F55: Dragon Sensor 20 stops

Glad I didn't throw down deposit on F55 just yet.

Things are getting interesting.

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Jared said:
...so we had to beef up the entire infrastructure of EPIC.

This is likely to affect the price of the upgrade a bit..
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...and for the record I did say that the "$6000" upgrade would never see the light of day and speculated that the "Dragon update" would end up requiring more internal guts to support it and hence reflect a different price. So for those who hail "upgrade programs"...
 
Gotta say, that's impressive. 6k, meh. 18 stops DR, wow!

Still, another $10k (roughly) to upgrade a $19k camera...

And the global shutter excuse is just laughable.

FYI, the day they release Dragon, you will no longer be able to buy the old Epic at $19k. That's what I understood from Jim's post.
 
You have to hand it to RED. They keep pushing, raising the bar, and we all benefit. I wonder what those "battle tested" Scarlets are going to be going for.
 
lasikdenver said:
Red just announced for the New Year that the performance of the Dragon sensor is 20 stops!
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Considering Jim's prior pronouncements on prior RED cameras there may be a significant difference between claimed DR and actual usable DR. The Epic and Scarlet are just not good low light performers. When you add more photo sights the physics pushes towards less light gathering ability and HDR just causes ghosting with motion.

To me that just opens a big healthy dose of 'wait and see', especially as he apparently sees the need to push back against the F55.

Doesn't this make all those recently purchased Epic's obsolete?
 
my out look on Dragon.

I am a RED Scarlet-X owner, like my little camera. Problem is... its a little too little. Which makes it want to blast a Jet engine inside it just to keep it from catching fire... I would have LOVED to see a redesign of the body as a whole. Made bigger, more ergonomic for actual cinematographers to use.

Putting all that power and sensor and ASIC and such inside the same small box body is not a smart way to design a "better" camera. I'm most likely sticking with RED for now, but I don't think these guys at RED know how to design for the real cinematographers out there. They are more computer geek DP's who dont care how they get their camera, even if its just a small box with a hole in it....

That's not me, I like Alexa and F55 for their USABLE body size. My RED is very small little brick, but that brick wastes power and noise simply because its small. Make it 20% or more larger and you can reduce the amount of power the fan needs. The bigger the body, the bigger the heat sink making it a lot cooler running and you dont have to have the damn JET fan on it to shoot.

If Dragon sensor came inside the body of the F55... I'd jump all over that... But for me im already invested in RED, but I dont know for how long. Only time will tell. I am one of those who say 20 stops is kind of a waste. You're eye just can't even seem that to begin with. Projectors can only do about max 8 stops, your eye can see only 7 stops at a time before adjusting the pupal...

I think the camera will actually have a USABLE 16-17 stops of range which is more than enough to play with in RAW. Thats nice to have in post workflows to protect highlights. But I would have rather seen just 14-15 stops instead of 20... I would rather see the noise level drop, the base iso raise, and the body to get more ergonomic.

This is why I call them computer geek DP's they dont care thats its just a box... but I do. It's a camera for me, I want it to feel like a camera when I'm trying to use it. Not a computer.
 
^
lower noise is a large part of what allows a sensor to capture greater DR. So I don't think you need to worry on that front.

Personally I don't mind Epic's shape - it's designed to be customised, and that flexibility is a boon IMO, the fan noise is a problem though, and if a larger body would alleviate that issue, then I'd be all for it.
 
Great news, but it's not 20 stops. Lets wait till we see a new chart shot with all the processing and calibration added in ok? This whole hype fest of 20 stops of usable DR is downright annoying.

F55 is just fine and will be just fine. Epic with Dragon isn't going to destroy it by any means. Count on ARRI having their own answer to Dragon in time.

Around and around we go :) I for one look forward to the day where sensors get so darn good across the board (if we're not there already!) that what it really will come to on boards like this is discussion of things that really make a huge difference between all the cams out there, COLOR and overall image rendering. 16 stops for Dragon, 18, whatever...there's still bound to be some who don't like the way the image looks compared to something like an ALEXA or those who still prefer film until they can't develop it.
 
I own a Scarlet, but like any wise fool, I'm not on board with a trade-in to the Epic Dragon until I can see some empirical testing. So yeah. Can't wait to see f55 footage compared with the Epic Dragon's! Great choices ahead (it only were not so dang expensive)! But I don't think we'll see a production Epic Dragon until summer of '13.
 
yep, and the RED ONE was 4k (2.5k at best, IMHO)? Ready for prime time (continuous firmware updates that changed everything including color science for 2 years!)? Puh-leeeez! They have pushed the hype envelope so severely since the beginning of the company, I wouldn't even crack a smile until I have seen it, used it, kicked it, and abused it. I will say, RED has accomplished so much. They came from nothing more than a multi-billion dollar bank account and have achieved the stated goal of being disruptive. Does resolution make amazingly good looking movies? Ask ARRI. Does big hype make good technology? Ask me - I have never made a dime on hopes and dreams. I have built a solid career buying and using solid and reliable gear.

If the DRAGON EPIC is as easy and reliable as Alexa to go along with a look that is captivating even when the shooting environment is not ideal - I will grin and place an order. I hope RED has turned a corner on the hype machine, just not holding my breath.
 
Duke M. said:
Considering Jim's prior pronouncements on prior RED cameras there may be a significant difference between claimed DR and actual usable DR. The Epic and Scarlet are just not good low light performers. When you add more photo sights the physics pushes towards less light gathering ability and HDR just causes ghosting with motion.

To me that just opens a big healthy dose of 'wait and see', especially as he apparently sees the need to push back against the F55.

Doesn't this make all those recently purchased Epic's obsolete?
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Yes and they shall need a new ADC to process 20 stops no? And will 16-bit raw linear really be enough now?

So much for rendering obsolescence obsolete.
 
I don't think they are obsolete, other than being wonderful camera's, dragon is yet to be released and most likely not for a while, and then you can send in for an upgrade just like with the R1. Some may say the R1 is obsolete but with the recent flood of BT and new firmware it still has some life. I guess it's all in how you see these things.

The camera's will continue to work, continue to be upgraded and serviced, not sure where they become obsolete, if anything it's great to purchase an epic now as you are that much closer to getting dragon when it is released as it's just a send in and upgrade from there, bit of a hassle yes, but great customer loyalty program, choices and options, isn't life grand.

Great times, nothing is set in stone as of yet so it will be interesting to see how things pan out over the next year. I'm going to have to have a mad scramble to stock pile as much cash as I can to save up for the trade in program, as I'm expecting the cost to be more than what I paid for my camera(scarlet) it will be an interesting decision to say the least.

edit: I'm not sure but perhaps there was soemthing about the new epic price not including dragon that confused people, but that was just them taking down a deal where if you paid for more than 50k of red gear you would get the dragon update included free when it was out. I'm fairly sure any and all epics will be able to get the dragon upgrade. though who knows as very little details have been released.
 
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A word of advice: Buy glass. Not the camera.
The Dragon sensor exceeds the size of the image circle of Master primes, Ultras, Cookes, etc.
Which means any investment in FF glass has greater long term valuea than probably the camera itself.
Personally, I am going to likely buy CP.2's or Canon Cine Primes and do some renting of them.
I will wait until the Dragon is yesterday's story and is not only battle tested, but also slain before I pick one up.

Right now, I am enjoying my new F3. :smile:
 
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yoclay said:
A word of advice: Buy glass. Not the camera.
The Dragon sensor exceeds the size of the image circle of Master primes, Ultras, Cookes, etc.
Which means any investment in FF glass has greater long term value.
Personally, I am going to likely buy CP.2's or Canon Cine Primes and do some renting.
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This is not the case actually. you chose if you want to use the full frame image or not. Doesn't mean you have to. MP,UP,Cooke, ect will all work just fine with Dragon. It's weather you want to shoot 6K or 5K that will make the difference. If anything its the opposite.

Now every last bit of resolution MP's and UP's have will be utilized in Dragon. The sensor is the same sensor size as in my Scarlet now... there is no difference in sensor size, its in the pixel count.

My RED can shoot 5K but I dont shoot at that rate, I dont understand why people care so much about FF anyway... kinda silly and backwards, thats a stills format, not cinema format. I shoot in 4K in S35mm and use any cinema glass I want. Same thing will be for Dragon sensor, you can shoot S35 in 5K or FF in 6K, but thats your choice. Also you forget that there are many other types of glass that do cover full frame for dragon in Anamorphic mode.

So im pretty sure shooting with Master Primes in s35mm 5K with much lower noice and lots of DR will be quite lovely.
 
FilmDude said:
This is not the case actually. you chose if you want to use the full frame image or not. Doesn't mean you have to. MP,UP,Cooke, ect will all work just fine with Dragon. It's weather you want to shoot 6K or 5K that will make the difference. If anything its the opposite.

Now every last bit of resolution MP's and UP's have will be utilized in Dragon. The sensor is the same sensor size as in my Scarlet now... there is no difference in sensor size, its in the pixel count.

My RED can shoot 5K but I dont shoot at that rate, I dont understand why people care so much about FF anyway... kinda silly and backwards, thats a stills format, not cinema format. I shoot in 4K in S35mm and use any cinema glass I want. Same thing will be for Dragon sensor, you can shoot S35 in 5K or FF in 6K, but thats your choice. Also you forget that there are many other types of glass that do cover full frame for dragon in Anamorphic mode.

So im pretty sure shooting with Master Primes in s35mm 5K with much lower noice and lots of DR will be quite lovely.
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Not entirely true. The size of the usuable area will increase beyond APS-H. Relative to FF the latter is 1.3x. However, Dragon will increase the usuable area to 1.2x, which is beyond the circle of coverage of MP's, UP's, etc. So while the sensor size may not change, the usuable area will.

CINE Lenses

K35s will cover 6k.
CP2 will cover 6k.
New CP2 Super Speeds cover 6k.
Zeiss Super Speeds will cover 5k.
Zeiss Standard Speeds cover 5k, except the 16mm.
Super Baltars cover 5k.
RPP's cover 5K, except the 18mm.
Cooke Pancros cover 5k, even at 18mm.
Master Primes will cover 5k at 2.4:1 Widescreen.

All FULL FRAME stills glass.

1) Leica R
2) Zeiss ZE/ZF/CP2
3) Zeiss Contax
4) Canon L Series
5) Canon FD
6) Nikon G
7) Nikon AIS
8) Minolta Rokkor

MEDIUM FORMAT lenses

1) Hassleblad
2) Mamiya
3) Contax 645
4) Pentacon Six lenses
5) Leica S Medium format lenses

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?89240-LIST-of-Lens-Sets-that-cover-6k

So while Cine Glass will cover 5K in many instances as you say, anyone who wants to take advantage of 6K and the larger surface area of the sensor is going to have to go to other glass, hence FF. Additionally, the value of the camera will drop like a stone when the next greatest tech is released 2-3 years after. The history of RED has born this out. Epic drops in Epic's price. RedOne's going for $4k, etc. The investment in glass which has greater coverage seems like a far wiser long term investment, because not only do you touch the conventional cinema, FF and all DSLR users, but also now the RED Dragon crowd.
 
Eh I guess my point is, I dont care about FF and anyone who is truly a real cinematographer will not care about the FF either. No lenses were made for it, and its not a standard at all in cinema. You learn what an S35mm image is or an anamorphic image is, lens wise and you stick to it.

You're never going to see the cinema world shift from S35 to FF... there's just no point. You want wider option, then get a wider lens... Get a freaking tokina 11-16 cine, or any of the UP super wide end lenses. There is no gain in the real cinematic world for FF... no point to even worry about it. Only people who will want it is the RED band wagon. But for the real guys shooting your favorite TV shows and Movies and commercials... I think S35 is going to remain the stay.

I think 6K is ridiculous and a waste of data at this point in time. Maybe for IMAX use for blowups yes, but other than that... there is just too much hype in the "K" world. I think thats all done with now, and RED is just trying to keep with its ridiculousness.

RED = "we have more K!" and "We have a bigger sensor"

Arri = "we build the cameras that DP's want to use and sensors that look beautiful" and "we dont give a **** about resolution because we know in the theater you only resolve about 3K max because of MATH"

I dont care about all this 6 k 8k 48K ... I'm not the Hubble telescope, I dont care to see the little hairs in between the pores in the beautiful actress face... I care about a beautiful image, one that can be seen.

I've been watching a bunch of Alexa features in the theaters lately (which by me are all either 2K or 4K projectors... most likely 2K) and the images are quite stunning. But also because of theater size and where you'd sit, you're just never going to be able to resolve all that detail in a theater (never the less on a freaking tv set) so why bother??

It's an age old fight of the megapixels, but its just annoying now. I do like that they gained dynamic range, but yet again they went overboard with it. It's all just fluff. Stuff that the human eye can't see. So who cares? apart from some of the special situations where extreme dynamic range can be used to protect highlights... who the heck cares about 20 stops?? No projector can even show that many stops, not even close to it. RED almost burnt down their testing room trying to get enough light through their test chart just to show 20 stops....

Its all "hey mine is bigger than yours" argument. It's like cars now, you may have a huge engine that puts out 8930495830945 horse power, but if you can't get that through the tires and to the road, it doesn't matter at all. Its just for show.

I talked to a few major DP's including Roger D. himself, and hes stated that he doesn't care about full frame sensor sizes or extra "K". they all have the same thing... they want the colors and feel to be close to that of film, and thats that.
 
FilmDude said:
Eh I guess my point is, I dont care about FF and anyone who is truly a real cinematographer will not care about the FF either.
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Anyone who shoots FF or cares about it is not a real cinematographer?

Well, personally speaking I prefer the image from the Alexa as well, but don't you think you are overstating things a little?
Real men don't eat quiche, either, right? I guess Shane Hurlbut is not a real cinematographer? Come on, the tools are changing. Don't you think the quality is going to improve beyond the 1DC (which APS-H) into larger FF eventually? It's gonna happen, we all know it. That's just the pace of change. Why limit yourself ?

Yes, I prefer the Alexa over the RED. However, this is in large part because it holds values in the highlights so much better and has much nicer roll-off.The reason to care that RED moves towards greater dynamic range is that this bodes much better for that part of the spectrum. If they can get 10 stops above middle grey (which is what that chart shows), rather than the current 5 above and 7 below, that will make a big difference.

After that as I said, I see it as unwise investing in any camera that comes onto the market right now (as your man Mr. Deakins has stated himself), because cameras are changing so quickly and dropping in price so much more quickly.

Glass on the other hand is here to stay.
 
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