EVA1 5.7K CDNG misunderstanding

J

jedtrently

Member
Hallo,

After discovering that the EVA1 cannot in fact record 5.7k CDNG, but a 4K crop mode instead, when using the Atomos. It was quite disconcerting to hear and led to some confusion as I'm sure it has been reported that it could do CDNG. The 5.7k RAW record with the Atomos is only for ProRes RAW.


'The biggest part of this firmware update is certainly the unlocking of external RAW recording from the EVA1. With the new version 2.0 firmware, the EVA1 is able to output uncompressed RAW via 6G SDI. RAW formats that will be able to be recorded include 5.7K at 1fps to 30fps, 4K at 1fps to 60fps, and 2K at 1fps to 240fps.'


'uncompressed RAW' suggests CDNG and not ProRes Raw, right?


'RAW files are too big to fit into the internal SD cards used by the platform, and so what's required is the use of an external recorder connected over 6G SDI for RAW recording in the CDNG RAW format. Taking full advantage of the 5.7K resolution of the Super35mm sensor....'


They should really specify that it's ProRes RAW not CDNG and there's a huge difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18MwdsGtIaM

The Panasonic representative specifically says that the EVA1 will do 5.7k (Full sensor read) CDNG 12-bit uncompressed RAW.

Was this a planned feature of the EVA1 but got shelved? Will it come later in an update?

The option to crop into an image to find a better frame, or just reap the benefits of downsampling to 4k was something that made this camera such an attractive prospect.

Can anybody shed any light on this? Specifically Mitch or Barry please

All the best
 
I’d bet the 4k CDNG is a limitation of the Atomos recorder, not the camera. Love to see them record the 10 bit Cineon log lossless DNG compressed mode that Slimraw uses. They could possibly have the bandwidth to do that with the Atomos.
 
Note that even your first quote says "RAW formats that will be able to be recorded" -- the operable word being "will" -- with no reference to when...

Perhaps they should be more clear by just stating what the camera can 'output' - and by not introducing the 'recorded' word into the description since recording is handled by equipment from other companies...

Also take note of the general date/time descriptions and the qualifiers in the explanation in the video clip - which was of course shot before ProResRaw had been announced. I was actually pleasantly surprised how quickly some of these 'future features' of the camera have been implemented into the firmware!
 
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Your understanding is entirely backwards and incorrect.

The EVA1 outputs uncompressed raw exactly as it says.

Any problems with recording that raw signal are problems with the recorder, and need to be solved by the recorder manufacturer.

CDNG is a recording format, as is ProRes RAW. The camera doesn't output CDNG or ProRes RAW, it outputs an uncompressed raw signal. The recorder receives that raw signal and then records it into whatever recording format you tell it to.

CDNG can be either compressed or uncompressed, the format supports both options. ProRes RAW is always compressed.

It is my understanding that the Atomos cannot record 5.7k CDNG for the same reason it can't record 4k/60 CDNG: the data rate is too high for their single SSD to be able to handle. Perhaps if they introduced compressed CDNG, it might be able to handle it?

In any case: the camera is doing it's part and it is outputting exactly what they said it is. If there are shortcomings in the recorder's ability to handle that, those shortcomings will have to be addressed by the recorder manufacturer.
 
Barry_Green said:
Your understanding is entirely backwards and incorrect.

The EVA1 outputs uncompressed raw exactly as it says.

Any problems with recording that raw signal are problems with the recorder, and need to be solved by the recorder manufacturer.

CDNG is a recording format, as is ProRes RAW. The camera doesn't output CDNG or ProRes RAW, it outputs an uncompressed raw signal. The recorder receives that raw signal and then records it into whatever recording format you tell it to.

CDNG can be either compressed or uncompressed, the format supports both options. ProRes RAW is always compressed.

It is my understanding that the Atomos cannot record 5.7k CDNG for the same reason it can't record 4k/60 CDNG: the data rate is too high for their single SSD to be able to handle. Perhaps if they introduced compressed CDNG, it might be able to handle it?

In any case: the camera is doing it's part and it is outputting exactly what they said it is. If there are shortcomings in the recorder's ability to handle that, those shortcomings will have to be addressed by the recorder manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, Barry.

Yeah, I think my terminology is causing confusion and I myself am giving out misinformation, ironically! I meant output when I said record but you are quite right with your corrections.

Right, that's clear now. So the EVA1 outputs 5.7k Uncompressed RAW but the Atomos Shogun Inferno cannot record the signal in 5.7k CDNG because it cannot process that much data due to its single SSD. Does anybody know if the Oddysey 7Q+ can do 5.7k CDNG with its dual SSD cards?

Yeah, in that case, it seems the Atomos is the cul-de-sac here. I hope they roll out the ProRes RAW support with the Shogun Inferno before the month's out as they said - I can only seem to get 4k ProRes RAW on it at the moment.

All the best
 
OnSet said:
Note that even your first quote says "RAW formats that will be able to be recorded" -- the operable word being "will" -- with no reference to when...

Perhaps they should be more clear by just stating what the camera can 'output' - and by not introducing the 'recorded' word into the description since recording is handled by equipment from other companies...

Also take note of the general date/time descriptions and the qualifiers in the explanation in the video clip - which was of course shot before ProResRaw had been announced. I was actually pleasantly surprised how quickly some of these 'future features' of the camera have been implemented into the firmware!
Click to expand...

Yes I suppose you have to be weary of what gets thrown around and specific terminology seems crucially important.
 
Currently this is what the Atomos shogun zinferno and Sumo 19 can record from the RAWoutput of the EVA1:

4K CinemaDNG up to 30p
2K CinemaDNG up to 120p
4K ProRes RAW/ProRes RAW HQ up to 60p
2K ProRes RAW/ProRes RAW HQ up to 240p
4K/UHD RAW->video ProRes/DNxHR up to 60p
2K/HD RAW->video ProRes/DNxHD up to 240p

The Atomos products are supposed to add 5.7K ProRes RAW/ProRes RAW HQ up to 30p shortly.
The resolution/frame rate limitations on CinemaDNG are due to the data throughput capacity of a SATA bus, which is how the SSD connects to the recorder.

While in theory the dual SSDs of the Odyssey7Q+ would allow for recording CinemaDNG in all resolutions & frame rates from the EVA1, Convergent Design has not announced support for the camera at this time.


Panasonic does not lie about our products. We state what the camera can output. We cannot speak for what another company’s product will do. Once another company announces or releases information we are happy to share it as appropriate. In theory there are several devices that could be configured to capture the output from the camera, but so far only Atomos has announced and/or released support for EVA1 RAW.
 
Barry_Green said:
In any case: the camera is doing it's part and it is outputting exactly what they said it is. If there are shortcomings in the recorder's ability to handle that, those shortcomings will have to be addressed by the recorder manufacturer.
Click to expand...

That is an understanding that is also not true in the perception of the customer at the end of the day: 5.7K raw was promissed, 5.7K raw is not here yet in both the Firmware update for the Shogun not for the Windows users (only FCP-X user can use that). Given the strong business partnership between Atomos and Panasonic, it would have been Sound behaviour to tell the customers in advance what will be delivered really. But they have not done that in such a Detail that it was clear that ProRes Raw will be supported by FCP-X only, for example.

Fact is that the 5.7K raw is not here for me as Windows user and customer of both companies. And I do not care really that one side states that it is the fault of the other side. I say it again: 5.7K raw has simply not been deliverd to me as Windows customer.

Given a product cycle of two years maybe, that means that a lot of the promissed value is not here (for me).

Sorry to say so, but that is not fair and that is how I see that in terms of business ethics.
 
Panasonic promised 5.7K RAW. The camera spits out 5.7K RAW. Also, Panasonic has nothing to do with ProRes RAW. The camera does not record or output ProRes RAW and was never advertised to. At this level, the customer should be able to understand the information that is put out there and to also ask specific questions if they have any. It's fairly clear to me...

Your issues/problems are with Atomos, not Panasonic.

Now with that being said, I will say that I don't necessarily like having some of the top advertised features/selling points of a camera/piece of gear tied-to/at the mercy of a third party manufacturer, which being able to record 5.7K RAW is. But Panasonic has upheld their promises as far as I am concerned.
 
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Well, there's how you see it, and there's how it is. Those aren't necessarily the same things.

The fact is: the camera outputs 5.7k raw, in variable frame rates, at rates between 1 and 30 frames per second. It outputs 4K raw at rates between 1 and 60. It outputs 2K raw at rates between 1 and 240. It does that today. It does that now. And that is what they promised. And that is what they delivered. So Panasonic has done their part.

And you are correct -- there is no workflow for a Windows user. And that sucks. And I complained bitterly to them at the time that they released this, because of the Mac-centric nature of the release. And there's not a thing Panasonic can do about it. Panasonic did not invent ProRes raw. Panasonic has nothing to do with ProRes raw. That's an Apple thing and strictly an Apple thing, and Atomos chose to support it. Panasonic can't do anything about it.

There is something Atomos can do about it. They can implement the 5.7K. They can implement the variable frame rates. They can choose to support an alternate recording codec. They could choose to implement compressed CDNG. As of now, they have not done so. And it is hard to blame Atomos -- seriously, they implemented raw support for FREE for an existing product, it's hard to ask much more of them. But the absolute fact remains: if you want to use raw video, you need a recorder that supports raw video. So it's up to Atomos, or Codex, or Convergent Design, or Sound Devices, or BlackMagic, or some other recorder company to produce a recorder or adapt their recorder to support the raw output that the camera is already delivering.

If you refuse to use the tools that are available, then ... well, yeah, you end up in the situation you're in. You kind of have a Mohammed and the Mountain situation there. Same as I found myself in. Well, find myself in, because I don't use Macs to edit either, so I can't take advantage of the raw output either.

Or you can petition Panasonic to make an external raw recorder. I would not hold my breath on that one, but it's possible that they could do it. Of course, it would almost certainly need P2 Express cards, and the creation of a new format, and then however much hassle it would take to get the NLE companies to support their new format, so ... there is no easy solution forward. The most likely path is to petition Atomos to make a Windows-compatible codec (just like they support both ProRes and DNxHD); I would suggest petitioning them for Compressed DNG. DNG files already work on Windows, if they supported compression perhaps they would be able to support the full 5.7k on a single SSD that way. Or BlackMagic... they already have compressed DNG support in their cameras. Maybe they could be convinced to add raw->CDNG support to one of their external recorders.

It may sound like I have no sympathy for your cause. Instead, understand that I've been down this road before. Early P2 support for Windows absolutely sucked. Apple was the first to integrate native DVCPRO-HD, and editing on a Mac was really the only viable editing path forward. And that was just the fact. So I bought a Mac, and FCP. Hated it, and sold it later, and used a software product called Raylight which added on-the-fly DVCPRO-HD support to Windows computers. And then gradually the Windows editors became able to support DVCPRO-HD and the whole world equalized again.

So, here we go again. Maybe we should be asking Marcus Van Bavel to make a ProRes RAW version of Raylight. In fact, I just sent him an email asking him to consider it.

In the meantime, you can be angry about what you perceive as unkept promises, or you can acknowledge the reality in front of you, that's your choice. The camera is doing what Panasonic promised it would do. I understand that you see that as a technicality, because you don't have an end-to-end workflow on your chosen hardware. All I can say from 14 years of experience here is: been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and I'm trying to tell you how it's likely to play out. Those who really want to work with raw today can do so, they just have to be Apple users. And you could choose that path too. Or, there will probably eventually be native Windows support, but who knows when. The recorder manufacturers could solve this issue for you immediately if they felt it was a high enough priority for them; they are the only ones who can solve it end-to-end. And as an alternative, some enterprising software author might be able to provide an appropriate tool that would solve it.
 
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wschmid said:
That is an understanding that is also not true in the perception of the customer at the end of the day: 5.7K raw was promissed, 5.7K raw is not here yet in both the Firmware update for the Shogun not for the Windows users (only FCP-X user can use that). Given the strong business partnership between Atomos and Panasonic, it would have been Sound behaviour to tell the customers in advance what will be delivered really. But they have not done that in such a Detail that it was clear that ProRes Raw will be supported by FCP-X only, for example.

Fact is that the 5.7K raw is not here for me as Windows user and customer of both companies. And I do not care really that one side states that it is the fault of the other side. I say it again: 5.7K raw has simply not been deliverd to me as Windows customer.

Given a product cycle of two years maybe, that means that a lot of the promissed value is not here (for me).

Sorry to say so, but that is not fair and that is how I see that in terms of business ethics.
Click to expand...


I don't really like to take sides on these kinds of discussions, but the piling on here is becoming a little bit absurd. Even the most basic level of understanding how 5.7K RAW is recorded, tells you that there are two distinct components involved: the camera and the external recorder.

In this case, the camera has delivered on its promise of a (free!) firmware upgrade to output RAW up to 5.7K.

The recorder side of the equation is a bit muddled for the moment. As I understand it, Atomos chose to meet this need by a firmware upgrade as well (instead of new models with new hardware). In order to RECORD 5.7K RAW on to their existing hardware, it needs to be compressed somehow. They could have elected to go with something like CDNG 3:1 or 4:1 (like the Blackmagic cameras use), but instead, Atomos chose to use Apple's ProRes RAW. And so with Apple being Apple, we now have this new capability unnecessarily restricted to Apple FCPX users. Technically, however, everyone has done their part.

If you want to examine a business or business relationship to (rightly) point the finger at, look no farther than Apple itself (I mean, my god... the f-ing irony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I). And then, none of this mess even exists without Atomos making the faustian bargain to begin with.

But, to put it all into perspective, this just describes the situation as it exists at this moment. At some point, the exclusivity of ProRes RAW will be lifted and will be available on other NLE's (and OS's). At some point, other manufacturers of external recorders will likely have solutions to record 5.7K RAW as well. I would expect Convergent Design to be in the mix, and possibly a few others like Blackmagic, Video Devices, etc., but this is pure speculation on my part.

So, here's a question to ask: Is there anything more that Panasonic can do to the EVA1 to give you 5.7K RAW capability? No. They've done their part. Is there anything that manufacturers of external recorders can do to give you 5.7 RAW capability? Yes. A lot, actually.

At the top of this thread, there was apparently some confusion about how the RAW signal output from the EVA1 is supposed to be recorded on external recorders, and that lead to further confusion about possible technical limitations on the camera side of things. That's totally understandable. But now that that's been straightened out, it's pretty clear that the limitations, to the extent that they exist, are the result of the currently available external recorders. As frustrating as it is for most of us (I use Premiere/Resolve), we just have to remember that as EVA1 users/owners, we are early adopters. A few of the "future-resistant" features of this camera that may have motivated many of us toward buying it in the first place can also be frustrating if they depend on external devices to be developed and delivered to market by third-parties. As time goes by, I'm getting that more and more, and the truth is, we are the ones responsible for purchasing a camera on the cutting edge vs. widely available technologies.

You mention that the camera's product cycle is about two years, and as I understand it, you feel that too much of that time is being wasted on waiting for "promised value" to become functional. I think that's fallacious logic. One might argue that the longer the external device markets take to develop to support the EVA1's most advanced features, the longer this camera remains "valuable" (whatever that means, exactly).

I concede that Panasonic did allude to Atomos having an solution for 5.7K RAW recording forthcoming, and that there was probably no way to anticipate the unholy alliance of Atomos/Apple ProRes RAW. But, that was clearly an Atomos decision, not Panasonic. Be patient. There may be other solutions around the corner. Also, take heart that while 5.7K RAW is nice, I would be absolutely shocked to learn that there is a client out there in the world who knows about it, much less demands it :)
 
I can understand the frustration if one doesn't follow this closely.

If you're close to the industry and a bit of a gear head, yeah, it makes sense. EVA1 outputs 5.7k RAW. Camera handles output. Other stuff handles input. Duh. And being close to the industry, you know things like supported format standards and throughput on CDNG, SDI, SSDs, etc. and can do the math and draw the conclusions.

However if you're not, it can feel like being duped or mislead to read "5.7K RAW available in spring 2018" and then have it roll around and find out there is literally ONE recorder on the market that can do that, and even then it's supported 5.7K format (ProRes RAW) is exclusive not only to one platform (Mac) but one piece of software (FCP X). Ouch. There's a lot of gotchas here too, such as the statement that 4K RAW output will be able to output VFR modes to a RAW signal. This is 100% true - but no one can take it (or maybe Odyssey recorder can? Not sure, but Atomos sure can't).

This is not Panasonic's fault at all, the camera does EXACTLY what it is advertised to. And anyone who really knows their gear knows where input responsibilities lay. However, for many of us we learn or learned that along the way - sometimes the hard way.

One thing that would go a long way, not as a manufacture requirement but as a kind statement of customer care and goodwill, would have been an asteriks last year stating something to the effect of "*EVA1 outputs 5.7K RAW. Input and recording is wholly contingent on 3rd party compatibility. No current solutions exist on market as of this writing". This is a "NSS" moment for many of us, but there are a lot of people whom this is not.

Sorry for your predicament wschmid!

As others stated, rest assured the situation will improve and likely within the year. Also I do believe the EVA1 will have a much longer shelf life than 2 years.
 
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Panasonic is not alone in this situation. Blackmagic rolled out an uncompressed Raw output upgrade on their Micro Studio Camera 4K last winter, but as of now, there are no external recorders or devices that can properly record it, and no NLEs that can edit it.
Cheers
 
ha...Denny, that's the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread...but I figured no one would know what I was talking about as I think Blackmagic is not even too sure what they are exactly offering right now with that update.

It's funny to see a note in the BMMSC manual that Resolve does not offer support for that RAW recording.
 
And then there's a reverse situation:

Atomos will soon release the Ninja V with RAW recording capabilities, but it has only HDMI in/out... and there are currently ZERO cameras on the market that output RAW via HDMI (moreover, RAW signal is not in HDMI specs, apparently)!

*This model does, however, have an expansion port where an SDI in/out module could possibly be made available for... but no word on that yet. Meanwhile, the Atomos reps on all of the reveal videos for various outlets at CES are openly urging people to lobby their camera manufacturers to support RAW via HDMI, lol.


This is one reason I never pre-order anything.
 
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filmguy123 said:
Also I do believe the EVA1 will have a much longer shelf life than 2 years.
Click to expand...

Yes. I believe someone claiming that the camera will only have a viable "shelf life" of two years is laying the hyperbole on a tad thick. It may not still be cutting edge in two years, but it will still be a fine camera. For just a glimpse into the real world: My main cameras are much older than that and still going strong. My current ENG cameras are P2 VariCams. I bought my first one in 2011. It's seven years old. And is native 720P! And I bought my F55 in 2015 and it was brought to market ~2013.
 
Re: Two Years shelf life.

The Alexa Classic, Amira, and even the Alexa 65 (pretty much all of the Arri cameras) are using the same ALEV III sensor. The image that those cameras produce are obviously still very viable after 5+ years of being on the market. The image they produce are beautiful, and that is hard to simply replace by the march of consumerism.

But in regards to camera technology, it feels like the market might be trending away from large format cinema anyway. The need for super high resolution cameras (4k and beyond) might be overkill as young people migrate more and more towards portable video displays to consume content. They have more allegiance to youtube than they do large format cinema.

If social media,youtube and netflix is a hint at the future. I doubt that your EVA1 will be retired in 2 years by a newer camera, much in the same way I still swap pics shot with my 5D classic with any new high mega-pixel mirrorless camera because the consumption is primarily 1080p displays, the occasional poster or large format print which the original 5D has plenty of resolution and image quality to render.

My advice, would be to just wait until the recorders catch up to the bleeding edge of technology in 6 months to a year.

cheers!
 
Yup. I'll be upgrading my EVA1 because I want internal 10-bit 422 4k 60p, dual ISO @ 5000 that's cleaner than 2500 today, and other such usability or specialty features. Not because the image quality got outdated... I think those days are fading quickly.

There is a large trend towards larger format sensors but that horse has been beaten to death around here and I largely agree it's unnecessary for solo ops and indies... if anything, I think the excitement is more in the smaller sensor size markets as the tech improves. Personally I'm more interested in seeing a small m43 size sensor with 14 stops DR and a more organic looking image, or the limits on S35 being pushed further, than I am in seeing an even larger sensor with even shallow DoF and larger iens requirements.

But I digress... may never sell the EVA1 at all as it should remain a good b-cam forever, and by the time it's not, it will likely be so supplanted in the industry that it won't evem be worth the price of the sale by then... point being, I just can't see this not being a great camera for a very long time, especially if shooting standard 24p content.
 
Before this topic is officially beaten to death, let me pose a hypothetical situation. What if Atomos had not presented 5.7K ProRes RAW and instead it or some other company had released a solution that was a new $5K box that recorded on $1.5K media? What if the only way to post this 5.7K material was an expensive powerful workstation? Basically, what if Codex was the only company to support the EVA1? Certainly Panasonic would have fulfilled all of the promises made in the support claims of the camera. And there would be a functioning system in place. Just one that would work out to be more costly than the camera.

Given that, is the current solution so terrible? Someone please show me where Panasonic promised support for 5.7K RAW on all platforms. We did not mislead, you perhaps misheard.
 
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