F65 Getting Cheaper

starcentral said:
If you use the R1 recorder deck you can record in 10-bit 444 and with an option record it in 12-bit. You can record in RGB as per Sony's SR codec, not RAW, but I did read that DNX uncompressed is an option. Also the R1 is limited to High Definition only. So assumingly with the R1 you would be forced to use one of the camera's built-in gammas which will get baked into the image format and along with the "Sony look". Perhaps slog3 gives some promise of reversing that out especially if using ACES workflow but you'd definitely want 12-bit not 10-bit to yield even more data in your highlights region.

At double the cost of an R1 step into the SR-R4 recorder and now you can do 4K double-bayer RAW in 16-bit (Q67 sensor data basically). The memory cards for the R4 are rated at 5.5gbps to give some idea of what's going on under the hood. $6000 for a 1TB card by the way. The R4 can also record in 2K RAW.

Here's Sony's literature on the R1, R4 and the F65: link
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The way you've phrased things may mislead the uninformed. I'm not sure if you mean to suggest using thr SR-R1 with the F65 as an alternative to the SR-R4. If so, I would highly advise against it, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the SR-R4 does offer 1080p record modes in the same codecs as the SR-R1, best as I can tell. Second, the SR-R4 natively docks and communicates with the F65. The SR-R1 has no such dock, and can only be fed via HD-SDI. Third, these relatively cheap F65's being sold off seem to include an SR-R4, so any retail pricing savings wouldn't be realized. Lastly, recording 4k on the F65 does not require the expensive 5.5GB cards, unless one is doing High Frame Rate. Recording 23.98 in 4k is possible on the somewhat cheaper 2.5GB cards. And the SR-R4 will accept the 1.5GB card for HD recording, should that be your preference.
 
Viddovation said:
The way you've phrased things may mislead the uninformed. I'm not sure if you mean to suggest using thr SR-R1 with the F65 as an alternative to the SR-R4. If so, I would highly advise against it, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the SR-R4 does offer 1080p record modes in the same codecs as the SR-R1, best as I can tell. Second, the SR-R4 natively docks and communicates with the F65. The SR-R1 has no such dock, and can only be fed via HD-SDI. Third, these relatively cheap F65's being sold off seem to include an SR-R4, so any retail pricing savings wouldn't be realized. Lastly, recording 4k on the F65 does not require the expensive 5.5GB cards, unless one is doing High Frame Rate. Recording 23.98 in 4k is possible on the somewhat cheaper 2.5GB cards. And the SR-R4 will accept the 1.5GB card for HD recording, should that be your preference.
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Definitely not my intention to misinform anyone, but as always, its good to discuss and clarify when and where possible.

I had a sneak peak at the F65 before it was available for sale and at that time Sony was boasting use of the F65 with the R1 recorder and even upgrading it with a 12-bit option for higher quality recording of files. Since it seems to only do HD I think this would be a waste of the F65. You might as well go for the F55 and guarantee yourself some type of resellability down the road.

Looking at specs and manual for SR-R4 it looks as if it only does RAW for the F65. No other codecs. R4 operating manual

True you might not be using the full 5.0gbps cards for recording unless in HFR, but trust me you will want that speed for offloading footage. 1TB is a ton of data. This is the reason Sony continues to create higher speed cards even for SXS series. Cards get larger and off-load speeds need to get faster too.

All around, as and independent I would avoid the F65 like the plaque.
 
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starcentral said:
Definitely not my intention to misinform anyone, but as always, its good to discuss and clarify when and where possible.

I had a sneak peak at the F65 before it was available for sale and at that time Sony was boasting use of the F65 with the R1 recorder and even upgrading it with a 12-bit option for higher quality recording of files. Since it seems to only do HD I think this would be a waste of the F65. You might as well go for the F55 and guarantee yourself some type of resellability down the road.

Looking at specs and manual for SR-R4 it looks as if it only does RAW for the F65. No other codecs. R4 operating manual

True you might not be using the full 5.0gbps cards for recording unless in HFR, but trust me you will want that speed for offloading footage. 1TB is a ton of data. This is the reason Sony continues to create higher speed cards even for SXS series. Cards get larger and off-load speeds need to get faster too.

All around, as and independent I would avoid the F65 like the plaque.
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Absolutely. And I think your ultimate opinion that the F65 is too much of a hassle for small productions and owner/operators is spot on.

To the point about codecs - the manual you link to is the first edition, without revision - the manual as the camera and recorder originally shipped.

I'm not sure if this is the *most* recent, but here's a link for the 1st Edition, 4th revision manual: http://www.s-pro.tv/upload/iblock/SR-R4.pdf

If you review page 74 you'll see a chart that lists available recording modes for 1080p 422 and 1080p 444, with and without Select FPS. In short - the current firmware for the F65 and SR-R4 supports HD recording modes identical to the SR-R1.
 
Does the f65 output 4k video with the latest firmware updates?
If so it could be interesting coupled with an aja quad...
 
F65 only has 2 SDI ports as far as I know. If it had 4 of them, it'd be 10-bit in RGB max, and unlike the F35 which gets its look in-camera my opinion is you would not fancy the image straight out of the F5/55/65 unless its 16-bit RAW where you can apply your transforms in post and then transcode to lighter codec like Prores, etc..

Of course this is only large speculation on my part, mostly from grading around images and comparing what you get across F3, F35, F55 cameras when only 8 or 10-bit. Play RAW and you see the power behind it, too bad about the disk space though. :S
 
Nuri Ceylan did "Once Upon A Time in Anatolia," as well, shot on the F35. Fun to see the same shooting and lighting styles in a new movie from him. Oh, the F65 did OK too. :)
 
macgregor said:
Does the f65 output 4k video with the latest firmware updates?
If so it could be interesting coupled with an aja quad...
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Did you solve the problems you were having with the Quad and the F35? Is that what you recommend for 12bit 444? It seems the 7Q is taking forever to implement it.
 
Ki Pro Quad won't do 12 bit 444, only 10-bit 444. Pix is still the only ssd to record 12 bit out of the F35.
 
yachacha said:
Ki Pro Quad won't do 12 bit 444, only 10-bit 444. Pix is still the only ssd to record 12 bit out of the F35.
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Absolutely not true. The Sony SR-R1 also records the Sony F35's 12bit RGB 444 to solid state media. It also does so over dual link, without the need for an in-line SDI multiplexer.
 
starcentral said:
You will never get 12-bit from SDI so it won't really matter.
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Exactly what do you mean? SMPTE 372M defines and supports RGB 444 12 bit over dual link and 3G HD-SDI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_digital_interface
For very high-definition applications, requiring greater resolution, frame rate, or color fidelity than the HD-SDI interface can provide, the SMPTE 372M standard defines the dual link interface. As the name suggests, this interface consists of two SMPTE 292M interconnects operating in parallel. In particular, the dual link interface supports 10-bit, 4:2:2, 1080P formats at frame rates of 60 Hz, 59.94 Hz, and 50 Hz, as well as 12-bit color depth, RGB encoding, and 4:4:4 colour sampling.
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Transmission of true 12 bit color depth over SDI is possible, and while viewers will only ever see the finished product in 8bit or 10bit formats, the extra depth of 12bit acquisition can make a difference in color grading and VFX, particularly on projects with intensive post production requirements.

I really don't understand your assertion.
 
starcentral said:
Ok learn something new, I didn't know 12-bit over SDI was possible.

My mistake, my mistake.
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We have been discussing this now here for months and months that you need dual link or a multiplexer for 12 bit 444 and you hang out here constantly. Wonder how you could have missed it.
 
starcentral said:
This is quite impressive, F55 vs Alexa in skin tones.

I'd still take the F55 over the F65.

http://vimeo.com/96696423
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Very interesting video for many reasons. First doesn't really say or prove much. This is studio lighting controlled to death. Flaaat! Even an iphone would look great under this conditions and I don't see exceptional skins tones from neither camera.

The other interesting thing is that this is official Sony video. I think Sony has crossed a line here or at least done something I never seen them doing before. They made a video comparing their camera to a competitor's. Is desperation growing? Maybe they are getting frustrated Arri is kicking their butts. The Amira is sure to be a bigger hit than the Alexa because of the price and it eats right in F55 market. But even if the F55 looked better than the Alexa and it doesn't, or if it looked better in this one situation there is just no comparison. The F55 feels like a toy if you hold both side by side. Main reason Alexa is taken so serious.


starcentral said:
I'd still take the F55 over the F65.
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Nope. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

But Dennis, sorry if this offends you or something. Not my intention. But you sound like somebody looking for confirmation about your camera. Many of your posts looks so. Like you looking for comfort or confirmation you bought the right camera or something. Don't know just saying and no offense meant.

F65 vs F55 is matter of opinion but even Sony puts the F65 above the F55. It has better specifications on paper and real world image is way better.

Let it go. :tongue:

Peace!
 
Yes its a bit of an interesting comparison video done by Sony I agree. The lighting offers some good highlight renditions and gradations in various parts of the image. I still think it's pretty good. I don't think an iphone would have looked the same but perhaps someone can try.

As for your comment about my F55, you couldn't be more wrong.
 
Hi guys just throwing in my two cents.

This is a film shot on the F65 that looked very filmic, I had to go on their website and look at behind the scenes photos to see if they were shooting film on there.

A great film too which is a bonus.

https://vimeo.com/83807418

It almost seems like overkill to film with a camera that is so good only to degrade the image so heavily. If only I had a developing lab in my backyard with a black magic film scanner I'd shoot everything on film.

IMG_8538-700x466.jpgIMG_9867-700x466.jpg
 
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