Too true. The price drop on the Epic and the jpeg showing 20 stops of dr were a pretty obvious response to the f5/f55. I own an epic and shoot jobs on it every week but have already put a deposit down on an F55. Once I see some more footage examples I'll make that decision but sony has the potential to take market share away from Red and possibly even Alexa.
F55: Dragon Sensor 20 stops
- Thread starter lasikdenver
- Start date
Too true. The price drop on the Epic and the jpeg showing 20 stops of dr were a pretty obvious response to the f5/f55. I own an epic and shoot jobs on it every week but have already put a deposit down on an F55. Once I see some more footage examples I'll make that decision but sony has the potential to take market share away from Red and possibly even Alexa.
Yep, Red's tactics are way too transparent. It's pretty lame TBH. I actually see the F5 with raw recorder as direct competition for the Epic and the F55 with raw recorder as competition for the Alexa.
I really dont like when people always assume these companies are doing "tactics" like this. You need to understand that the dragon sensor was in development ever since the first Epic was finished. Sony didn't even have a sensor bough/made yet for the F55 at that time.
There is no tactics, when products come out one after another like this, its simply because the timing aligns sometimes. These are not "answers" to each other. they are just always being developed and just so happen to be released around the same time. It takes YEARS for these cameras to be developed, they dont spit these out in a few weeks. They cannot possibly know when the other one will be making an "answer" camera.
These aren't 2 pizza shops across from each other, these are heavy camera manufacturers, they dont operate by "answering back" magically within a month with something new. It's just coincidence that they markets are moving forward thats all.
I agree with much of what you say in terms of the long development time preventing a perfectly reactionary scenario. The difference I have seen over the past few years is that RED likes to announce a new technology the day they get a lab demo up and running. It gets everyone very excited and is generally presented in a very optimistic way (ie RED ONE is 4k? But not really....3k at best). This is a genuine tactic that stalls purchase decisions and buys them more time to develop the technology. Sony did not make the new F cameras known to the public until they already had near production level samples shooting footage. The sensor itself was likely locked down a year ago - but we heard nothing of it until the release was imminent. Sony has tactics like anyone else, they just seem far more conservative in my opinion. When my living counts on it, I kinda like conservative.
Viddovation
Veteran
While you're correct that products tend to be in development prior to the public announcements, I would have to agree with the former poster that the choice to announce products not yet shipping is indeed a "tactic." It's a tactic that every manufacturer is guilty of, including Sony.
The Dragon announcement may keep some people from spending $40k on an F55, wheras, if RED didn't pre-announce the coming hardware, some people might buy alternate systems, and be less inclined to spend money on the RED Dragon when released.
S. Matthews
Well-known member
no CMOS camera fully resolves it's resolutions container size, so every time people say it's not 4k is like saying every 1080 camera is not 1080. The container size is one thing measured resolution is a whole other thing.
I think the DR post was red trying to meet their deadline where they said dragon upgrades might begin before 2013, so right on new years they gave us a taste of the sensor to appease those who might complain. Now this is just my assumption but the reality like any of these major companies is only they know the motivations behind their actions.
The F5 and F55 are great camera's and I can't wait to try them out, I feel sorry for those who restrict their camera choices due to personal issues. Now that does not include those who had real world bad experiences with a given company and after being burned are hesitant to go back, that is more than understandable.
Have a good one! and stay passionate!
edit: most definitely worked great for them with the timing of the F5/F55, though the news was a while ago on that front and I would agree that the date of the price drop was timed for the Sony release. but to assume anything makes an....
I think the DR post was red trying to meet their deadline where they said dragon upgrades might begin before 2013, so right on new years they gave us a taste of the sensor to appease those who might complain. Now this is just my assumption but the reality like any of these major companies is only they know the motivations behind their actions.
The F5 and F55 are great camera's and I can't wait to try them out, I feel sorry for those who restrict their camera choices due to personal issues. Now that does not include those who had real world bad experiences with a given company and after being burned are hesitant to go back, that is more than understandable.
Have a good one! and stay passionate!
edit: most definitely worked great for them with the timing of the F5/F55, though the news was a while ago on that front and I would agree that the date of the price drop was timed for the Sony release. but to assume anything makes an....
Duke M.
Veteran
While some things may have been in development, others like the 2/3" Scarlet, had several announcements and were never developed. From the sound of Jim's later posts it seems he had known they weren't going to develop it for a long time. Some of the rah-rah announcements of the Scarlet were before Canon announcements. Smoke and mirrors.
I don't know if it hurt more than it helped. Jim ended up announcing he was dropping the bottom end/prosumer market. He said he was only going to support 'professionals'. That pissed off a lot of people and I don't know where he things professionals come from. Often I think they were prosumers who learned and gained experience.
I don't think you can say it wasn't a tactic to make the announcements. It was repeated way too many times to be a coincidence.
Duke M.
Veteran
That's not quite true. Three chip cameras and single chip cameras with enough photo sites to debayer can still resolve to the full container size.
S. Matthews
Well-known member
I thought it was something like "red is for professionals and those who aspire to be professionals" or something, I understand how it was like a slap in the face to many people considering it happened around the time scarlet 2/3" was cancelled. but I would not be surprised that they knew about the slew of lower end cameras that would show up soon and scarlet 2/3" would be preforming below reds standards and still be too expensive compared to the new cameras, with media and accessories. it's unfortunate the camera was cancelled and in such a way but that is life just gotta move on.
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S. Matthews
Well-known member
are there three chip cmos sensors?
though if the camera sensor resolution is higher than the container size yes it should be able to fully resolve it but if I'm not mistaken even then sometimes it does not fully resolve the container size.
All I'm saying is singling out red for this is unusual as we should do it with a great many cameras that do not have oversampled sensors as well and even then... I guess I should have just pointed out it's a non issue, red may hype 4k and 1080 sucks and all that but that is their job to market their product our job is to pick what we want to use for a given job and get the most of it.
edit: the scarlet has a larger sensor than you use but I don't think you get a fully resolved 4k, so you would have to be using some tricks that would sacrifice in other areas if you were to over sample a larger sensor... you could use an external recorder and perhaps get a full 1080. perhaps the accurate (or closest to) statement would be no single sensor can fully resolve it's native resolution, without serious side effects like moire and aliasing.... though that could be wrong too
though if the camera sensor resolution is higher than the container size yes it should be able to fully resolve it but if I'm not mistaken even then sometimes it does not fully resolve the container size.
All I'm saying is singling out red for this is unusual as we should do it with a great many cameras that do not have oversampled sensors as well and even then... I guess I should have just pointed out it's a non issue, red may hype 4k and 1080 sucks and all that but that is their job to market their product our job is to pick what we want to use for a given job and get the most of it.
edit: the scarlet has a larger sensor than you use but I don't think you get a fully resolved 4k, so you would have to be using some tricks that would sacrifice in other areas if you were to over sample a larger sensor... you could use an external recorder and perhaps get a full 1080. perhaps the accurate (or closest to) statement would be no single sensor can fully resolve it's native resolution, without serious side effects like moire and aliasing.... though that could be wrong too
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S. Matthews
Well-known member
Ah didn't know that should have been more specific with my worlds and just said single chip cameras, as I know three chip cameras can resolve their container size.... I think... at least far better to the point where it doesn't matter... like 98%, though I don't know... lol
This has been my vocal complaint from the beginning of the introduction of 4k. I have called it Feaux-K up until the the F65 which is a real 4k camera. A bayer masked sensor with 4,000ish pixels across is simply not a 4k sensor because only half of the them are green and a quarter each of red and blue. It is not a bad or evil scheme - but it has been presented in a way that make it sound way better than it is. We don't call an 3CCD HD sensor 6k do we? At the end of the day meaningful resolution is what matters if I am comparing detail capturing capability. The is an MTF measurement that takes all aspects of the signal path into account.
I will add to that - I have never seen resolution as the mountain to climb. I am more swayed by color, DR, and the unmeasurable "look" of a camera. There is a reason ARRI has sold 4,000+ Alexas even though it has a paltry 2.5k sensor. It's an awesome looking camera.
I will add to that - I have never seen resolution as the mountain to climb. I am more swayed by color, DR, and the unmeasurable "look" of a camera. There is a reason ARRI has sold 4,000+ Alexas even though it has a paltry 2.5k sensor. It's an awesome looking camera.
S. Matthews
Well-known member
real 4k is one of those things though like true HD that bother me, it's either a measurement of what the camera resolves or the container it shoots in(though the nomenclature may be dumb it is what it is), if only camera manufacturers were more specific it would be the non issue it is.
Though I guess it's only fair for the flack to come back at red for their aggressive marketing campaigns.
as far as 4k measured resolution, 5k bayer works, sony's method could very well work(I have not seen a zone plate or res chart shot by the F65 yet) but from the sounds of it it should resolve a perfect 4k.
I agree that DR color reproduction are important but so is resolution, but we each have our own standards and that is fine because as of right now we are all delivering for the most part to the same sized container it's all about what you put in it and if you know what you are doing any of the current high end and mid range camera's are more than enough to get the job done.
Though I guess it's only fair for the flack to come back at red for their aggressive marketing campaigns.
as far as 4k measured resolution, 5k bayer works, sony's method could very well work(I have not seen a zone plate or res chart shot by the F65 yet) but from the sounds of it it should resolve a perfect 4k.
I agree that DR color reproduction are important but so is resolution, but we each have our own standards and that is fine because as of right now we are all delivering for the most part to the same sized container it's all about what you put in it and if you know what you are doing any of the current high end and mid range camera's are more than enough to get the job done.
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Kolor-Pikker
Well-known member
Another problem is the software. The resolving power of a camera is actually quite tied to how the data is processed. Moving over to photography, I've recently upgraded my favorite Raw converter, Capture One, to ver. 7 and now it quite literally resolves details a pixel in width from my 5D2 stills.
I've seen plenty of stills from the Epic at 5k, but no matter how I attempted to work them cine-x, they didn't have the same micro-detail; I'm pretty sure they were shot in focus and at a proper aperture.
I'm pretty sure that the Epic has similar resolution to a lot of still cameras out there, but it never seems as sharp when you look close up, RED seems to be brute-forcing it's way to higher resolution, without getting pixel-level detail up.
Has anyone at all seen a RED debayer that's razor sharp at pixel level? I'd like to. Because I can crop one of my photos to the same resolution and aspect ratio, and it'll look a lot sharper.
I've seen plenty of stills from the Epic at 5k, but no matter how I attempted to work them cine-x, they didn't have the same micro-detail; I'm pretty sure they were shot in focus and at a proper aperture.
I'm pretty sure that the Epic has similar resolution to a lot of still cameras out there, but it never seems as sharp when you look close up, RED seems to be brute-forcing it's way to higher resolution, without getting pixel-level detail up.
Has anyone at all seen a RED debayer that's razor sharp at pixel level? I'd like to. Because I can crop one of my photos to the same resolution and aspect ratio, and it'll look a lot sharper.
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S. Matthews
Well-known member
It's the OLPF for motion that causes the loss in sharpness, makes it much different to still images, as with Still's moire and aliasing is not as big of an issue and much easier to remove.
Though I've seen plenty of sharp Epic images (not to take away from it's IQ for motion it's wonderful) none are gonna blow away a phase one or even the 5dMK3, though who knows I could be proven wrong, wouldn't be the first time!
edit: plus Red does not sharpen in camera, and the sharpening in cine-x is not great, I normally use a combination of post sharpening and if done correctly can result in a fairly sharp image, but still not have the micro detail of higher end still camera's... but once again I could be horribly wrong.
Though I've seen plenty of sharp Epic images (not to take away from it's IQ for motion it's wonderful) none are gonna blow away a phase one or even the 5dMK3, though who knows I could be proven wrong, wouldn't be the first time!
edit: plus Red does not sharpen in camera, and the sharpening in cine-x is not great, I normally use a combination of post sharpening and if done correctly can result in a fairly sharp image, but still not have the micro detail of higher end still camera's... but once again I could be horribly wrong.
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Kolor-Pikker
Well-known member
Moire and aliaising are almost never a problem in any modern dSLR, and in the super rare case that it does crop up (bird feathers close up, metal lattice/railings far away) it's easy enough to remove, C17 has the facilities to do that in any case.
Modern Raw converters can do some pretty crazy things, check out how it can recover a shot 2 stops over exposed:
Yeah, the subject matter sucks, but that's not the point. All the detail where there was previously white was recovered. In just the previous version I wouldn't have been able to do that.
S. Matthews
Well-known member
Very nice, is that from the 5d?
Kolor-Pikker
Well-known member
Yep, 5D mk2, a camera that supposedly has only around 12.5 stops DR. I have no idea what they did, but I went back through a lot of photos and simply switching to the new rendering method threw an extra stop of DR on all my photos.