F55: Dragon Sensor 20 stops

yoclay said:
Anyone who shoots FF or cares about it is not a real cinematographer?

Well, personally speaking I prefer the image from the Alexa as well, but don't you think you are overstating things a little?
Real men don't eat quiche, either, right? I guess Shane Hurlbut is not a real cinematographer? Come on, the tools are changing. Don't you think the quality is going to improve beyond the 1DC (which APS-H) into larger FF eventually? It's gonna happen, we all know it. That's just the pace of change. Why limit yourself ?

Yes, I prefer the Alexa over the RED. However, this is in large part because it holds values in the highlights so much better and has much nicer roll-off.The reason to care that RED moves towards greater dynamic range is that this bodes much better for that part of the spectrum. If they can get 10 stops above middle grey (which is what that chart shows), rather than the current 5 above and 7 below, that will make a big difference.

After that as I said, I see it as unwise investing in any camera that comes onto the market right now (as your man Mr. Deakins has stated himself), because cameras are changing so quickly and dropping in price so much more quickly.

Glass on the other hand is here to stay.
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Not to nitpick, but the Canon 1D C actually is a FF sensor.
 
FilmDude said:
Eh I guess my point is, I dont care about FF and anyone who is truly a real cinematographer will not care about the FF either. No lenses were made for it, and its not a standard at all in cinema. You learn what an S35mm image is or an anamorphic image is, lens wise and you stick to it.

You're never going to see the cinema world shift from S35 to FF... there's just no point. You want wider option, then get a wider lens... Get a freaking tokina 11-16 cine, or any of the UP super wide end lenses. There is no gain in the real cinematic world for FF... no point to even worry about it. Only people who will want it is the RED band wagon. But for the real guys shooting your favorite TV shows and Movies and commercials... I think S35 is going to remain the stay.

I think 6K is ridiculous and a waste of data at this point in time. Maybe for IMAX use for blowups yes, but other than that... there is just too much hype in the "K" world. I think thats all done with now, and RED is just trying to keep with its ridiculousness.

RED = "we have more K!" and "We have a bigger sensor"

Arri = "we build the cameras that DP's want to use and sensors that look beautiful" and "we dont give a s*%t about resolution because we know in the theater you only resolve about 3K max because of MATH"

I dont care about all this 6 k 8k 48K ... I'm not the Hubble telescope, I dont care to see the little hairs in between the pores in the beautiful actress face... I care about a beautiful image, one that can be seen.

I've been watching a bunch of Alexa features in the theaters lately (which by me are all either 2K or 4K projectors... most likely 2K) and the images are quite stunning. But also because of theater size and where you'd sit, you're just never going to be able to resolve all that detail in a theater (never the less on a freaking tv set) so why bother??

It's an age old fight of the megapixels, but its just annoying now. I do like that they gained dynamic range, but yet again they went overboard with it. It's all just fluff. Stuff that the human eye can't see. So who cares? apart from some of the special situations where extreme dynamic range can be used to protect highlights... who the heck cares about 20 stops?? No projector can even show that many stops, not even close to it. RED almost burnt down their testing room trying to get enough light through their test chart just to show 20 stops....

Its all "hey mine is bigger than yours" argument. It's like cars now, you may have a huge engine that puts out 8930495830945 horse power, but if you can't get that through the tires and to the road, it doesn't matter at all. Its just for show.
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I guess all those guys like Christopher Nolan who shoot their movies on 65mm must be idiots then? Oh, and Sony who have just jumped into 4k with all guns blazing. Oh, and the BBC and NHK and JVC... ...you get the idea...
 
FilmDude said:
Eh I guess my point is, I dont care about FF and anyone who is truly a real cinematographer will not care about the FF either. No lenses were made for it, and its not a standard at all in cinema. You learn what an S35mm image is or an anamorphic image is, lens wise and you stick to it.

You're never going to see the cinema world shift from S35 to FF... there's just no point...
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You know what Panavision has been developing, don't you?
 
bill totolo said:
You know what Panavision has been developing, don't you?
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To which I'd say, if they are making a FF system, they have the means and the motivation to make it a complete system. Lenses, aks, etc. Everything it takes to make the package and job 100% pro, the way generations of top-end DPs are used to working. I say "great" if they can do that.

The rest of us though, if Red or whoever goes down that FF path, we're reduced to the few PL lenses that cover, cobbling together a package of lenses that work for a given job. And for what? More light sensitivity? We're already at 800, almost industry wide, pushing 1600. 3 years from now we'll be at 1600 pushing 3200 dead clean. More shallow DOF? I certainly don't need that, and if I ever do, I can rent some speeds, Master Primes, or S5s.

I'm just not sure what problem FF sensors solve? But I can think of a couple problems that arise.
 
Actually we are at 2000asa as of Feb (Sony F5) :D

Got to love those gimmicks; there will always be one, always. Images are made with whatever works for that story and the guys making it a reality.
 
Jarred Land said:
Global Shutter creates foundational problems in other aspects of sensor design.... as much as everyone thinks they want a global shutter they really just want the side-effects. We took things to a whole different level.
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What foundational problems does global shutter create? Main one I can think of are smaller photosites and hence less overall light sensitivity. Any others?
 
Originally Posted by Jarred Land - Global Shutter creates foundational problems in other aspects of sensor design.... as much as everyone thinks they want a global shutter they really just want the side-effects. We took things to a whole different level.
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That's code for "Our sensors are so ridiculously packed with photo sites that the images were already noisy that we just couldn't make a global shutter, so we decided to convince the fanbois that they don't want a global shutter instead." :thumbsup:

Just want the side-effects of no motion distortion? LLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Pull the other one.
 
Prendi said:
You just went a step too far. I drink beer, watch football and yeah, I enjoy a slice of quiche. There, I said it.
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Brofist! I live next to a bakery where they make some real fine quiche.

As to 20 stops... I guess it's cool if one enjoys shooting out of tunnels a lot, but for 90% of scenes the histogram is going to be within the middle third of the graph, so that's a lot of bits going to waste. I hope they make a limited dynamic range mode that truncates the shadow noise.
 
yoclay said:
asks for an email and password, nothing attached.
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Here are a few selected quotes:
" Between April and August 2013. It will be a 70mm sensor camera with new opticals Primo II. "

"Yes, it's true. I saw one of the new Primo lens in Panavision Paris. Panavision told about their new camera at "camerimage" in Poland. And personally, Patrick Leplat (one of the head manager in Panavision Paris) told me about a 70mm digital camera. "

If you care to read through these and see the original authors you can find these under the Panavision Professional Group on LinkedIn .
 
That's really exciting stuff. We've had 70mm digital in the Phantom65 for a while now, but, much like most of the big 70mm projects shot recently (Dark Knight Rises, The Master) people have been mostly limited to having modified (and generally ancient) medium-format stills lenses to shoot with.

A complete 70mm camera/lens system would be terrific.
 
I certainly would not expect Panavision to sit around and do nothing while Epic, Alexa and F65 take over their space. I was aware something was in development but had not heard any chatter until your post. Thanks, Bill

Ned
 
nsoltz said:
I certainly would not expect Panavision to sit around and do nothing while Epic, Alexa and F65 take over their space. I was aware something was in development but had not heard any chatter until your post. Thanks, Bill

Ned
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I'd hate for you to take it as Gospel Ned, but I'm as excited for new tools from Panavision as anyone else.
 
Doctor Wu said:
But I don't think we'll see a production Epic Dragon until summer of '13.
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At the earliest, remember when the Epic/Scarlet came out two years later than originally projected. Even for things they claim will be sent to everyone before the month is out wind up not getting sent for several months.
 
barshki said:
At the earliest, remember when the Epic/Scarlet came out two years later than originally projected. Even for things they claim will be sent to everyone before the month is out wind up not getting sent for several months.
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People are being a little unfair to Red; times have changed. They are maturing as a company and their PR strategy will reflect that and so will their production schedules. I don't think we'll see the long delays there have been in the past, after all they have their own dedicated factory now.
 
Not to say they can't change but I've seen no indication so far that they can ever deliver something when they say they will. All that to say simply that people should keep expectations low as far as timelines.

They should take a page from Apple and just not say anything until it's ready to roll out the door.

EDIT: Also Jannard's forums signature, "Everything in life changes, including our camera specs and release dates."
 
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