If the 4K can be run through the 4K SDI out while in 4K RAW mode, that could be a cheaper way to get 4K monitoring or 4K live streaming. I was looking for a way to use the C300 II for 4K live streaming (something I can do with a GH4 or A7S II).

 

[klk]

Yes, I recently found this out from testing then googling (not really clear in the manual?). The C300 II only appears to output 4K via SDI and RAW. Want 4K monitoring? Canon has a special 4K monitor for that ($30K- hey it's HDR (there's also an $18K version)). I think this is the best deal for 4K RAW to ProRes 4K for the C300 II: https://www.atomos.com/shogun-flame ($1700). If the 4K can be run through the 4K SDI out while in 4K RAW mode, that could be a cheaper way to get 4K monitoring or 4K live streaming. I was looking for a way to use the C300 II for 4K live streaming (something I can do with a GH4 or A7S II).

I've actually owned O7Qs before- with a C500. Good build quality though I prefer the layout of the Pix-E5 (no RAW however). Multiple union AC's on different jobs have reported back to me about Atomos products- not good. But I've never used Atomos before, so just relaying 2nd hand info- and some of the newer products "look" like they have better build quality than before. Dealing with Mitch and Dan direct however can make all the difference in a positive way.

 

[jcs]

I've actually owned O7Qs before- with a C500. Good build quality though I prefer the layout of the Pix-E5 (no RAW however). Multiple union AC's on different jobs have reported back to me about Atomos products- not good. But I've never used Atomos before, so just relaying 2nd hand info- and some of the newer products "look" like they have better build quality than before. Dealing with Mitch and Dan direct however can make all the difference in a positive way.

Yeah just read some troubling info about Atomos with the C300 II here. I purchased a C-D NanoFlash for our FS700 back when the FS700 came out. Tested it, it worked fine, but didn't really look better than the internal recording, so never used it. Which reminds me, I need to sell it (they appear to hold their value reasonably well considering how old it is. Ours is basically unused). I've seen too many issues reported with the O7Qx to recommend it (sounds like Mitch and Dan are doing a great job though). I was quite surprised to find out the C300 II can't output de-Bayered 4K...

 

[DLD]

... You know the UrsaMini 4.6K outputs 4K via SDI (was it RGB??)- and of course records Prores internally. Maybe with the next generation BM will get it right and producers will be comfortable going BM. Until then- external recorders- which I agree, are additional errors waiting to happen.

The Mini 4.6 has just started to ship in reasonable numbers (ya, I know, it's only two years after the NAB'15 announcement). The reviews of this batch seem to be quite good but this market niche has gone to FS-7/II and C300MKII, which are now $2,000 apart in price.

For interested parties - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TieE6UttZYM

 

[puredrifting]

The Mini 4.6 has just started to ship in reasonable numbers (ya, I know, it's only two years after the NAB'15 announcement). The reviews of this batch seem to be quite good but this market niche has gone to FS-7/II and C300MKII, which are now $2,000 apart in price.

For interested parties - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TieE6UttZYM

I don't have a single client who would ever take a chance on shooting a professional job with money, client time, talent time with a BMD camera. Several of them know of it and they definitely specify "RED, Arri, Canon or Panasonic" A few of them would let us shoot with Sonys but only the F5 or F55. My best client hated the GH4 footage and we have rented the FS7 and they didn't like the look either, they would be happy if I just bought the C300 MKII. But their business is bumpy now so we are holding off to see what happens in seven weeks at NAB before we commit to anything probably.

 

[anatusa]

I don't have a single client who would ever take a chance on shooting a professional job with money, client time, talent time with a BMD camera. Several of them know of it and they definitely specify "RED, Arri, Canon or Panasonic" A few of them would let us shoot with Sonys but only the F5 or F55. My best client hated the GH4 footage and we have rented the FS7 and they didn't like the look either, they would be happy if I just bought the C300 MKII. But their business is bumpy now so we are holding off to see what happens in seven weeks at NAB before we commit to anything probably.

i was going to buy F55 a year ago(mostly because of global, slow motion, 2k crop), but as its turned out there is an absolutely hate with in locals to "sony look"..... its like a no no.... i was very surprised.
some tv series use BM on set, but very very low demand, same for pany

 

[Run&Gun]

i was going to buy F55 a year ago(mostly because of global, slow motion, 2k crop), but as its turned out there is an absolutely hate with in locals to "sony look"..... its like a no no.... i was very surprised.
some tv series use BM on set, but very very low demand, same for pany

It all just depends on YOUR market and YOUR client base. My market and my clients: I regularly shoot with my Panasonic VariCam, my Canon C300 and my Sony F55. So far this month: last week was C300 on Monday and P2 VariCam on Tuesday and Wednesday. This week I'm shooting 4K RAW on my F55 for three days.

 

[DLD]

There's a mix of snobbishness, legitimate fear, old habits, peer pressure, etc. "Shot on ARRI", "Shot on Red" have a cache to it and, until someone completes a high respect earning project on a BMD model, it's going to remain a "student" niche.

PS. I am amazed that BMD hasn't made some sort of a stupid short a la "Trick Shot" that Canon has been making for years. They have basically been selling their gear on price alone.