Epic and Scarlet release in 2010

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Emanuel... unfortunately I cannot get a hold of my electrical engineer guy who did the mods.. he's an introvert and not answering.

However, the director of the short Brand New Day would love to talk to you about what you do and possibilities for the short of getting into fests.... can I give your contact info to him?



I have been trying to PM you but your box is flooded! please email me at michael @ blackout.com
 
DavidChia said:
Yawn... Are we there yet?
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Nope. But here's the latest from REDUSER:

Jannard said:
This was shot with Peter Lik and Mick Plumridge in a ghost town near Las Vegas over the weekend. Both said "impossible" when we went into the barn. It was wicked dark in there and blistering noon desert-sun outside. They both fell over dead when they saw this. I called 911. They are OK now... :-)

Jim

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That same barn in motion: LINK


And a post showing how the appearance of motion can be altered in post when using HDRx(tm).

Jannard said:
With HDRx™, "Magic Motion" is variable.

Jim

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Buck Forester said:
That HDR stuff is exciting because it looks so natural... this is a huge breakthrough.
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Have to agree. And it seems those that have seen it so far projected at RED Studios have really been impressed with the fact that it looks very right. Definitely a good thing. I'll be ready when it is.
 
The first motion sample uses both exposures because there is a ghost image from the faster exposure. The last image shows normal motion blur so it must use only the normal (slow) exposure. The contrast is much higher in the third image, so I believe this is the case. This option mixes the two exposures, you can have extra dynamic range with the fast exposure fully visible, a part of the extra dynamic range with some visibility of the fast exposure ghosting and normal dynamic range with normal motion blur (fast exposure invisible).
 
I'm interested in seeing how the ghosting looks when a person moves close to the screen in a portrait shot or a closeup or in an action shot where the camera moves or shakes. In the shots I have seen so far, the motion is only a few pixels per frame and in reduced resolution frames, that guy in the barn is far from the camera and really taking his time. What if a zombie was after him? And how would makeup and blood look in HDR with a handheld camera? :)
 
My thoughts on the Scarlet.

"Nag not the genius who worketh in his basement, for when - in due time - he emergeth from his labors, greatness emergeth with him."

In the mean time, I'll be shooting on the Af100 for my personal projects and the Alexa for the bigger ones.

RED ONE Changed the film Industry on his head and forced the big boys to come to the party.

DSLR forced RED to come to the party.

As long as they are all playing Tag, the end user scores!

DLSR sent every camera company's scientists scuttling back down to the basement! Oh happy day!

Scarlet on steroids! WIN!
 
Otis Grapsas said:
I'm interested in seeing how the ghosting looks when a person moves close to the screen in a portrait shot or a closeup or in an action shot where the camera moves or shakes. In the shots I have seen so far, the motion is only a few pixels per frame and in reduced resolution frames, that guy in the barn is far from the camera and really taking his time. What if a zombie was after him? And how would makeup and blood look in HDR with a handheld camera? :)
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Are you sure that they use multiple or subsequent frames to do the combining? I'm really intrigued as to how they are doing HDRx and I can't find details on RedUser. Is there a link to discussion or info about how it works?
 
Otis Grapsas said:
I'm interested in seeing how the ghosting looks when a person moves close to the screen in a portrait shot or a closeup or in an action shot where the camera moves or shakes. In the shots I have seen so far, the motion is only a few pixels per frame and in reduced resolution frames, that guy in the barn is far from the camera and really taking his time.
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We'll have to wait and see...evidently the software behind this technology is in its infancy and Graeme is working on it all the time. That being said, I'm not sure RED will be shooting any zombie flicks soon...but you never know with them. :)

Wilbur Eddings said:
DSLR forced RED to come to the party.
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Not really sure how that's the case...Scarlet was envisioned in March 2008, then reinvisioned in Nov 2008 to be more or less what it is now (actually, less...they've added features since then but left the price more or less the same). Scarlet isn't in competition with the HDSLRs. Pricing and features set them completely apart.

And HDRx(tm) for Scarlet was something the community asked for, so RED wasn't really responding to anyone about that except the people who saw it on Epic and wanted it on Scarlet for a higher price.


TheReverend said:
Are you sure that they use multiple or subsequent frames to do the combining? I'm really intrigued as to how they are doing HDRx and I can't find details on RedUser. Is there a link to discussion or info about how it works?
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They haven't come out and said "This is how we do HDRx(tm)!" However, what they have said is that HDRx(tm) requires double the data rate and double the storage capacity of shooting normal footage because it captures two streams of images - an "x" frame stream and a normal stream. In post, as Otis has pointed out, you can vary HDR and "Magic Motion" dependently (i.e., if you have no HDR you have no magic motion, and vice versa.) Which basically makes it sound like the camera is getting two exposures within one frame and allowing you to blend them. This keeps things from truly "ghosting" and having a completely separate appearance of an exposure, but makes the portion of the image which is moving appear somewhat more prominent in the image (like a comet with a tail) on top of the exposure which shows more motion.

This is what Adam Wilt from ProVideo Coalition.com has to say:

"What RED has done is come up with a way (currently the subject of a patent application, so I cannot be more specific) of getting “two different exposures that are conjoined”, a normal exposure to capture the bulk of the tonal scale, and a much shorter exposure to capture highlight detail that would otherwise be blown out. These two exposures can be combined in-camera, which RED calls “EasyHDR”, or stored as two separate streams for combining in post with more control: “HDRx”."

Of course, as Otis was saying, how well will this work if someone is running past the lens? Or even just in an Ultra Close Up shot? There is much unknown as to how this works - it's all just postulation, remember - and much unknown about how it will perform.

The Foundry is also developing some sort of solution to handle HDRx(tm) along with RED. It's supposed to be rather insane.

And if the prospect of double data rate and double storage capacity is scary, remember there is EasyHDR(tm) which does the processing in camera.
 
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I'm pretty sure that subsequent frames wouldn't cut it. It's probably two signals coming off the one sensor each taking a different exposure. I mean, you'd hope it's not multiple (subsequent) frames because that leads to alot of temporal issues.

That would also take double the data rate btw...
 
TheReverend said:
I'm pretty sure that subsequent frames wouldn't cut it. It's probably two signals coming off the one sensor each taking a different exposure. I mean, you'd hope it's not multiple (subsequent) frames because that leads to alot of temporal issues.
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Right. In what I wrote above, in what Otis wrote above, and what Adam Wilt wrote in his article, the term "exposure" was used, not "frame".

I don't have a great grasp on this, but the 5ms read-reset time on the M-X chip allows for about 8 exposures within every 24fps frame with a 1/24 shutter. With 1/48 shutter that decreases to 4. So there is room for the camera to expose multiple images within the time it takes for a single frame to be captured (in fact...that's how motion blur happens?). Otis? Insight?
 
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If the time between the two frames can be very small, there is no problem with getting two frames, you get a fast shutter exposure and immediately get the normal shutter exposure. The normal one handles normal exposure range and the fast one handles highlights. The Red CMOS must be very fast because it does very fast frame rates. In this case, there will only be artifacts (other than the double exposure) in very fast motion and these can also be eliminated.

I have done this in the past on 80p using CCD and a number of techniques to reduce artifacts. It worked quite well, even though the exposure were far apart, but I didn't like the ghosting. It looked like a GOP codec in motion even though it was fully uncompressed intraframe.

I doubt such a patent would stand. There are many implementations using similar techniques that work well. Panasonic have demonstrated a low resolution sensor that does 3 exposures and gets more than 23 stops. This one gets one frame after the other. But those who process patents will allow patenting anything, including the wheel. They simply don't give a damn and even ignore the state of the art in the field they are covering. And the patenting process is a good market by itself. Then it boils down to "Who has the more money to spend in courts?". The little guys cannot even use the current state of the art because they have to invalidate a stupid patent that was filed and granted even though identical prior art existed, and the large companies can steal anything they need and settle with a little money or in court if you decide to put yourself against their lawyers.
 
Michael Olsen said:
Not really sure how that's the case...Scarlet was envisioned in March 2008, then reinvisioned in Nov 2008 to be more or less what it is now (actually, less...they've added features since then but left the price more or less the same). Scarlet isn't in competition with the HDSLRs. Pricing and features set them completely apart.
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The whole Scarlet/Epic range was scrapped and DMSC concept born after the Canon 5DII was announced. You could say coincidence, but I think they were directly linked.... and of course Scarlet (2/3") is in competition with DSLRs.... they are tools that we can use to make films and are in the sub $10k market.

Both have compromises ... scarlet is light years ahead in image quality... but has a smaller sensor and doesn't actually exist, has high storage/battery prices and cannot be purchased or serviced at major cities across the world. DSLRs have large sensor, are available everywhere, storage is cheap.... but image quality is currently not perfect.... by the time Scarlet launches though, who knows where DSLRs will be.... hence they are in competition, god only knows how many people have spent their Scarlet money on DSLRs (and soon on AF-100s).

This is no rant.... I have a 5DII and will get a GH2 and then wait for Scarlet S35... i'm lucky to be in the position that I can wait for them to get these cameras right.... and they will be well worth the wait.
 
These days, I don't think that one can say cameras are in different markets based on price alone, as we all know that the price of technology changes rapidly, and people are getting high quality results from cheaper and cheaper equipment. It used to be that 2/3" sensors only existed in $100,000 equipment, where now we can get better quality from $1,000 cameras.
 
Daniel Moore said:
It used to be that 2/3" sensors only existed in $100,000 equipment, where now we can get better quality from $1,000 cameras.
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This is one of those interesting points - is a large sensor camera with a poor codec and poor resolution of better quality than a small sensor camera with a great codec and great resolution? Hmm... :)
 
I think it's coming down to functionality. Having the ability to manipulate the image is very important and the higher end camera companies I believe base some of their price points on that fact.
 
stockfuel said:
The whole Scarlet/Epic range was scrapped and DMSC concept born after the Canon 5DII was announced.
You could say coincidence, but I think they were directly linked.... and of course Scarlet (2/3") is in competition with DSLRs....
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Ah...If you saying that the DSLRs caused RED to rethink entering the lower end of the market and lead to them making more expensive more capable cameras, than I think we can probably agree. That, and I think people at RED did really think about how much they were compromising.

I'm not so sure about how much it competes. They are both sub-10K, but the Scarlet is definitely no longer Sub-6K, which seems to be a more important number to the DSLR crowd. The amount of people upset by the $1000 price increase from $5K to $6K shocked me. Factor in the 2/3" sensor, and I don't know many people who are in the market for either a next-gen DSLR or an AF-100 who are really that interested in stepping up to a 2/3" Scarlet Fixed...or even the Cinema. Despite 3K resolution, despite lots of DR...the price and the sensor size seem to be prohibitive to them. They'd rather have a larger sensor with less DR and less resolution for less. And I can totally understand that. I'm just glad the options are out there and that the market seems to really be accelerating the direction of some really great prosumer and professional cameras regardless of what matters to the shooter - sensor size, resolution, DR...all of these are improving and prices are...relatively...falling!
 
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