EVA1 5.7K CDNG misunderstanding

Hi Mitch,
I think I remember asking you about the possibility of 5.7k data being available back at the Angelica intro event in NYC. Based on your response (and this is just my recollection) I had the impression that 5.7k was barely on the radar at that point, with the biggest 'future firmware' goal being the addition of 400I recording. In my mind I figured 5.7k was pretty far off - so I was really surprised that it arrived in the same firmware release as 400I! (My purchase of an EVA1 last December certainly was not with the expectation of the 5.7k output as a feature.)

To Others --
In terms of the currently limited recording options - I hope that the recent comments motivate users to call/email/post their requests directly to their favorite recorder manufacturers, whether Atomos, C-D, VideoDevices, BMD, etc... to let them know that adding the capability to record 5.7k raw is something that will induce you to spend more on their recorders - or upgrade to their next generation recorders that should feature the option.
 
That is all pure theory but the customer still suffers because he has not the 5.7K raw. WE pay the bill for that.

And since this is a business-to-business relationship between companies like Panasonic and Atomos, it is simply not correct that one party can deside such points alone. Atomos could have done nothing without the internal knowledge about how raw is delivered by the camera.

And by the way, I purchased the Shogun Inferno only after the support for the EVA-1 was announced. But true is that one cannot trust such announcements really. Never again I will purchase from Panasonic or Atomos only because they have promised features. Trust is gone.
 
with due respect to Mitch but I made this experience already when I purchased the Odyssey 7Q. Plans and possibilities, roadmaps etc were announced but it took ages until they were supplied. I think there are too sides of the medal. The very tempting presentation and a kind of blindness of the (potential) buyers to see that these are projects and not yet given. I never trust announcements. I only buy what is available. I didn't even test the EVA-1 before the promised firmware with 400mbs all-i was available.
 
This is not Panasonic’s issue, they provided what they advertised, a csmera that can output 5.6K Raw signal, with recording support to be provided by a third party company. As soon as you buy into this scenario, you are putting yourself at the mercy of the companies that will be making and selling thr recorder, which to date, only include two companies that make a recorder to record Raw. The only way round this, is to buy a camera that records Raw internally. Sony provides their own recorder and media at a high cost. Pro video market is not a general consumer market, but more of a small niche one, with only a few players, and expecting full consumer type choices and support is unrealistic.

Making a camera for this market is also full of design choices and which features to include. Panasonic’s first camera in this middle ProCamera market (sub $10k) was the AF100, which featured a MFT mount that allowed a very wide choice of lenses, with the addition of fairly inexpensive adapters. With the EVA1 Panasonic abandoned its AF100 buyers and went with a larger sensor, EF mount camera limiting the lens choices you can use. A EVF was also not included, requiring this to be provided by other companies. Another compromise is the external Raw recording, again limiting how your RW signal can be recorded and used in a NLE to outside sources like Atomos.

All this information was released when the camera came to market, and when you bought this camera, you were buying into these limitations and compromises. Panasonic provided the camera they specified. Now it is up to other companies to make the required accessories, and you as to how you are going to use it.
Cheers
 
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I hope this is not some corporate tactic by a well-known 'fruit' company in trying to lock out CDNG given the Atomos CEO's and Panasonic representatives raving about ProRes RAW.
 
Cary Knoop said:
I hope this is not some corporate tactic by a well-known 'fruit' company in trying to lock out CDNG given the Atomos CEO's and Panasonic representatives raving about ProRes RAW.
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There's a big difference between trying to deliver the best product/service for you and your customers (without much regard for others) and trying to explicitly undermine the competition.

I think Apple is trying to bring something to the table with ProRes RAW and they have a long history of supporting many open source projects, including offering up some of their own. Additionally, Apple has recommitted itself to rejuvenate their Mac Pro. I think ProRes RAW goes hand in hand with that. If ProRes RAW should turn out to be a competitive advantage agains competing computer platforms, I don't think anyone can hold it agains Apple for not offering it for free—and they certainly don't owe it to anyone.

Cineform is great right? Isn't that starting to get a foothold outside of the Apple ecosystem? If not, why?

(I don't want to derail the thread through....)
 
AndreeOnline said:
Cineform is great right? Isn't that starting to get a foothold outside of the Apple ecosystem? If not, why?
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I hope it is not because the 'fruit' company 'discourages' companies from adding or extending CDNG and Cineform (raw) or other more open solutions if they ask them to license ProRes raw.

As long as Atomos and Panasonic provide both closed and more open and platform independent codec formats I think it is all good.
The Apple cheerleaders can use all Apple and be happy and praise the greatness of Apple! The problem is when other codecs are pushed out or not implemented and people are forced to use Apple proprietary software and hardware.

I fear that if hardware companies like Panasonic and Atomos become Apple cheerleaders their more open codecs will disappear or become crippled.
 
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I do not see Panasonic having done anything with the release of the EVA that was misleading, nor do I think that the EVA has a useful lifespan of 2 years. (read that theory somewhere back in this thread I think) I was one of those bitterly complaining about the mount before the camera was released, but now I'm trending towards buying one...still hate the mount, but the image is lovely
 
fboonzaier said:
I do not see Panasonic having done anything with the release of the EVA that was misleading, nor do I think that the EVA has a useful lifespan of 2 years. (read that theory somewhere back in this thread I think) I was one of those bitterly complaining about the mount before the camera was released, but now I'm trending towards buying one...still hate the mount, but the image is lovely
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same thing here. In rented it for a test, very pleased with the image. EF mount is a downside, display is a nightmare. I am really missing a quick switch from 25/30p to 50/60p.
 
Lots of wisdom here.

And to add to the points... sure ALL-I 400mbps is out on EVA1 now (and GH5). Panasonic's support of this was first announced in early 2017 to coincide with the imminent release of v90 SD cards. 1.5 years later and v90 sd cards are still very limited in availability and the cost very high @ $200 for every 128gb (or more, depending on brand). Especially pricey considering how much space 400mbps ALL-I eats. It's here, it works, etc. but its easy to see how one could be dissapointed with how things have played out (and how long its taken to get to even this point).

I appreciate all-i 400mbps internal for what it is but frankly, given all we have learned about EVA1 since june announcement, what makes more sense would be to add the much needed LCD screen via a Ninja V and get a 1tb SSD for ProRes... 1tb of SSD is less than the cost of 256gb of v90 media; recorder + SSD well less than the cost of 1tb v90 sd.

Too many variables in promised future roadmaps. IE, we still haven't seen the supposed GH5 48p mode that was advertised in early 2017 for a future firmware, and 7 months after EVA1 launch still waiting on a hopeful list of firmware update requests that mostly seem pretty basic.
 
On a side note I hope that all those asking for 5.7k RAW are aware of the enormous amount of data involved and processing power required in terms of a workstation, storage and recorder to handle that footage.

Panasonic has delivered as promised. Now it's up to the companies making recorders.
 
Harry Lime said:
On a side note I hope that all those asking for 5.7k RAW are aware of the enormous amount of data involved and processing power required in terms of a workstation, storage and recorder to handle that footage.
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Indeed 5.7k is more than double the size of 4k raw.
 
NorBro said:
ha...Denny, that's the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread...but I figured no one would know what I was talking about as I think Blackmagic is not even too sure what they are exactly offering right now with that update.

It's funny to see a note in the BMMSC manual that Resolve does not offer support for that RAW recording.
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Not even with BMD's own 4K recorder?! :-/ Ah well
 
The BM recorders aren't RAW recorders...but maybe that will change in the future via firmware (although most likely hardware/new models).
 
Well, the original Hyperdeck Shuttle will record an uncompressed video signal, no codec applied, so,it will record “Raw” camera output, but HD only, not UHD/4K. So a UHD capable recorder that can record an uncompressed video signal would be needed.
Cheers
 
If you're going to use something, the UltraStudios and Decklinks are the best options.
 
Harry Lime said:
On a side note I hope that all those asking for 5.7k RAW are aware of the enormous amount of data involved and processing power required in terms of a workstation, storage and recorder to handle that footage.

Panasonic has delivered as promised. Now it's up to the companies making recorders.
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I think this is an excellent point, and perhaps begs the greater question (especially in Wolfgang's case) of what exactly are the advantages/disadvantages of shooting 5.7K RAW on the EVA1? I would suspect some folks are getting caught up in the tech specs, specifically the (false?) assumption that bigger/more is better, as opposed to results in overall image quality, how it relates to workflow in production and post, additional cost of acquisition (more gear to buy!), etc., etc., etc. This would be an enormously helpful topic to explore (probably in another thread), and would go a long way in helping to manage expectations with some Earthly foundations :)

My understanding is that the EVA1 was never really pushed out as a 5.7K camera, but rather a really good 4K camera in part because it down-samples from its 5.7K sensor. That Panasonic offers 5.7K RAW output, to me, just seems like an interesting bonus. I currently don't have any demands for 5.7K material, and if I ever do, I will charge a premium for it and invest in the appropriate devices to make it work (assuming it makes business sense to do so). Other than having the ability to punch-in/pan/tilt/zoom in post on a 4K project, I'm not sure if 5.7K footage is particularly advantageous... especially if it compromises quality, workflow, cost, etc. vs. shooting in 4K. I'm not particularly bothered that 5.7K RAW is (unnecessarily) limited to an exclusive set of devices/NLE/OS for the moment.

...but in all honesty, I don't know enough about it. The good, the bad...the when, the WHY? And I think there are many others here who, whether they realize it or not, could really benefit from some greater insight into this.

Might this be a chapter or two in Barry's book???
 
Seanik said:
My understanding is that the EVA1 was never really pushed out as a 5.7K camera, but rather a really good 4K camera in part because it down-samples from its 5.7K sensor. That Panasonic offers 5.7K RAW output, to me, just seems like an interesting bonus.
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I think, for the most part, that is the strongest selling point of the camera's 5.7K sensor, that it can give you "true" 4K.

All of these high-res RAW capabilities sound great, but how many people REALLY need the capabilities? Is the work you're doing REALLY that demanding? Or are you just a sloppy shooter and think that it will save you butt in post? Or do you want to just sound cool and say, "Hey I'm shooting RAW"?

I've only shot RAW on my F55 twice. Once for some green screen work for an agency for a movie studio. And once more for Sony for use at a trade show for 4K & HDR on their big CLEDIS display. I'm not arguing that high-res RAW isn't useful or not without advantages, but do you REALLY need it? 4K log is plenty to work with in most cases. And in a lot of those cases, is probably even over-kill.
 
Denny16 said:
Well, the original Hyperdeck Shuttle will record an uncompressed video signal, no codec applied, so,it will record “Raw” camera output, but HD only, not UHD/4K. So a UHD capable recorder that can record an uncompressed video signal would be needed.
Cheers
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The Hyper-deck will only record 422 uncompressed.
 
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