Epic and Scarlet release in 2010

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"i was ready to buy one what seems like AGES ago. now with everything else out or coming out soon (and from manufacturers that dont release 'dates' then reneg due to endless technical difficulties) i have lost interest completely."

I'm right there with you...looking really forward to the AF100 at this point, and I have ZERO brand loyalty;) I shoot the HVX, EX and 5/7d cameras, cause I'm budget impaired! I was really excited about the Scarlet for a long time...just kept buying into this new gear, and I'm more than satisfied. I honestly think and thank RED for giving the big boys the ideas with the R1. Obviously, everything has it's weaknesses...but even if you have to own two or three types, these days it can be done for less than 10k with accessories!

"IF it comes out, it will enter the market late to the game, and probably not be the hit it would have been ages ago. i cant see 7,000 units a month being sold; maybe a few thousand."

Again, I completely agree. Along side the newly announced Sony, the forthcoming Panny...hopefully round 2 of the DSLRs in 2011 will remedy some of their shortcomings, et al.

I'm just curious how profitable the R1 can have been to this point? How much more R&D can Jim and his primary ventures afford to absorb before these "Sellers" (Scarlett, Epic, etc) become reality? I'm rooting for him, BIG TIME!!! I will buy the Scarlett and I'll be REALLY happy with a 2/3. I'm just curious how many sunglasses...and a few watches and T-shirts it takes to fund an engineering project of this magnitude. He's got a helluva staff, and those fellas & ladies must be bustin their ass...nights, weekends, holidays...to get these to the market.

The R1 has gotten a ton of coverage in the Digital magazines over the last year or two, they're definitely known on the 'net...and the set, as many more films, docs, and shows have taken advantage of digital BECAUSE of RED and it's relative affordability...so I'm sure Jim feels the pressure like no other.

I'm definitely rooting for him and the crew...it can only do GREAT things for the rest of the industry if he proves successful in this venture, it's a monster of a gamble. He does have passion, so regardless of your "Brand of Choice", all of us...as passionate hobbyists and professionals alike should tip our hit to RED. Just MHO.

J
 
Chamber005 said:
Agreed. Who cares?

The Scarlet is going to be an overpriced relic by the time it's released.
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How will a 10,000 euro 2/3" cmos camera with a high quality intraframe format be a overpriced relic when the nearest alternative is a 2/3" cmos GOP compression camera by Sony at 20,000 euro and 1/3" CMOS solutions recording lower quality formats cost 10,000 euro? There are no plans from any big manufacturer to release something that even remotely competes with the Scarlet specs at the Scarlet price range.

It will be an overpriced relic to those who do not understand the advantages of the camera vs the competition. If an entry level camcorder or a 5,000 euro dSLR package covers all your imaging requirements, that's fine, but there are people who need more (or different!) and are prepared to pay for it.
 
I'm also still awaiting for Scarlet. I'm hoping the S35 arrives early next year, and that their promised Canon mount has true electronic controls- aperture control,at least. In the past year, due to a 7D and 5D purchase, I've invested in Canon L glass. As long as the glass is as usable as it is in my DSLRs, I'm all for Scarlet. I also think Canon WILL come out with an XL H2 with either an aps-c or a full frame sensor. They also are implementing a good codec on their new "prosumer" video cameras. I can see this 50Mbits 4:2:2 codec in this XL H2. But the Scarlet will be, at least the S35, with its 5k ,variable frame rates and RAW, a superior camera.
 
That's a good point SPZ...I'm heavily invested in Canon L glass as well. Definitely will need to take advantage of the Canon mount for the Scarlet. It will... or would be tough without electronic control, as none of mine have aperture rings like the old days!

J
 
Those cinema lenses that Barry linked earlier are gorgeous though. WOW...to be independently wealthy and in to this hobby...those are gorgeous. I've never gotten to play with a real set...Other than the stock Fujinon lenses around here, those are very, VERY cool!

I've gotta get out of Alaska some day and make my way to LA! LOL...Actually, the big boys (and girls) are finally filming a movie up here. The state has implemented a new tax break system for out of state production and film companies...hopefully opening the door for more projects.

In the meantime...Drew Barrymore is up here as the lead in a production (true story, took place several years ago) about the whales that were stuck, and (2 or the 3)subsequently helped to escape in the Ice Pack up north.

It would be cool to see a "real" film production, real cinema lenses, tripods, lighting, sound, monitoring...a TRUE video village, et al:)

...sorry to stray, back to the thread...

J
 
Otis Grapsas said:
How will a 10,000 euro 2/3" cmos camera with a high quality intraframe format be a overpriced relic when the nearest alternative is a 2/3" cmos GOP compression camera by Sony at 20,000 euro and 1/3" CMOS solutions recording lower quality formats cost 10,000 euro? There are no plans from any big manufacturer to release something that even remotely competes with the Scarlet specs at the Scarlet price range.

It will be an overpriced relic to those who do not understand the advantages of the camera vs the competition. If an entry level camcorder or a 5,000 euro dSLR package covers all your imaging requirements, that's fine, but there are people who need more (or different!) and are prepared to pay for it.
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I agree. Scarlet is going to be a spectacular high performance addition to the market for a relatively modest price. Personally for a general purpose all around practical motion picture camera I prefer the 2/3"-16mm sized formats to 35mm.
 
I am sure we would all love to buy a 3K uncompressed camera today for under $4k. Why is such a solution a secret?!

Seriously though, I think Zissou meant something entirely different. Look forward to a clarification.
 
Subhadip said:
I am sure we would all love to buy a 3K uncompressed camera today for under $4k. Why is such a solution a secret?!

Seriously though, I think Zissou meant something entirely different. Look forward to a clarification.
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First of all, he said "if not 3K res."
 
After 3K for $3K, $3k uncompressed for $3K? :) Seriously, nothing will ever be below $10,000 for digital cinema. Good sensors cost a lot, CCD is almost prohibitive at that price range, think of all the accessories, there are monitors, large batteries, chargers, expensive recording media, high development cost for low units, even the push pull connectors on a digital camera cost serious money because they are not the 2 cent USB type. A body price could be $3k, but that will probably require $7K of addons.

There is of course uncompressed HD from a normal camcorder. This will still cost about $10K for a total solution including the better prosumer cameras and it's not very practical because it needs a computer. And when we are discussing camcorders below $10k we are into very affordable sensors. Small size, very low resolution CCD and very small pixel rolling shutter CMOS are the only options. The image will be a lot lower than 8bit YCbCr in actual quality and the parameters will be cooked into the image which is certainly not comparable to the 10/12bit linear/log from digital cinema cameras.

When you remove the format limitations by capturing uncompresed, you might discover that the true camcorder quality is not that impressive. The compression artifacts are gone but the rolling shutter is still there, the dynamic range is the same and it still looks like the same camera when you distribute the material. In most modern cameras, you can't even defeat the noise reduction and preprocessing that reduces the image quality to make compression work better. The image texture on the uncompressed output might be quite similar to the compressed recordings.
 
stockfuel said:
Sumix have an uncompressed 2/3" camera for under $3k.... maybe this is what the guy meant?
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That's just a camera head. Not even a body price. You need a computer and storage capable of high data rates. In order to make it portable you need all the extras, batteries, monitor, high speed removable storage, etc. I wouldn't say Sumix is a digital cinema solution because they never spent time in integrating a system or even producing software that will produce acceptable quality and offer the preprocessing and image fine tuning a user expects from a digital cinema camera.
 
Regardless.... it could be what he meant.

He may have used one and got results from it. I know people who have. Let's not forget that you can use the laptop for storage, power and monitoring.
 
Zissou said:
i think the problem with REDs approach was TOO much information too soon into the development, the hype and the long wait have killed what would have been killer demand.

now there are much cheaper solutions to the same task, some even uncompressed, if not 3k res.
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Agreed. You don't know how long I've been saying this.
 
If Scarlet was a normal camera, it would be announced today and delivered by December or something like that. It is a marketing mistake, but the development process itself is quite reasonable for a project of this size. There are many parameters that delay these projects. I'm in Greece, a euro country. 40 days ago, euro was at an historical low vs USD. I would't place a significant order at 1.20 USD/EUR. Especially with the present state of development in competitive projects. Why would Red be in a hurry?

dSLRs come at a fraction of the cost, those who are satisfied with the quality of dSLRs wouldn't get a Scarlet even if it was available today.

Those who do need an intraframe digital cinema camera and appreciate the advantages it offers do not have an alternative either. 2/3" high resolution intraframe only comes at 30,000+ euro today.

Those who would buy a 10,000 euro digital cinema camera will probably get a camcorder, a high end 1/3" model or an entry level 1/2" model. The large majority will immediately sell it with a small loss when the 10,000 euro digital cinema cameras roll out.

In any case, there is no loss for the digital cinema companies that want to introduce affordable models.
 
Since I spent an afternoon with a friend and his Red 1 and have spent some pleasant hours grading .r3d recode clips in Redcine and now Redcine-X and learning raw workflow, I am hooked. If I could afford a Red One or had the work demand to pay for it I would have one. Even Scarlet is pushing the budget pretty hard for what will be a personal camera for creative play.
At this point though, nothing I can reasonably afford that shoots HD encoded video of any kind in any compressed long GOP codec is of much interest. High resolution digital raw is far beyond video as a creative acquisition medium, even if the end release format is video of some kind.
People may gripe about Red's delays now, but when Scarlet hits the market there will be plenty of demand trust me. As a complete camera system, compact, configurable, flexible, upgradable, with exceptional sensitivity, dynamic range, and resolution compared to anything near its price it will be very competitive.
 
Yes, grading uncompressed and choosing lenses fall into the same category. You feel both freer yet at the same time closer to the medium --- the analog of a painter choosing his brush or mixing pigment --- a delightful activity for a serious film artist. No moviemaker should be denied these activities.
 
I doubt if Jim and company are basing their workflows on any other aspect other than technical , and certainly not the exchange rate of the euro, which is overvalued anyway ! They have a flow chart with about 250 variables and most interlinked where any progress in a variable is dependant on resolving the other 249. I know because that´s how research works . Been there- done that. Patience from the peanut gallery will allow them to resolve the problems w/o dealing with the static.
 
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