Epic and Scarlet release in 2010

[Otis Grapsas]

I doubt if Jim and company are basing their workflows on any other aspect other than technical , and certainly not the exchange rate of the euro, which is overvalued anyway ! They have a flow chart with about 250 variables and most interlinked where any progress in a variable is dependant on resolving the other 249. I know because that´s how research works . Been there- done that. Patience from the peanut gallery will allow them to resolve the problems w/o dealing with the static.

Sourcing of parts is extremely important in the production schedule of any product that operates on a reasonable margin. This has nothing to do with research. Anything that hopes to be released in 6 months is way part the research stage anyway.

The euro is not overpriced. It's true value is over 1.30 USD and the monetary system in Europe is far healthier than that of the United States. But that's completely out of topic.

 

[Paul V Doherty]

Scarlet is dead as a market competitor...
Sure, the fanboys will still buy it, but at the current rate of setbacks even Canon will have a Scarlet-killer to market!
Perhaps Nikon will too!
I liked the idea of Scarlet, and I liked the price-tag, but Jannard has blown it.
He made the serious error of over-promising and under-delivering.
I bet the AF-100 does exactly the opposite.

 

[Michael Olsen]

I bet the AF-100 does exactly the opposite.

Here's hoping it'll resolve an alias/moire-free 1080p image, have very little skew/wobble/jello, and offer at least 12 stops of DR. :beer:

 

[Tzedekh]

Here's hoping it'll resolve an alias/moire-free 1080p image, have very little skew/wobble/jello, and offer at least 12 stops of DR. :beer:

Twelve stops? Not likely.

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Scarlet is dead as a market competitor...
Sure, the fanboys will still buy it, but at the current rate of setbacks even Canon will have a Scarlet-killer to market!
Perhaps Nikon will too!

Isn't that what people said 2 years ago?

To be a Scarlet killer a camera would be required to have EQUAL specifications and a LOWER price point... Something I really doubt will happen.

Big companies move at small steps. Very small.

But I could be gladly proved wrong.

Twelve stops? Not likely.

More like 'not likely' to all his wishes.

:lipsrseal

 

[Michael Olsen]

More like 'not likely' to all his wishes.

That's why I'm pretty convinced that even these most recently announced/released cams will not be "Scarlet-killers." They offer some of the advantages, they just don't quite match the feature set. And that's not to say they won't be good in their own right, either.

Then again, it's hard to a kill a product which isn't out yet with another product that isn't out yet. :beer:

 

[Paul V Doherty]

All I want now is large sensor, manual control, and manual XLR audio.
I don't even care about the codec or resolution, heck - I would take DV with all of the above!
Panasonic is on the mark but slightly expensive, and Sony's latest offering is close but no cigar (mainly due to lack of manual audio)....
Sometime soon, one of the big three will hit the mark - I'm excited!!!!!

2010/2011 WILL be the period when the "Holy Grail" comes to market :laugh:

 

[alexdias]

I still think that Scarlet, if it ever materializes, could possibly be a great option. But that's it, it will be one among several. It might be the "best" option but it will still have to compete with Sony, Pana and possibly Canon cameras.

The market is open and the first one to offer a proper large sensor HD video cam will do well.

 

[John Caballero]

sn't that what people said 2 years ago?

To be a Scarlet killer a camera would be required to have EQUAL specifications and a LOWER price point... Something I really doubt will happen.

And it will 2 more years of waiting for Scarlet. It will be like "deja vu all over again".

 

[Barry_Green]

To be a Scarlet killer a camera would be required to have EQUAL specifications and a LOWER price point... Something I really doubt will happen.

Doesn't a "scarlet killer" just have to EXIST?

Until Scarlet actually exists, anything that actually does exist could be classified as a scarlet killer.

Once it's actually out, well, then the conversation takes on relevance!

 

[Michael Olsen]

Doesn't a "scarlet killer" just have to EXIST?

Until Scarlet actually exists, anything that actually does exist could be classified as a scarlet killer.

Once it's actually out, well, then the conversation takes on relevance!

Good point, Barry. I agree, in part. Anything that comes to market before the Scarlet will be waving in the eyes of potential Scarlet customers and will definitely attract sales from many who don't really want/need all of what Scarlet offers and are willing to compromise based on the timeliness and the (likely) lower price accompanied by a previously unseen feature set - namely a true large chip video camera that (hopefully) is actually built from the ground up to make great video without the compromises of DSLRs.

I disagree in that people - perhaps not all, but at least many - would be happy to continue waiting for Scarlet even when something like the AF-100 comes out simply because the feature set isn't really equivalent.

In order for it to be a "Scarlet-killer" it would have to offer virtually the same (or better) features at an equivalent or reduced price. In effect, it would need to make Scarlet an obsolete choice - "dead" in the market.

As it is, the AF-100 and other cams don't match the feature set, but they don't match the price point either. A real S35 Scarlet setup will cost at least $10,000. If someone doesn't need, want, or care about the high resolutions and frame rates, ~13 stops of dynamic range, REDRAW, etc...they could save or amortize a few thousand dollars and simply purchase or upgrade to an AF-100. I don't really even see them as in the same marketplace since one costs considerably more than the other.

In a similar way the ALEXA isn't an "Epic-Killer", it's just a competing product that certainly has a place in the market and a place on set.

Of course, all of this will come into much sharper focus once November and December rolls around...

Honestly, I think the "Product-Killer" name is just a little silly as rarely do "Product-Killers" actually kill their intended foe. All those iPod killers, iPad killers, iPhone killers, etc.

I'd rather just recognize something as a great product in it's own right, not make it seem to exist with the purpose of destroying or denigrating another.

 

[Tzedekh]

To be a Scarlet killer a camera would be required to have EQUAL specifications and a LOWER price point...

Not really. A camera could be missing a few relatively minor features or have a few inferior specs but, on balance, be a much better purchase. What Scarlet has in its favor is significantly higher-than-1080p full-motion resolution and a much better codec (12-bit raw vs. 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264). In the unlikely event that, say, Canon produced a full-motion 4K APS-C camera with stellar raw for $2,500, yeah, 3K Scarlet might become a hard-sell. But you're right, it's improbable.

 

[Barry_Green]

Agreed in general with Michael Olsen, yes, except for this particular point:

In effect, it would need to make Scarlet an obsolete choice - "dead" in the market.

Scarlet has not yet ever been any manner of choice. It doesn't exist, has never existed, and it's been two and a quarter years, and even when it does exist, it'll be a 2/3" chip. Scarlet's not "dead" in the market, it's never "entered" the market.

It may very well do that this year, and if and when it does, it becomes something to discuss and evaluate on the merits it ACTUALLY brings to the table. Remember, we still don't actually know anything about what it will do or be, because every time they tell us something, they then follow up with "but that's all subject to change, indeed count on it changing."

Worrying about Scarlet is like planning out how you're going to go about chasing a moving target, when you don't even know what the playing field will be -- are you chasing it on grass? Mud? In a swimming pool? On the moon? How do you plan for that?

 

[Michael Olsen]

Scarlet has not yet ever been any manner of choice.

Good points, Barry. To be fair, neither has the AF-100 nor rumored Sony EX-1ified VG-10. It's an imaginary product with imaginary competitors, so far. (Of course, given the producers track records, there is a bit more credence to lend to Panasonic and Sony that they will actually ship their products as they specified.) It's all a bit nebulous and more "pub talk" than anything else.

The increasing likelihood of a real competitor has changed my thinking from "I'm saving for Scarlet" to "I'm saving for the next camera which will give me what I want".

I'm quite happy with the 7D. I just want/need my next camera to offer a lot more in terms of image quality. Whoever can do it best and for the right price within a reasonable time frame will get my money! :beer:

 

[Tzedekh]

Worrying about Scarlet is like planning out how you're going to go about chasing a moving target, when you don't even know what the playing field will be . . .

Or what the target looks like.

 

[Razz16mm]

Not all of us want or prefer a large sensor format for general motion production. For my own uses, I will buy a 2/3" or 16mm sized format camera over 35mm anything. You won't find any compact light weight 10:1 or greater constant speed f2-f3 range servo zooms for any 35mm camera.

Considering that the Oscar winners for best picture and best cinematography for two years running were shot mostly or entirely on S16mm film and/or 2/3" digital cameras it is certainly an aesthetically viable and practical format choice for any kind of production. It will continue to be so in the future, cheap 35mm format cameras or not. Shallow DOF is not the only criteria of "cinematic" visual style.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Not all of us want or prefer a large sensor format for general motion production. For my own uses, I will buy a 2/3" or 16mm sized format camera over 35mm anything. You won't find any compact light weight 10:1 or greater constant speed f2-f3 range servo zooms for any 35mm camera.

I'm learning that this is an increasingly overlooked paradigm. I've known quite a few people who have purchased DSLRs in all the hype and been quite annoyed with the characteristics of peudo S35 in comparison to 16mm/2/3". And it certainly has its advantages - shooting a fast prime on 16mm will give a bright, usable image but with a DOF deep enough to focus on more than a single feature of someone's face.

Aside: The proposed ability to window the S35 sensor to 16mm/2/3" on the Scarlet is actually something I hope to make good use of, especially in low light situations and for the 120fps. I'd like to see other cameras offer this functionality.

 

[Tzedekh]

You won't find any compact light weight 10:1 or greater constant speed f2-f3 range servo zooms for any 35mm camera.

True, for now. I have to wonder whether lens design has reached its theoretical limits. Maybe one of the lens manufacturers will create a radical new design that comprises light weight, constant wide T-stop, long focal range, and relatively small form factor.

 

[Barry_Green]

Good points, Barry. To be fair, neither has the AF-100 nor rumored Sony EX-1ified VG-10.

Okay, but there's a big difference among those three:
1) the AF-100: that is an actual product from a proven manufacturer who has released technical specifications on exactly what the product will do. There's nothing "imaginary" or "fantasy" or "unknown" about the AF-100 as far as what it is, what it's meant to do, who it's marketed to, and when it will be available.

2) the EX1ified VG-10: that's nothing more than a wishlist rumor. Sony themselves, as far as I know, have never said anything about any such product, so that's 100% fantasy-land.

3) the Scarlet -- now running on 2.25 years, has been totally revamped at least once if not twice, and the manufacturer has repeatedly said that "everything is subject to change." It is more real than a supposed "EV1ified VG-10" because at least the manufacturer has acknowledged that they are working on the Scarlet, unlike the fantasy EX1-VG10. But Red has made it their specific business to NOT let us know what the Scarlet truly will be. Everything -- and they mean EVERYTHING, including prices, shipping dates, feature sets, everything -- is subject to change. The Scarlet could come on the market and be a double-decker hamburger instead of a camera, for all we know! :laugh:

 

[Michael Olsen]

True, for now. I have to wonder whether lens design has reached its theoretical limits. Maybe one of the lens manufacturers will create a radical new design that comprises light weight, constant wide T-stop, long focal range, and relatively small form factor.

Leica actually has some relatively small and light cinema lenses (Summilux-C) on the way to market (or perhaps they are already here?). They are all primes, however. Of course, being Leica, they are also prohibitively expensive ($178,000 for a set of eight or about $22,500 per lens).