E-mount FS700II 4K camcorder?

Colin. Again Im at odds :)

I agree the vid is terrible but..

Youtubers are coining it in (did you see the post from Buck on the EX1 forum) and influencial.

As for size and mass - well the quicker you can move between setups, well the more time you spend on the actual art of your film which is what is in front of the camera.. location lights and performance.

My F3+Recorder+Vlock is puts up walls - one of my ideas for getting an F5 was simply to have a smaller camera - I love my FS100 in the fact I can move it (yes I hate the codec!)

It is simple to add mass to a camera for solid shoulder shots.

Does this rig ease the creative process, would the DOP have chosen it given todays smaller cameras, probably not?
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Well seeing that it's marketed for Youtubers, I hope it's priced accordingly ;). 5K would be nice like the original FS100 price. But that wouldn't make any sense with the FS700 still at $7700 US.
 
let's wait for 12.september and see what happens...personally I think sony will deliver a quality product since all their previous cameras in the last 2 years made sense - sony fs700, f5, f55 and the new mirrorless a7s...they are on the right track and they are constantly pushing forward...
 
Hmm I wonder what the specs are. If it if is ff, has a base minimum broadcast codec, onboard 4k and raw output as well as doing everything the FS does I don't see how it will be anything but must have. Surely not.
 
U really think sony will shoot their F5/F55 foot? After they've stated the F5/55 is future proof for at least 5 years, do u really think they'll throw it under the bus? I'm not trying to be snide or sarcastic, I just think they're too business savy to do that.
 
No, extremely unlikely. Tis nothing more than idle speculation. Having said that, I've always felt the F5 is in a strange category - not having enough of an upgrade (global shutter etc) to change from the FS700, albeit with 7Q and that the F55 is somewhat overpriced in this day and age.
 
I would agree. The only fly in Sony's ointment is the BMD URSA and AJA CION, both with global shutters. As 4k cams, at around ~$10k, they may put market pressure on Sony to offer lower priced versions of their F series. As always, it's just conjecture. The latest round of 4k offerings all have some major drawback. From a purely technical standpoint, I have given serious consideration to an F5. But the cost would be a painful hit if they release a new cam at ~$10k. I love my FS7Q, but, would part with it for a global shutter, 14 stop DR and better form factor.
 
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I think the video was actually made by Canon to sabotage Sony :kali:

Poor lighting, bad highlights (probably from poor lighting and not the camera), overly saturated color and obviously marketed towards young, Gen-Y enthusiasts.
 
I'd feel more confident if the promo reflected an evolution instead of an introduction. I got the feeling "entry level" but I guess the idea is for us fs700ers is to evolve into an f5 or 55. Give me 14 stops, 120 fps, RAW 10/12 bit compressed internal recording and I'll be happy. Oh and cleaner noise, especially in HFR.
 
Marino215 said:
I'd feel more confident if the promo reflected an evolution instead of a introduction. I got the feeling "entry level" but I guess the idea is for us fs700ers is to evolve into an f5 or 55. Give me 14 stops, 120 fps, RAW 10/12 bit compressed internal recording and I'll be happy. Oh and cleaner noise, especially in HFR.
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I'm saving for an F5 for sure, especially since there's the promise of Pro-Res. Probably my next camera. I do want to see what Canon comes out with though. Next NAB is only a little over 6 months away (crazy how fast this years gone), by then we will see if the F5 is safe or not and my FS7Q will last till then at least.
 
gene_can_sing said:
I'm saving for an F5 for sure, especially since there's the promise of Pro-Res. Probably my next camera. I do want to see what Canon comes out with though. Next NAB is only a little over 6 months away (crazy how fast this years gone), by then we will see if the F5 is safe or not and my FS7Q will last till then at least.
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At the moment it seems like the most logical choice, the f5 isn't going anywhere and I have a feeling with in a year and a half we'll starting hearing the drum beat for 6k. The f6 6k, Sounds about right. This XDCAM may be a step up from what were use to but how much of a step? Even if it matches the f5. I bet it won't do RAW, pretty sure it won't do ProRes either. (without recorder) I've seen an f55 go for $23000 and recently an f5 for $12k something with chaper evf included. Add the R5 what more could we ask for? Then I figure I could just hold on a minute longer with the fs700 and just go for the 6k camera when its the next "new thing" Hell we already have RAW, 4k HFR 10/12 bit, not exactly sure better 4k can be had in this price range. Features yes, image maybe just a little. Is it worth it for just a "tic" when in all actually what we're really interested in is the "toc"?
 
A shoulder mount design is always welcome. It's the best design for video cameras, period. If it camera also happens to be light weight and small, so much the better. This camera appears to be a shoulder mount, so it's already better ergonomic-wise than the brick FS100/700. The stability offered by a shoulder is unmatched. I can't wait to see what the right side looks like, with the grip handle. Will it be like the FS700? Or like a C300? It'd be sweet if it were on a bracket, so you could change the length and angle to your liking.

And for those who do have an FS700, I'm afraid that this camera - if the specs are right - may reduce your cameras to the same fate the F3s experienced when the F5/55s came out. The F3s, with an external recorder, are still very capable cameras, but they lost ground to the F5/55, no matter how good they are. There's lots of F3s to be had on Ebay for way less than their original price.
It's hard to change a producer's mind when they have their sights set on a particular camera set-up, no matter what you tell them.

I still have E and A mount lenses from my FS100 days, so this is an intriguing camera. And the price of XQD cards seems very reasonable after all the coin I shelled out for my SxS cards.
 
morgan_moore said:
Colin. Again Im at odds :)

I agree the vid is terrible but..

Youtubers are coining it in (did you see the post from Buck on the EX1 forum) and influencial.

As for size and mass - well the quicker you can move between setups, well the more time you spend on the actual art of your film which is what is in front of the camera.. location lights and performance.

My F3+Recorder+Vlock is puts up walls - one of my ideas for getting an F5 was simply to have a smaller camera - I love my FS100 in the fact I can move it (yes I hate the codec!)

It is simple to add mass to a camera for solid shoulder shots.

Does this rig ease the creative process, would the DOP have chosen it given todays smaller cameras, probably not?
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I'm always told that Youtubers are 'coining it' but I see little evidence of that reflected in the quality of their work which makes me suspect that a few, very very few, are themselves making an okay living from it but not enough to pay for decent crew and equipment. Certainly none of the guys in the video look like they're the head of any major production company.

In fact I was reading an article in an industry mag where 'popular video website' video jug said that they're set to expand their output with 'entertainment' films with budgets of around £400 per video. That's basically what being a 'YouTuber' means - £400 a video. Perfectly fine if it's just you and a camera and you can knock out a couple of videos a week. Pretty terrible if there's more than one of you or you can't producer work at that sort of rate.

The people that are making money from YouTube are the film makers: those making brand films for big brands - i.e. basically traditional commercials. For these you need to deliver quality and 'YouTuber' quality won't cut it. That's the issue with this marketing campaign. No one wants to be known as a 'YouTuber'.

As regards the weight of the camera - again it depends upon how you work. If you make skateboarding videos, weight is probably more important (in terms of the end product) than image quality. If you make commercials or dramas, weight is less of an issue than image quality. For one thing you move faster between set ups because you have a team behind you. The Alexa/Amira may be too heavy for the way you work, but it's perfectly fine (often preferable) for many others.
 
morgan_moore said:
Colin. Again Im at odds :)

As for size and mass - well the quicker you can move between setups, well the more time you spend on the actual art of your film which is what is in front of the camera.. location lights and performance.

My F3+Recorder+Vlock is puts up walls - one of my ideas for getting an F5 was simply to have a smaller camera - I love my FS100 in the fact I can move it (yes I hate the codec!)

It is simple to add mass to a camera for solid shoulder shots.

Does this rig ease the creative process, would the DOP have chosen it given todays smaller cameras, probably not?

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I 100% agree with Morgan on this point. Theoretically, if you have the exact same camera specs, one that is 17 lbs and the other at 4 lbs, there is ZERO advantage to the 17 lbs camera, in fact, a huge disadvantage as it requires more support (which comes at a huge cost) and time to move around. Even Arri has picked up on that with the Amira and the 2 piece Alexa-M to lighten the weight.

There's a reason why so many films are now shot handheld, it's because the old 35mm cameras were way to heavy to hold. I'm not saying go DSLR light, but yeah... a camera like the BMC Ursa at 16 lbs... No thanks, I'll pass.

I like that the F55 is at 4.8 lbs body and it's a pro-level camera. Sony needs to keep the cameras light because it's easy to add weight to a camera, but impossible to take it away.
 
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Gene and Colin - strange that you have not left the board! Basically you both have a great 4k camera don't you - what more Is needed! I've paid minimal attention to stills gear for five years. Obviously it is nice to chat but I don't get the creeping desire to upgrade?- maybe 4kraw is just too painful or the 07q combo just a bit wonky?

Yep you tuber is not an aspiration I agree - maybe it's generational! I do look forward to costs coming down so gear is not a barrier (like stills)

As for mass - well crew costs so every little strip back saves cash/time and the camera head defines the mass of all else - cranes etc

The feature I'm on just lugging the bmc4k is enough! (With all the attendant claptrap)
 
vanvideo said:
A shoulder mount design is always welcome. It's the best design for video cameras, period. If it camera also happens to be light weight and small, so much the better. This camera appears to be a shoulder mount, so it's already better ergonomic-wise than the brick FS100/700. The stability offered by a shoulder is unmatched. I can't wait to see what the right side looks like, with the grip handle. Will it be like the FS700? Or like a C300? It'd be sweet if it were on a bracket, so you could change the length and angle to your liking.

And for those who do have an FS700, I'm afraid that this camera - if the specs are right - may reduce your cameras to the same fate the F3s experienced when the F5/55s came out. The F3s, with an external recorder, are still very capable cameras, but they lost ground to the F5/55, no matter how good they are. There's lots of F3s to be had on Ebay for way less than their original price.
It's hard to change a producer's mind when they have their sights set on a particular camera set-up, no matter what you tell them.

I still have E and A mount lenses from my FS100 days, so this is an intriguing camera. And the price of XQD cards seems very reasonable after all the coin I shelled out for my SxS cards.
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Am I missing something? The f3 still very much used and yes a lot cheaper on eBay. One of the reasons why the f3 is so cheap now because it can't shoot 4k. Something the fs700 can do and does it very well, even scaled to 1080 is nice. My point was I don't know how much better another s35 camcorder (in that price range) can offer a better image worth original fs700 owners to make the switch. My guess it's a documentary camera. Great codecs, low light and comfortable on the shoulder. That's certainly worth it for any new comers but for us already im not convinced yet it might be worth shelling out more money for. It doesn't do anything more than the fs700 perhaps a stop or two better in some areas than others. I have a 4k camera, decent lowlight, HFR 10/12 bit great 1080 ProRes etc. I won't be selling mine anytime soon, I'm not convinced others will too right away. So I'm not sure about your theory making the fs700 useless with newer offerings. It's not till 6k takes control your theory may come true.
 
morgan_moore said:
Gene and Colin - Obviously it is nice to chat but I don't get the creeping desire to upgrade?- maybe 4kraw is just too painful or the 07q combo just a bit wonky?
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I do love the image of the 7Q as it's a fantastic piece of kit and a great monitor, but it would be nice to get away from a recorder. So far, no major problems with the 7Q, but I do have to power cycle it fairly regularly which is a bit un-nerving. I guess I just have this creeping fear of a major 7Q failure on a shoot which is why I'm thinking of the F5

For example, I'm DP on a bigger shoot for the Lifetime Channel in a few weeks. The director also has an FS700 (no 7Q), but I am going to suggest renting an extra 7Q for piece of mind. We probably won't even use the extra FS700 or 7Q, but yeah, I do get worried a bit because the 7Q can act up here and there, but that's the nature of recorders.
 
morgan_moore said:
It looks to me to be a 700 replacement - I guess without raw (to protect the 5/55) - It looks 'Nxcam' to me because it looks to be cheap plastic.

I expect FS700 frame-rates, compressed onboard only (up to 4k and maybe only 2k above 60FPS) and deletion of the 700, whose raw will be a historical quirk and a price to match the C300 or pop between the C300 and FS700.

I also expect a bit of a lack of connectivity (genlock in, sdi out(?)) another move to protect 'pro' 5/55

But that is all a total guess :)
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I hope you're wrong about the removal of raw. Four or so cameras from BMD, one from AJA, one from Digital Bolex, one from Apertus, and the raw hack for the 5D3 all show that raw is possible in lower-price cameras. The Ursa and Cion, in particular, seem to have worthy first-step professional form factors, and both are priced well below the F5. The weakest link in both is the CMV12000 sensor, which nonetheless has a global shutter.
 
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I spoke to my supplier today who's been at Sony all week preparing for IBC. He said that suggestions that this camera is a successor to the FS700 is way off the mark In fact Sony were at pains to say it was neither a successor nor a replacement for the FS700.
 
Tzedekh said:
I hope you're wrong about the removal of raw. Four or so cameras from BMD, one from AJA, one from Digital Bolex, one from Apertus, and the raw hack for the 5D3 all show that raw is possible in lower-price cameras. The Ursa and Cion, in particular, seem to have worthy first-step professional form factors, and both are priced well below the F5. The weakest link in both is the CMV12000 sensor, which nonetheless has a global shutter.
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Like I said earlier, the FS700/Sony aren't working the same angle as BMD/AJA/DigiBolex. Sure, they have RAW in the FS700, but their whole angle is frame rates, SDI, XLR, run n gun... it's sort of a hybrid production/"videographer" camera. They aren't advertising bit-rates, dynamic range, and codecs like ProRes. Their target market isn't looking for that.
 
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