Ex1 24p

ccf

ccf

Member
Okay, so- I've been using the Ex1 for about 6 months now, in combination with a brevis 35 MP1. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a great camera. The image quality and overall clarity is outstanding, but there's one thing that's been bugging me...the 24p. Does anyone else feel it doesn't look like film (or the HVX even for the matter)? I think it's most noticeable when panning still subjects, say landscapes...it appears to take on a 30p look. Maybe I'm just going insane, but can anyone else back me up on this?

I know someone will, so please don't give me the "you need to take at least blah blah seconds to do a 180 degree pan". Panning with the DVX or HVX didn't strobe this much in my opinion. Alright, rant over. Sorry, I'm sure this has been debated before.
 
I shoot various rates, bare lens, and 24p is my least favorite. I do see judder at 24p, but I've never seen how an HVX or another camera pans at 24p so I can't compare. I just know it's not my preference because of it. 30p and 60i do very well for me. The 24p does fine for me when I'm just shooting normal without any kind of panning... I was even chasing my 2 year old around last night in the backyard shooting 24p (with the Sony .8x adapter) and it looked fine because the attention was on him. But just a straight left-right pan over a landscape, I'm with you on how it looks.
 
ccf said:
I think it's most noticeable when panning still subjects, say landscapes...it appears to take on a 30p look.

Panning with the DVX or HVX didn't strobe this much in my opinion. Alright, rant over. Sorry, I'm sure this has been debated before.
Click to expand...

If it looked like 30P, there would be less judder than 24P due the the faster frame rate, right?

Without taking an HVX or another camera side by side shooting and panning at the exact same speed, it's hard to be objective.

Unless the Sony is not really at 24 FPS using a typical 1/48 shutter, I imagine would be an issue.. But, based on loading footage into your NLE and viewing each frame, it's no doubt 24FPS.

Now, if your talking real fast pans, it's possible that the CMOS shutter will have skew issues which may cause questions.
 
Last edited:
:bath:Ever seen "Gone with the Wind" opening, where Superman (reeves) was pushing Scarlet O'hare on a swing? Talk about "Judder!" 24FPS was not invented for motion, is was adoped for conservaton of film length to bring down the number of reals in the theatre, (and also to save money of celluloid.) At a slower speed, (less that 24fps,) the viewer would be able to see the shutter strobing. Some people, with a ultra fast nervious system can see this effect. Micky Mantle, for example, had this problem. As a result; his eyes could adjust the bat quicker to make contact with the ball giving him the leading batting average of all time. 30fps, as on broadcast tv, is high enough that the eye can pick up motion better, specialy when it crosses the screen. When this happens with 24fps, the eye percieves the slower frame rate and it is visually noticed by the average viewer. 24p in video like 24fps on film would have the same caractoristics. The only thing that is different is the type and length of the shutter closure on 24p video to my understanding. Closure timing for film is pretty well set. Correct me if I am wrong!
 
Last edited:
I may be going out on a limb here, but if the judder seems more noticeable on the EX1 than on the HVX, it may be because the EX1 has more detail in the picture--sharper edges may call attention to judder more than soft edges or no edge features. Try panning across a sky full of clouds, then try panning across a picket fence. See what I mean?

That said, I shot six hours at an entire air show Sunday in 24p and it all looks like a movie. I have no complaints at all.
 
What your play back is on can have a huge effect too. Computer monitors are not the best devices timing wise for video motion. Also, if your using SP mode, that's HDV emulation and is actually recorded interlaced with a pulldown. If your play back device doesn't understand that, it will look jerky.
 
I think the 24p is more like film in the jutter sense than the HVX, I have been very pleased with the 24p most of all. But thats just me, now Wayne, get me my damn achro now!


Jon
 
A test, similiar to the 16mm on top a HVX (or was that a DVX) camera in 24p mode. Or just an HVX strapped on top a EX1. Maybe I can get my local rental house to help with this shoot out...
 
adamr316 said:
A test, similiar to the 16mm on top a HVX (or was that a DVX) camera in 24p mode. Or just an HVX strapped on top a EX1. Maybe I can get my local rental house to help with this shoot out...
Click to expand...

I think you'll find that motion looks identical on both cameras.

This has been a long standing discussion, but no one can produce side-by-side footage that shows any evidence of differences among cameras, when frame rate and shutter are the same.

Juddery 24p footage is usually the result of viewing on a computer monitor which refreshes at 60Hz, which adds a harsh frame doubling every four frames. When you view the same footage on a 48hz broadcast monitor the judder is not there.

There are other reasons for the appearance of judder in 24p, but I'm too tired of this topic to get into them here. The other forum has pages and pages of discussion on this and also some side by side tests.
 
Carl Marxx said:
:bath:Ever seen "Gone with the Wind" opening, where Superman (reeves) was pushing Scarlet O'hare on a swing? Talk about "Judder!" 24FPS was not invented for motion, is was adoped for conservaton of film length to bring down the number of reals in the theatre, (and also to save money of celluloid.) At a slower speed, (less that 24fps,) the viewer would be able to see the shutter strobing. Some people, with a ultra fast nervious system can see this effect. Micky Mantle, for example, had this problem. As a result; his eyes could adjust the bat quicker to make contact with the ball giving him the leading batting average of all time. 30fps, as on broadcast tv, is high enough that the eye can pick up motion better, specialy when it crosses the screen. When this happens with 24fps, the eye percieves the slower frame rate and it is visually noticed by the average viewer. 24p in video like 24fps on film would have the same caractoristics. The only thing that is different is the type and length of the shutter closure on 24p video to my understanding. Closure timing for film is pretty well set. Correct me if I am wrong!
Click to expand...

24fps was not adopted for conservation of film. It was actually a speed increase over silents (which were 16fps) and was adopted to improve the fidelity of the soundtrack running on the edge of the film.
 
In practice, the DVDs I create from 24p footage display far less judder on the big screen than the original footage did on the workstation monitor. It is a non-issue in my book.
 
basspig said:
In practice, the DVDs I create from 24p footage display far less judder on the big screen than the original footage did on the workstation monitor. It is a non-issue in my book.
Click to expand...

Because they are being displayed with a field-based 3-2 pulldown or no pulldown at all, depending on what you are viewing them on.

As I said above, most judder complaints come from viewing 24p footage on a 60Hz LCD computer monitor.
 
I don't have my ex1 or Ex3 yet, but I do plan to get one. Right now I just have a V1U, but it's CMOS and has the same problems as the EX1/3.

On pans and other things that you think it's a little juttery, why don't you just run a plug-in over the footage in post like ReelFX motion Blur. I did that over my whole movie, because the V1U claims 24p but gives you something close, but not quite right. I just had the computer to "blur between high moving frames" using Motion Blur and it smoothed everything out, without fail.

That's my suggestion. The Ex1/3 is such a good camera, that a small juttery pan is a small problem especially when a 10 second pan can be fixed in 60 seconds in post. And remember even the RED has the CMOS problem.

There is no perfect camera- I've learned you must learn your camera's strengths and weaknesses and plan your shoot and post accordingly.
 
jls4 said:
I don't have my ex1 or Ex3 yet, but I do plan to get one. Right now I just have a V1U, but it's CMOS and has the same problems as the EX1/3.

On pans and other things that you think it's a little juttery, why don't you just run a plug-in over the footage in post like ReelFX motion Blur. I did that over my whole movie, because the V1U claims 24p but gives you something close, but not quite right. I just had the computer to "blur between high moving frames" using Motion Blur and it smoothed everything out, without fail.

That's my suggestion. The Ex1/3 is such a good camera, that a small juttery pan is a small problem especially when a 10 second pan can be fixed in 60 seconds in post. And remember even the RED has the CMOS problem.

There is no perfect camera- I've learned you must learn your camera's strengths and weaknesses and plan your shoot and post accordingly.
Click to expand...

All this is based on the presumption that the EX1/3 has some sort of problem with motion at 24p

IT DOESN'T !!!

Side by side tests show that motion looks the same on the EX1 as on any other 24p camera. Even film!

I have been shooting, scanning, editing, compositing and scrutinizing film for more than two decades. Sure, the image looks different, but the EX1 handles motion no differently from any other 24p or film camera. If you need to do a side by side test, do it, but until then, make no assumptions about judder with the EX1.

To temporally smear footage using some sort of blur filter is no more necessary on the EX1 than any other camera. And it would be a shame to degrade such high fidelity footage in this manner in most cases.
 
Yes,
The whole motion thing is crazy...
24P FPS with 1/48 shutter speed is just that - 24P FPS with 1/48 shutter.
 
Yeah, crazy indeed. ANY progressive frame mode is just A SERIES OF STILL IMAGES. Naturally if the difference in the image position from one frame to the next is enough for the eye to detect a discreet jump of positon of objects from one frame to the next, but slow enough that the monitor's ability to switch a pixel on/off isn't exceeded, then one will see these differences as a sort of flicker or judder. This is a CAMERA-INDEPENDANT phenomena. It's just as true with film as with progressive video.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top