F65 Getting Cheaper

[starcentral]

would it be possible to shoot on F65, 4K RAW -> 2K Prores HQ with CD Odyssey, like FS700 option?
[h=1].[/h]

You can not get access to the RAW signal from the F65 or F55 camera. You would require the SR-R4 (for the F65) or the AXS-R5 (for the F55) to record RAW from these cameras. Neither the AXS-R5 or the SR-R4 has additional outputs for signal use. (Note the SR-R4 in addition to RAW lets you record HD SR Codec 422 or RGB 444. The F55 can record HD SR Codec 422 or RGB 444 internally in the camera body.)

The most you can get on the F55 would be 4K uncompressed over HD-SDI using the four SDI outputs, but limited to 10-bit 422 YCbCr. (Dan from Convergent Design confirmed this to me some time ago I'm not making it up)

On the F65 there are only two SDI outputs and they are both monitor outputs HD-SDI 422. (probably 10-bit)


Over on the Sony forums people are fumed that the FS700 can stream a RAW signal to the 7Q yet the F5 owners have no option for 4K to a 3rd party - simply because there is not way to get 4K out on an F5. As many of you know the FS700 uses a single SDI port to stream 12-bit bayer pattern sensor data and was designed to go to the intermediate device the HXR-IFR5 ($2200) and then the AXS-R5 ($3200) making for a very costly solution. When Sony allowed the 7Q to read the signal from the FS700 it made FS700 owners very happy but was somewhat a can of worms for the higher end CineAlta line of cameras.

 

[SJX]

This is interesting, klk! Do you have any samples we could see?

I would like to second that request. Because I have never seen anything from a FS700 that didn't look like video. Even the F3 with s-log looks better and I still think the F3 s-log is video-ish. Just wide dynamic range video. So it would be great to see some examples of what you are talking about.

 

[starcentral]

I don't know how everyone feels about this, but I was fuming. I felt cheated and robbed. The information, even with cheap prosumer cameras, was always there- it just had to be processed and released into the wild. One must take control of the image, especially in the debayer stage. It's not really about the cameras, it's about the processing power of computers because the workflow is a ***** and extensive- but the gains are enormous.

100% agree.

Up a few posts I explain why to really compete with the look and beauty of the F35 (a unique anomaly we may NEVER see again except from ARRI) for all other cameras "beauty" can only come out in the grading process (or color science applied in post but that is "grading" essentially), mainly shooting in RAW so you have a FAT image to work with. slog (still just a hyper gamma curve) is not enough in my opinion.

How many of you have heard about the prosumer camera hack "Andromeda" by Juan Pertierra who successfully hacked the DVX100 in 2003 allowing 14-bit uncompressed images off the sensor to be recorded directly to external recording devices? Check out the Andromeda vimeo channel and see what you think of some of those videos. At a time when RED camera's were emerging and still deemed "expensive" by some, Juan's hack was a highly sought out alternative solution to shooting with RED cameras. In fact there are still remnants of discussions about it on the REDuser forums. Juan's company "Reel-Stream" even had a booth at NAB 2007.

Later on, RED eager to protect it's market bought Juan's company and the modification service was never heard from again. People expressed their utter disappointment about it here on DVX and other places on the Internet. The full story on DVX is here: Record uncompressed 14-bit (4:4:4) on your HVX200

Quite amazing what can happen when companies want to buy or protect IP. I still think for the F35 there must have been something between Sony and Panasonic in terms of a license that expired and perhaps Sony didn't want to renew or pay to use again. Maybe that's why the F35 is such a "one off".

 

[yoclay]

Using ACR we can easily and quickly manipulate this information.

Forgive me, but I have never been able to use ACR without getting issues in the output. I agree that it is far better than Resolve, but if I manipulate the sliders in the way you are suggesting, apparently the automated aspect of the module kicks in causing myself and others numerous problems. So just how do you do use it without getting these well documented issues?

 

[leteeci]

Thank you all for explanations on F65 !!!

@klk .. What is your workflow with ACR ??

I am using now BMPCC raw..and as farr as I try.. I need lot more time to transcode via AE ( and ACR ).. then with Resolve..

I would be more than interested to sqeeze more from BMPCC raw !!!

.

 

[eddavid]

I think the biggest thing for me is that I love the look of Kodak 5219 film and Fujifilm - most film stocks - well to me - for instance the movie Spring Breakers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv9_dn1U5NQ - that look - the color, the skin tones, how it reacts to light, the motion - that to me looks super amazing. So damn good. That's the best to me. Not any digital camera matches these five factors. I'm not the biggest fan of the Arri Alexa even - even though Dallas Buyers Club was one of the best shot films I've seen on the Alexa. The Red Epic - well there's been a lot of films shot on this that I don't like the look of, but Elysium I loved that look - it was spectular to me. And with the Sony F35, well the Panavision Genesis - the movie that sold me on this camera was Zombieland. I absolutely love the look of this film. And for the F65, I haven't found a film yet that I totally love - well Oblivion actually looked incredible as did the Evil Dead.

But I think right now the F35 combined with the right lut can give an absolutely pleasing and beautiful picture - the motion out of it is so natural. How it handles light and overexposure is so lovely. But anyway, I would probably be interested in the F65 once it drops down to 10kish - and it will. That's the way our sad industry is right now.

The F35 is a beast, but its my beast. And now just with an Odyssey 7q as a recorder and a monitor its not that heavy - it's around 11lbs. Heavy, but its fine - its not the end of the world. This combination is pretty wonderful.

 

[klk]

When we bring dng files into After Effects ACR automatically kicks in. We make some adjustments then bring the clip into the timeline. From there we go to Media Encoder to output the AE composition. We use manual settings, not auto, and some clips do require going back and making adjustments as the initial frame is often not the ideal frame.

it takes a lot of time and processing.
Problem clips will likely require a different workflow.

This workflow is also new to me so I don't know all the pitfalls yet.

High ISO situations are still problematic- not ideal.

We are also shooting with anamorphics, so they impart a cinematic feel and also introduce other issues.

Right now everything I've shot is under NDAs so will have to wait for the trailer to show any footage.

When I get back to New York I'll do a bunch of test to verify what I've been seeing and do a little back to back comparison.

An F65 with recorder for $10K? That would be interesting...

 

[Viddovation]

I just bought an FS700 as a high speed option for the feature (can shoot up to 240 fps in 2k raw, but we only go to 120 fps) I am currently shooting. After testing we settled on a workflow that completely abandons Resolve as a transcode/ 1st lite engine.

My experience is that there is an enormous amount of information in the RAW signal that is tossed away by recording to Prores or by processing the dng files via Resolve. I am referring to both dynamic range and color- skin tone. Using ACR we can easily and quickly manipulate this information. What this means is I've been able to shoot actors in the Caribbean sun without control or fill and have a totally usable image by controlling the highlights and bringing up the shadows WITH GOOD PLEASING COLOR. Usually I will of course add fill but we've had a few remote breakway shots and when the actress was backlit by the sun it looked like her face was keyed by a couple of 12 or 18K hmi's shooting through silk or bleached muslin. The first time you see this you're stunned, but the next- well, that just how we roll now.

Personally I've not experienced this before, even when shooting with Alexas. This is a low budget action oriented movie (don't know the budget but best guess is @ 1 million) but using these inexpensive cameras shooting raw I'm getting the best, deepest, richest most nuanced skintones ever. And we're getting it with a 30-60 second adjustment via ACR. The best color comes from a 5DMk2 shooting raw with Magic Lantern. The color on human skintone blows away the Dragon (with current color science) and bests the Alexa (without a top notch colorist).

I'm a little confused on whether your pronouns are jumping between cameras, but specifically you say:

"The best color comes from a 5DMk2 shooting raw with Magic Lantern."

Can you clarify that? Do you mean the 5DMk3?

And are you saying it's better than the FS700? Better than the F35? Better than the Alexa?

 

[klk]

Forgive me, but I have never been able to use ACR without getting issues in the output. I agree that it is far better than Resolve, but if I manipulate the sliders in the way you are suggesting, apparently the automated aspect of the module kicks in causing myself and others numerous problems. So just how do you do use it without getting these well documented issues?

What type of problems are you having? The only thing I noticed is if we use "auto" color correction there can be a hue shift if a prominent color enters frame during the take. Be keeping the settings on "manual" we don't get the color shift. I'm not a DIT/post specialist and this workflow is entirely new to me so I don't know the pitfalls- just what we see when the DIT processes the footage.

Also most of my enthusiasm is towards daylight exteriors- as they were my biggest concern when production went from an Alexa shoot to a Red shoot for lack of availability with local vendors. The director and I had no interest shooting on Red Epics in this sun so we went with a different solution. The FS700 can veer towards harshness when pushed in one direction or another, so exposure is still very important. I do rely on the waveform monitor on the 7Q.

 

[klk]

The best skin tones I've seen have come from a ML hacked 5DMk2, not 5DMk3. However we did not do a side by side comparison of these two DSLR cameras. The director is not crazy about skin tones on the 5dmk3. Yes, that includes Alexa and movies I've seen shot with the F35.

I don't own a Canon DSLR. The director is in love with the image out of his ML hacked 5dmk2, and to be honest I completely blew him off until I saw this from Colby Moore on vimeo: https://vimeo.com/82522288

According to Colby's comments he used ACR via AFter Effects with a final grade in Resolve. That short helped me buy into the directors rantings about the 5dMk2 and ACR, enough to at least test it.

I have only done side by sides with the ML hacked 5Dmk2, FS700 raw, Canon C500 raw, C500 12 bit RGB and Canon 7D ML Raw, all in preproduction with this film. The director and I are both very familiar with Red Epics, and have little interest in those cameras and their color science. That can of course change as everything changes.

The image out of the FS700 shooting raw and processed via ACR and AE have also been completely unexpected in a good way. Again I believe to secret to be processing RAW data via ACR. I could be wrong but that's my gut feeling. I am not referring to final color grade, just processing RAW footage.

With the ML hacked 5dmk2 and to a lesser extent the FS700 I have seen natural skintones with nuance that I have not seen with digital cinema cameras. The 5Dmk2 is better. The FF sensor size is better if you like the optical qualities of longer focal lengths.

The 5Dmk2 is a ***** to work with and I would not approach another project with DSLRs unless we had a number of them all rigged out with proper cages and accessories.

The only thing I can say is test a hacked 5Dmk2 and run it through ACR in AE. For narrative work and skin tone. It's not very good with action and fast/ rapid movement. Then the FS700 takes over. I do prefer the image out of the FS700 over the F55- I did shoot with the F55 for over a month last fall.

When I get back to New York I want to run a bunch of tests, including comparing a 5dMk2 with a 5DMk3, ML hacked. I also want to put the FS700 raw against other cameras side by side. Ed, if you're interested let me know.

 

[klk]

BTW more and more I think it's a matter of finding the right tools and workflow to get the best images out of any camera. Again I suspect the processing is as important as the camera now- so throw in time and cost into the matrix to find workable solutions. Many cameras can be great with the right combination- which may be off the well beaten path- or might be the mainstream path- one doesn't know until one tries.

As far as cameras making money- it has been hard to beat the Alexa- but that's another subject entirely.

 

[maranfilms]

I would be extremely careful moving forward with a ML hacked 5d2 due to the horrible moire, its bad enough unhacked but raw produces the worst moire I've seen from any camera I can remember. maybe that filter can help it, not sure, also the motion looks weird to me, unless they fixed it. very choppy.

 

[yoclay]

What type of problems are you having? The only thing I noticed is if we use "auto" color correction there can be a hue shift if a prominent color enters frame during the take. Be keeping the settings on "manual" we don't get the color shift. I'm not a DIT/post specialist and this workflow is entirely new to me so I don't know the pitfalls- just what we see when the DIT processes the footage.

Also most of my enthusiasm is towards daylight exteriors- as they were my biggest concern when production went from an Alexa shoot to a Red shoot for lack of availability with local vendors. The director and I had no interest shooting on Red Epics in this sun so we went with a different solution. The FS700 can veer towards harshness when pushed in one direction or another, so exposure is still very important. I do rely on the waveform monitor on the 7Q.

There is a very common issue with flickering caused by the fact that ACR is analyzingn and autobalancing every image whether you like it or not. This cannot be turned off. Which means that everything is ok if a shot is very consistent and does not change drastically in content, but if you suddenly have a large mass fill the frame or are panning content for instance you will have issues. Pushing those highlight and shadow sliders around is definitely encouraging these issues and most people have given up on ACR, not because they don't think it's great for manipulating an image, but because it is unworkeable for the issue described if you use anything other than the basic exposure slider.


http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1285520

Here is an example (there are many):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyNrTugr6EE

 

[cpc]

The best skin tones I've seen have come from a ML hacked 5DMk2, not 5DMk3. However we did not do a side by side comparison of these two DSLR cameras. The director is not crazy about skin tones on the 5dmk3.

Unless you've taken special care to inject the correct color space matrix metadata in both camera's dng output, this most likely comes down exactly that: incorrect DNG metadata. Correctly handled 5dm3 raw has pretty good skin tones.

 

[SJX]

I'm sorry klk, but I will stick with what my eyes have seen. I have never seen any footage from a FS700 which didn't look video-ish. Maybe you are the only one on earth who has figured out how to get images out of it that beats the F35, F65 and Alexa. But I will only believe when I see examples.

Also when you say the 5D ML RAW beats any other camera I have to start questioning your sanity. RAW does not make any miracles. The 5D is still a stills camera, not made for video, with line skipping, which produces an image full of moire, aliasing and other artifacts. It is still a DSLR image and looks like that too. Not to mention the ML RAW workflow is a pain.

All together I just don't believe you can pull miracles in post. I don't think any amount of post work will change the characteristics of a sensor. I remember the Andromeda and it still looked like video. Just flat video. Until I see any footage from a FS700, F3, F5, F55 which doesn't look video-ish, like a soap, thin or whatever name you want to use, I wont believe that the problem is how people are handling the images instead of the camera. I think it's the sensor and how the camera process images. You can change some things. But not really everything.

 

[klk]

There is a very common issue with flickering caused by the fact that ACR is analyzingn and autobalancing every image whether you like it or not. This cannot be turned off. Which means that everything is ok if a shot is very consistent and does not change drastically in content, but if you suddenly have a large mass fill the frame or are panning content for instance you will have issues. Pushing those highlight and shadow sliders around is definitely encouraging these issues and most people have given up on ACR, not because they don't think it's great for manipulating an image, but because it is unworkeable for the issue described if you use anything other than the basic exposure slider.


http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1285520

Here is an example (there are many):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyNrTugr6EE

Thanks for the link. I initially tested with AE 5.5 and we have been using Adobe CC. We are processing footage daily and have not had a flicker problem yet- now in day 16 of this feature. When we do run across problems with this workflow those clips will need to be handled a different way. But so far we have been lucky.

Come to think of it, on one test we did see a flicker and now I've forgotten what we did about it- seems so long ago. As this is a feature the exposure tends to be very consistent within each shot.

 

[SJX]

I think the biggest thing for me is that I love the look of Kodak 5219 film and Fujifilm - most film stocks - well to me - for instance the movie Spring Breakers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv9_dn1U5NQ - that look - the color, the skin tones, how it reacts to light, the motion - that to me looks super amazing. So damn good. That's the best to me. Not any digital camera matches these five factors. I'm not the biggest fan of the Arri Alexa even - even though Dallas Buyers Club was one of the best shot films I've seen on the Alexa. The Red Epic - well there's been a lot of films shot on this that I don't like the look of, but Elysium I loved that look - it was spectular to me. And with the Sony F35, well the Panavision Genesis - the movie that sold me on this camera was Zombieland. I absolutely love the look of this film. And for the F65, I haven't found a film yet that I totally love - well Oblivion actually looked incredible as did the Evil Dead.

But I think right now the F35 combined with the right lut can give an absolutely pleasing and beautiful picture - the motion out of it is so natural. How it handles light and overexposure is so lovely. But anyway, I would probably be interested in the F65 once it drops down to 10kish - and it will. That's the way our sad industry is right now.

The F35 is a beast, but its my beast. And now just with an Odyssey 7q as a recorder and a monitor its not that heavy - it's around 11lbs. Heavy, but its fine - its not the end of the world. This combination is pretty wonderful.

Ed, we are kind of on the same page.

I would go as far as saying that if somebody would come right now and offer me either a free F55 or free F35 I would take the F35 without even thinking. With the F65 I would kindly ask if I could have a day with both before making the decision. rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

 

[SJX]

That is quite possibly one of the dumbest, most inane trailers I have seen in a long time, unless of course they said "awesome" every thirty seconds in the Wild West of 1882.

Also, whoever is the colorist (or the [roducer) should be hogwhipped for how red the skin colors are and how oversaturated the images generally have been made. The same could be said for the clip before it. To me this is all about crappy decision making in post and poor lighting, not the camera.

Yes grading played a big role. But look at all those hot blue skies, blown white clouds and blown highlights on dresses and white shirts. I'm sure creative decision played a role for the look, but most likely not for the whole feel. I think the camera played a big role too. I'm sure it would have looked better on the F35 or Alexa.

About Trophy Wife I wont even comment as that IS a soap.

 

[klk]

Unless you've taken special care to inject the correct color space matrix metadata in both camera's dng output, this most likely comes down exactly that: incorrect DNG metadata. Correctly handled 5dm3 raw has pretty good skin tones.

My experience with ML is with this feature. The director had to really cajole me into testing his 5DMk2- he has also been insisting he has not seen skin tones with the 5DMk3 to his liking. We don't have a 5dMk3 here so I haven't tested it- I do say we have to do side by sides before blanket statements can be made about what is better. Will do those when we get back

I work as a dp- the workflow is not the biggest concern for me- my experience is RAW gives us so much more information regardless of what camera one uses. The full frame canon's are limited to drama, not action and fast movement of course.

 

[yachacha]

I found 2 F65's at Sony's booth at NAB this year. One was on display like a museum relic, the other had been turned into a 4k broadcast giant. Maybe the sports systems using it as an 8k zoomable image will maintain the value of the f65. 8k raw!