ahalpert
Major Contributor
Honestly, this is why I hardly resell cameras anymore. They're worth more to me as additional angles and backups than the pennies they'd fetch
EVA1: EVA1 Completely lost its value?
- Thread starter Raphael Madeira
- Start date
Honestly, this is why I hardly resell cameras anymore. They're worth more to me as additional angles and backups than the pennies they'd fetch
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I'm really insecure, so I don't buy any brands that can be mockingly misnamed, such as Black Tragic, Stigma, Shamron, and especially not the Shitcanon CH200 (ch = cripple-hammer)
And the market value of a given camera can vary due to a number of factors. For example, if someone purchased A7SII back in 2015, its value didn't diminish greatly over the next 4-5 years because Sony didn't really bother with its natural replacement. The same applies to GH-5. On the other hand, if you purchased C300 MKIII or C500 MKII, their market value took a hit pretty quickly from the release of an 8K R5.
The next few years will present an additional challenge. Surely, if you buy an 8K camera in 2021-22, it will be superseded by 10K/12K cameras in 2025 (heck, BMD already has a faux 12K camera out). So, the market values of 8K models will drop. But who exactly will have the need to shoot 12K, when 8K is beyond the human retina. The answer is that the technology will be there much like that of a car with a 700 HP engine and 200 MPH top speed. But, a 12K sensor may have the same intrinsic value as a 200 MPH car - none.
I know in my case the demand will come from producers who want to punch in by a factor of 6x to give them more size options in post. I'm already getting asked about shooting in greater than >4k so that they can have more green screen re-sizing options. The reason I'm not recording 5.7k RAW output for them already is that their editors aren't yet ready to deal with the increased data workflow... (and they still bring slow, portable hard drives to transfer their data to...)
But a lot also depends on marketing from various manufacturers. (Note that the 'hot' FX6 has a lower resolution sensor -- since all the hype currently is for FF)
Raphael Madeira
Member
Thank you for all your feedback guys.
I would gladly keep it if I had work but sadly I have none and will likely quit filmmaking.
I did start selling it almost a year ago but it made no difference.
I feel that with the current offerings between 4000€-7000€, people expect things like autofocus and fullframe or focal reduced equivalent. Autofocus in particular is gaining serious momentum thanks to Covid I believe, more and more people shoot alone now to save on costs and the more a camera does for you, the better.
Also with companies like Canon and Sony, feeling like they're releasing a new camera every year or two, doesn't help keep the value of your investments.
I've owned many cameras over the past 11 years, even two Red Cameras, I barely had any problem selling those and only had a very small loss. I guess it goes to show, regardless of how a company like Red might be viewed, their products still keep their value more efficiently than a Sony or a Canon.
Good lesson for anyone undecided between a Red Komodo and a Sony FX6 or Canon C70 too nowadays, gotta be smarter to protect your investment today folks.
Otherwise you end up like me, buying a camera for 6500€ that in my opinion had the best image and dynamic range in it's class, then 2 years and a half later, lose half of that at best.
An argument can also be made that with cameras like the Blackmagic Pocket 6K Pro, we should invest less to loose less in these times.
Lowered the price to 3990€, can only hope that will be enough.
Again, thanks again for the feedback guys, I believe this is a great example of not only Covid affecting the industry but how fragile our consumerism mentalities imposed by companies can be with such a foreign element, quickly taken to extremes.
Cheers everyone
I would gladly keep it if I had work but sadly I have none and will likely quit filmmaking.
I did start selling it almost a year ago but it made no difference.
I feel that with the current offerings between 4000€-7000€, people expect things like autofocus and fullframe or focal reduced equivalent. Autofocus in particular is gaining serious momentum thanks to Covid I believe, more and more people shoot alone now to save on costs and the more a camera does for you, the better.
Also with companies like Canon and Sony, feeling like they're releasing a new camera every year or two, doesn't help keep the value of your investments.
I've owned many cameras over the past 11 years, even two Red Cameras, I barely had any problem selling those and only had a very small loss. I guess it goes to show, regardless of how a company like Red might be viewed, their products still keep their value more efficiently than a Sony or a Canon.
Good lesson for anyone undecided between a Red Komodo and a Sony FX6 or Canon C70 too nowadays, gotta be smarter to protect your investment today folks.
Otherwise you end up like me, buying a camera for 6500€ that in my opinion had the best image and dynamic range in it's class, then 2 years and a half later, lose half of that at best.
An argument can also be made that with cameras like the Blackmagic Pocket 6K Pro, we should invest less to loose less in these times.
Lowered the price to 3990€, can only hope that will be enough.
Again, thanks again for the feedback guys, I believe this is a great example of not only Covid affecting the industry but how fragile our consumerism mentalities imposed by companies can be with such a foreign element, quickly taken to extremes.
Cheers everyone
ahalpert
Major Contributor
That's a dubious assertion. There are no c300mk3's on ebay or any other secondhand sites. The list price is still the same. Most people don't make a direct comparison between mirrorless cameras and C-series cameras because of the massive feature difference. Resolution is only 1 feature. If anything, the C70 release poses a greater threat to the future of the c300/500 because it augurs the death of EF mount cameras
There's already a used R5 available for $3100 though https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/802281582-USE/canon_4147c002_eos_r5_mirrorless_digital.html
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cyvideo
Veteran
I've never really understood why there is so much angst over the resale value of cameras. I treat them exactly the same as my vehicles. Depreciate them by way of tax write-offs as they are an item of capital expenditure. You need to invest in this camera gear to generate income, therefore, they are a 100% capital investment and can therefore be written off against income. For me value has always been based on ROI. If pay $30,000 for a camera and it earns me over $100,000 in its first year of deployment it was a purchase worth making. These days tax-wise I write of my kit to $0.00 in twelve months. So any tax I would have paid on $30K of income for that fiscal year has been fully recovered. Let's say I was up for $10K of income tax on $30K in earnings in that year. Then a $30K camera actually owes me $20K at the end of the year. If I now sell it for half its original value, $15K the camera in reality owes me $5K. $5K as an investment to turn over $100K is in my opinion a really good return on investment. Well, that's not strictly true in Aust because if you have written down an asset to $0.00 through tax claims then whatever you sell the asset for is up for Capital Gains Tax which is 48% in the $. So my $15,000 used camera sale is taxable to the tune of $7,200. Add that $7,200 to what the camera owes me, in this case, $5,000 then what the camera really owes me is $12,200. So around $1,000 a month in year one. If that $1,000 investment per month earns me $100,000 for the year I'm streets in front. In most cases, the camera will, all going well, work for me for at least three years. The camera is now totally written of tax-wise so no more tax write-offs. But if the camera earns me another $200,000 over the next two years the amortized cost of that camera nows comes down to not around $1,000 a month but closer to $330 a month over the three years. To earn $300,000 over the three years with a monthly investment of around $330 a month is money for old rope. I will gladly throw the camera away and invest in a new one. Oh dear! It got dropped! Now what was it insured for?.. Oh yes, $15,000. In my business production camera kits are tools. You buy them, you generate income with them and you depreciate them through tax write-offs. If you run a successful business they are expendables.
We all like to work with nice tools. Any craftsman does. But we need to separate our artistic and emotional, the romantic side of us away from the pure practical classical business side of what we do. Romantic? Classical? I had a light bulb moment after reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" in the 70's. It taught me to be aware of the classical and romantic sides that most of us have to tussle with every day. And it guided me in how to separate those two in making business decisions in running my business for some forty-odd years. BTW it has very little to do with either Zen or motorcycles.
Chris Young
At the time of its publication, Christopher Lehmann-Haupt, in his book review for the New York Times, wrote,
I now regret that I lack the expertise in philosophy to put Mr. Pirsig's ideas to a proper test, for this book may very well be a profoundly important one—a great one even—full of insights into our most perplexing contemporary dilemmas. I just don't know. But whatever its true philosophical worth, it is intellectual entertainment of the highest order.
Since then, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance has become the best-selling philosophy book of all time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance
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Raphael Madeira
Member
I think that's a logic that doesn't apply quite as simply to Europeans, not only is it a different type of market, the type of "businesses" run by many are also different.
I'll give you an example: I worked in France and Portugal, legally as an independent worker, not a company.
Companies even with one single individual are exceedingly expensive in taxes, social security and etc,
In that situation I couldn't get any tax returns for any of my gear, I have to pay full price, including VAT.
You can only do that as a company, not a freelancer, in France they call them "Micro-entrepreneurs".
So I think it's quite more understandable to want more resell value from our gear when in Europe, we tend to pay far more for it.
Of course, if you're a proper company, you don't have to worry about these things, the thing is, we don't make as much money in this industry as you do lets say in the USA (not sure if the situation in Australia is similar to that of the US) so creating a company becomes far more cost prohibitive.
I'll give you another example: My rates per day are 300€ as a one man crew (and many tend to consider them expensive compared to what else is available) and that includes all of my gear, which includes Cameras like the Eva, lenses, lights, gimbal, etc etc. The only thing excluded is the drone that you need to pay 100€ per day.
So now tell me, do you think my rates are anywhere near normal, compared to your experiences, for someone that did commercials for medium/bigger companies? For example, my last job was for Symington Family Estates, one of the biggest, if not the biggest conglomerate of Porto Wine companies in the world.
I think that it's hard to compare a USA/Canada kind of system to the stuff we have to deal with in Europe. Mind you, I'm assuming Australia is similar to the USA so do correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, who knows, this is my personal experience, maybe I've been doing things wrong all of my life and there's a better way to lead a business in Europe.
Cheers mate
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ahalpert
Major Contributor
That's definitely different than in the US. I'm not incorporated (just a "sole proprietor," which requires no paperwork beyond my tax returns) and I can deduct the cost of equipment in full up front (under a certain limit, which I think is over $100k, after which I think the cost would need to be depreciated annually and deducted over time)
But I do think that the greatest drag on camera resale prices is simply new cameras being offered at the same or lower launch prices as the previous models were
And also, if you're asking 300 euros, kit included, I don't think your clients are in a position to demand the latest cameras. Or even more than DSLR-cost cameras. And if they are, then the cameramen must be driving each other out of business with their gear purchases. But there's not much a person can singlehandedly do about that
But I do think that the greatest drag on camera resale prices is simply new cameras being offered at the same or lower launch prices as the previous models were
And also, if you're asking 300 euros, kit included, I don't think your clients are in a position to demand the latest cameras. Or even more than DSLR-cost cameras. And if they are, then the cameramen must be driving each other out of business with their gear purchases. But there's not much a person can singlehandedly do about that
NorBro
Major Contributor
People purchase less-expensive cameras. Nothing is worth as much as it once was. $100K cameras became $10K cameras.
Even REDs are not worth as much as they once were because there are more options for less money (and there weren't before).
As far as covid, it didn't really appear to slow purchases down (at least on forums and YouTube). And it definitely has nothing to do with auto-focus.
Companies couldn't sell R5s and a7SIIIs fast enough...and now FX6s.
If you realistically want to sell the EVA1, I'm sorry to say it might have to be around $2500-$3000 unless the stars align and the most perfect buyer comes across it.
Electrical devices generally get obsolete a lot faster than mechanical, especially in the digital era. The Japanese cartel actually tries (desperately) to retard the descend but sometimes it can't help it.
Cell phones, flat screen TV's, video projectors, Class-D amplifiers, CD players and, obviously, computers have seen even more precipitous drops.
Dubious DLD.
Cell phones, flat screen TV's, video projectors, Class-D amplifiers, CD players and, obviously, computers have seen even more precipitous drops.
Dubious DLD.
I often see used cameras for sale at 80% + the cost of a new one and I wonder who would pay anything close to that. You (the seller) know that it’s a good deal as you know the camera is in perfect working order and that you are honest and reliable. The thing is though, I don’t know these things. It makes no sense for me to gamble everything for a 20% price reduction.
And then even if it all works out, I’ve still got a camera with a couple of years of extra wear on it and no warranty.
Maybe in these cases the seller doesn’t see it this way as they have factored in the cost of extras and consumables - batteries, memory cards etc. These are pretty much valueless used though. Mainly as it’s impossible to assess how much usage they’ve had.
Selling any camera that's over 2 years old, I'd consider anything above 50% what I paid for it to be a bonus.
And then even if it all works out, I’ve still got a camera with a couple of years of extra wear on it and no warranty.
Maybe in these cases the seller doesn’t see it this way as they have factored in the cost of extras and consumables - batteries, memory cards etc. These are pretty much valueless used though. Mainly as it’s impossible to assess how much usage they’ve had.
Selling any camera that's over 2 years old, I'd consider anything above 50% what I paid for it to be a bonus.
cyvideo
Veteran
I'm absolutely confounded by your argument unless I've missed some glaring pot-holes in being a freelancer in France.
Why on earth would you then not register a Micro-entrepreneur? As in France, you have an incredibly generous "Standard Deduction for Expenses" of 50% on your gross annual earnings if you are in a service industry. Video production in France is classified as a service industry when you are registered as a Micro-entrepreneur. On top of which the Micro-entrepreneur is exempt of VAT (no invoicing, no recovery) up to €35,200 for a services activity. That's an incredibly simple way to work as a freelancer in France? That is unless your earnings escalate above €70,000 per year in a service-based business. Going on your €300 a day rate that would represent about 7-3/4 months of daily work. 233 days roughly. If you are doing that many days work or less it makes no sense NOT to be registered as a Micro-entrepreneur... does it not? Please explain if I'm way off on this assessment. I also love the "Social contributions, from 12.8% to 22%, are calculated on the turnover. So, if there are no sales in a particular period (month or quarter) then you pay no contributions for that period". That's got to help cash flow which is one of the major bug bares of small business with very variable workflows. Like our freelance industry where it can be really busy or on the other hand dead when you find yourself looking at spots on the wall.
"After registration at the RCS, the “micro-entrepreneur” will receive a SIRET number which allows him to declare his turnover to the tax authorities either monthly or quarterly.
Micro-entrepreneurs are taxed on a net profit calculated after application of a standard deduction for expenses (34% for liberal profession, 50% for services and 71% for sales).
This is why a “micro-entrepreneur” cannot deduct the usual expenses such as telephone, travel or equipment.
Social contributions, from 12.8% to 22%, are calculated on the turnover. So, if there are no sales in a particular period (month or quarter) then you pay no contributions for that period.
Finally, the “micro-entrepreneur” is exempt of VAT (no invoicing, no recovery) up to €91,000 for a sale activity and €35,200 for a services activity".
https://www.saplaw.co.uk/brexit-articles/692-micro-entrepreneur-in-france
Looking at what's involved at becoming a Micro-entrepreneur in France looks far from onerous as far as I can see.
https://www.startbusinessinfrance.c...does-it-cost-to-register-a-business-in-france
With that massive Standard Deduction for Expenses for services industry of 50% on your gross annual earnings that is incredibly generous so I can see why they state "This is why a “micro-entrepreneur” cannot deduct the usual expenses such as telephone, travel or equipment". Surely one would feel the need to be registered as a Micro-entrepreneur otherwise you would just be "Workin' for the man." as the old chain gang song goes.
Chris Young
Raphael Madeira
Member
Apologies, I meant that we call freelancers Micro-entrepreneurs, not that they're a "company" per se.
And yes, I am registered as one and for someone like me it is the best choice for the several reasons you mentioned like being exempt of vat till a certain value or no expenses to pay if you don't make any money.
In practice however, that doesn't change the market we work in. We can't find that much work with the oversaturation of the market to begin with, remember, 300€ a day is considered expensive by many, the average being 150€-200€ and sometimes for the shoot, not the day. Also, we don't deal with clients that will be fine being billed price + vat all of a sudden just because your situation changed, that's our problem, not theirs.
Anyway the reason I was mentioning Micro-entrepreneur was referring to gear, not the rest. We can't recover anything on gear as an independent like micro entrepreneur and being a company is too cost prohibitive.
In theory, France might look appealing, in practice, it's not.
Also, regarding the standard deduction for expenses of 50%, that only applies to a very select few, and now with covid to those focusing on working from home. In fact this is so rare I had no idea what you were talking about.
For companies that do have "some" expenses (not standard) that are eligible for deduction, they are between 20% and 30% from what I know. And this does not apply to Micro-entrepreneurs.
Anyway, all I meant with this was to show that in Europe we live in different markets and different legal conditions and it makes more sense to want more out of your gear investment in terms of resale value, that's all.
Cheers
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Samuel Dilworth
Well-known member
I’m also a micro-entrepreneur in France and agree that it’s not as attractive as it sounds, or even as attractive as it was at the beginning (auto-entrepreneur). They keep adding new regulations and taxes and making things more complex, when the original purpose of this regime was simplicity. For example, I have to pay a yearly tax for working from home (this started before Covid). The paperwork is complex, especially for a foreigner like me, and the websites you must use for this bureaucracy are constantly changing and often entirely dysfunctional, etc.
I had a look at your ad. Even though it’s better than many, there are still too many items being sold as a package. I never want whatever accesories someone else thought they needed. Accessories, memory cards, etc., are a very personal choice – and some potential buyers of the camera will already have the accessories they want. Your camera looks very nice, though. Good luck. Why not put it on eBay or something like that? Probably hundreds of times more viewers than on a site like this, especially in Europe, and eBay works well for big-value items because the fees, although high for small items, are capped at a reasonable level for big items. I mean with a buy-it-now price, of course. Auctions on eBay are a terrible idea for the seller nowadays, especially for something like this camera.
And we do get more for used gear, although we pay more for it to begin with too.
I had a look at your ad. Even though it’s better than many, there are still too many items being sold as a package. I never want whatever accesories someone else thought they needed. Accessories, memory cards, etc., are a very personal choice – and some potential buyers of the camera will already have the accessories they want. Your camera looks very nice, though. Good luck. Why not put it on eBay or something like that? Probably hundreds of times more viewers than on a site like this, especially in Europe, and eBay works well for big-value items because the fees, although high for small items, are capped at a reasonable level for big items. I mean with a buy-it-now price, of course. Auctions on eBay are a terrible idea for the seller nowadays, especially for something like this camera.
cyvideo
Veteran
Well I guess it appears to be a bit of a pain to be a freelancer in France. It's never easy anywhere. Previously I was UK based but ended up coming to Aus for a visit after covering SE Asia for the BBC... and decided to stay. I still feel though if you can earn a good living with your skills the money lost on resale is but a small price to pay for the pleasure of plying your trade Those of us who can earn a decent living doing what we like and enjoy are very fortunate. Trust things look up for you Raphael.
Chris Young
Chris Young
Raphael Madeira
Member
Thank you Chris
100% agree that it's great to be able to do what we love and stuff like loss of resale value is a small price to pay for it.
Also as long as we can guarantee income with our gear, basically paying for itself, then resale value is more of a welcome bonus and not as much of a priority.
But then again Covid sure didn't help those in struggling businesses I imagine, sure didn't help me hahahaha.
Funny that you should mention Asia, my girlfriend is from China and she keeps telling me that rather than giving up the trade, that I should move to Beijing of Shanghai because there are better opportunities for someone like me, just have the language barrier to worry about I guess.
Anyway, enjoyed the exchange mate, thanks for your insight
cyvideo
Veteran
No problems mate. Good to swap points of view. Understand your situation with Covid. It did none of us any favors. Here in Australia, we got off pretty lightly... so far! It's only just started to get back to normal. Only three weeks ago I contracted for a season of live rugby coverage. Tech director on setup and then man the tight camera. Seems like an eternity since I had a regular weekly gig. Been living off a bit of corporate shoot stuff but mainly post-production for others over the last twelve months. Live long and prosper.
Chris Young
Chris Young
The Eva1 is an incredible camera. I had to sell mine in 2019 when everyone was listing them for 5-6k with accessories. I sold mine for $3,200 with a couple of things and it went pretty fast. I felt stupid later seeing everyone keep the sales prices high for years, but then I wonder how many actually sold. I agree with the guy above, selling used gear anywhere near the new price only works with some items. Tech is moving too fast.