FEATURE: "DOWN AND DANGEROUS" - new update, one year later.

Whoa, big apologies... I don't know all the details about how Kickstarter works... I thought that whatever people pledge immediately goes into an escrow account and the donors get it back if the campaign doesn't hit the target; IF - as it now appears - you actually don't have to *pay up* with real money until the campaign reaches the goal, then what's to prevent flakes from, well, flaking? I mean, whenever you delay payment, money has a way of disappearing; in any large group, you'll have some % flake out, that's just statistics and social reality. Hmm. That means, that ideally you should shoot for more than you need, just so you can account for the flake factor. Any idea what the average % of donors flake, so you can adjust your goal by + that %?

Anyhow, congrats to Zak for hitting the goal and then some (hopefully taking care of the flake factor).
 
Zak, congrats on reaching the goal!

A questions: i presume you will hold a bunch of those fund raisers - even for a low budget production you still need $150-200k so the $30k i'm assuming are for some kind of pre-pro, yes? How will you starts raising for the actual production? Also kickstarter?
 
Zak, forgot to drop in and say congrats on reaching and exceeding your goal! A producer friend of mine tells me she chipped in another $1000 for you... now make us all proud!


OldCorpse said:
Whoa, big apologies... I don't know all the details about how Kickstarter works... I thought that whatever people pledge immediately goes into an escrow account and the donors get it back if the campaign doesn't hit the target; IF - as it now appears - you actually don't have to *pay up* with real money until the campaign reaches the goal, then what's to prevent flakes from, well, flaking? I mean, whenever you delay payment, money has a way of disappearing; in any large group, you'll have some % flake out, that's just statistics and social reality. Hmm. That means, that ideally you should shoot for more than you need, just so you can account for the flake factor. Any idea what the average % of donors flake, so you can adjust your goal by + that %?
Click to expand...

Amazon gets your CC info up front, when you pledge, not when the campaign concludes. So in a sense it is like a soft virtual escrow.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Zak, congrats on reaching the goal!

A questions: i presume you will hold a bunch of those fund raisers - even for a low budget production you still need $150-200k so the $30k i'm assuming are for some kind of pre-pro, yes? How will you starts raising for the actual production? Also kickstarter?
Click to expand...

Thank you, Patrick. We are SUPERCHARGED by reaching our goal and can't wait to get to production.

As to the budget, a higher number would certainly be an appropriate expectation if we were starting from nothing, but I am in a very fortunate position. I already own all the production gear we'll need. Most was bought early this year, some was even donated to me (dolly, jib, car mount) from a very generous friend. I have buddies who are working professionals that are coming out of the woodwork to offer their services because we like working together , or they like working with John, or both – everything from camera dept to sound to stuntmen to a steadicam op to a line producer to remote aerial cinematography and more. One dvxuser who will remain nameless (i'm sure he'll claim credit here if he wants it) sent me a list of gear and encouraged me to make use of any or all of it.

As to where the money is going, this is the only crowdfunding campaign we are holding for this movie and the funds raised go directly to the production budget. I'm floating pre-pro and post out of my own pocket, which really won't cost much because the overhead is absorbed by my company. Won't need to rent additional office space for casting, meetings, etc. Already have it. What else? We have an attorney. We do our own casting, although my office shares a floor with a casting director duo who wants to help – although I'm not sure how they'll have the time because they're always super busy. I'm thinking of giving them the last of the major characters to work on. I own a post facility on the Miracle Mile that will absorb the costs of everything from offline to deliverables. But again, nearly all the money from this campaign is going right on camera to pay the cast, to buy props and wardrobe and make-up, to pay location fees, but also things like payroll services, workman's comp and other behind the camera essentials. I already have year-round production insurance so that's not coming out of the budget either.

$34,000+ in donations is a lot of money and I don't take these contributions lightly. Over 300 VERY generous people are behind us now, but have not come in because they are dying to see a crime thriller about a smuggler. They are coming in because people want to back me and the rest of the core team. And because they've given so generously, I'm seeing to it that it will be spent as effectively as possible. For example, some interiors will be shot in Palm Springs because the cost of a vacation rental there is a fraction of what the equivalent would cost in Los Angeles.

Plotless said:
Why did the total go down today? I didn't know that was possible.
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Sadly, one of our major backers was affected by the hurricane and needed to substantially reduce their pledge to make immediate repairs. Fortunately no one was hurt. And they will be cutting a check for the same amount in a few weeks.
 
dougspice said:
Zak, forgot to drop in and say congrats on reaching and exceeding your goal! A producer friend of mine tells me she chipped in another $1000 for you... now make us all proud!
Click to expand...

Yeah we spoke on the phone for half an hour and before long... we were old friends. She is offering to help in ways beyond the $1,000 contribution as well. Thanks for fostering that connection. :)
 
Zak Forsman said:
Over 300 VERY generous people are behind us now, but have not come in because they are dying to see a crime thriller about a smuggler. They are coming in because people want to back me and the rest of the core team.
Click to expand...
This is exactly it. If someone I didn't know and who didn't have a resume like Zak's, had announced their Kickstarter, it wouldn't have even registered on my radar. But because it's Zak and his team, I was in almost regardless of what the particular project was.
 
Big congrats, Zak! You sound like you really do have everything you need and more. $30,000 + is a ton of money for indies. We're so used to making a big something out of little or nothing that I'm sure you can pull off this budget and easily make it look like a major Hollywood film. Best of luck to you and your crew.
 
OldCorpse said:
Whoa, big apologies... I don't know all the details about how Kickstarter works... I thought that whatever people pledge immediately goes into an escrow account and the donors get it back if the campaign doesn't hit the target; IF - as it now appears - you actually don't have to *pay up* with real money until the campaign reaches the goal, then what's to prevent flakes from, well, flaking? I mean, whenever you delay payment, money has a way of disappearing; in any large group, you'll have some % flake out, that's just statistics and social reality. Hmm. That means, that ideally you should shoot for more than you need, just so you can account for the flake factor. Any idea what the average % of donors flake, so you can adjust your goal by + that %?

Anyhow, congrats to Zak for hitting the goal and then some (hopefully taking care of the flake factor).
Click to expand...

With my Kickstarter project the flake-out rate was about 20% of the total amount pledged.
 
Ryan-Guy said:
With my Kickstarter project the flake-out rate was about 20% of the total amount pledged.
Click to expand...

Wow. It's probably somewhat individual, but if one were to take that as the average flake-out rate, then Zak is right on the nose of the $30K, since he's at $36K as of this moment, 20% is $6K, so - $30K!
 
Not sure how someone flakes on Kickstarter? Once the pledge is made (through Amazon payments) the credit card is reserved, right? I mean, how would someone flake out?

(don't worry Zak, I'm not contemplating flaking! I'm just curious)
 
Barry_Green said:
Not sure how someone flakes on Kickstarter? Once the pledge is made (through Amazon payments) the credit card is reserved, right? I mean, how would someone flake out?

(don't worry Zak, I'm not contemplating flaking! I'm just curious)
Click to expand...

You enter your bank account info at the time of making the pledge, but the card is charged when the project hits the deadline. So really its a declined charge, or insufficient funds. Every pledge was processed, but only 80% were cleared.

Also you have to take in to account Kickstarter's 5% service fee, plus amazon's 2-5% service fee, which averaged (K%+A%/2) about 8%. So I only got about 72% of the amount pledged. Plus a later cost of the rewards, which I built in at 10%. In total Im getting 62% of what everyone saw on my project page. Its steep but as long as you build it into your budget you will be fine.
 
62% clearance rate... holy smokes, Ryan-Guy! Well, that's interesting. I apologize, I just have that kind of a brain - I puzzle over little inconsistencies and I tend to mull things over, trying to understand them. Mostly, it's a pain, but in this case, I certainly am glad that I kept probing this whole Kickstarter thing, because we certainly are learning a lot (even Barry Green :)) - doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Kickstarter, but the picture is more complicated than the simple "GoGoGoGREAT!!!UNO!!!" that usually greets Kickstarter campaigns. Thank you for giving us a bit more clarity on some details, Ryan-Guy.

I'm sure my restless brain will keep on churning, but I now feel like I understand this a bit better :)
 
OldCorpse said:
62% clearance rate... holy smokes, Ryan-Guy! Well, that's interesting. I apologize, I just have that kind of a brain - I puzzle over little inconsistencies and I tend to mull things over, trying to understand them. Mostly, it's a pain, but in this case, I certainly am glad that I kept probing this whole Kickstarter thing, because we certainly are learning a lot (even Barry Green :)) - doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Kickstarter, but the picture is more complicated than the simple "GoGoGoGREAT!!!UNO!!!" that usually greets Kickstarter campaigns. Thank you for giving us a bit more clarity on some details, Ryan-Guy.

I'm sure my restless brain will keep on churning, but I now feel like I understand this a bit better :)
Click to expand...

Of coarse its a case by case thing. I could have had zero costs for the rewards and had been back at 72% net, and my demographics may have leaned more towards the flakey types. I'll know on my next KS project. Fee free to PM me if you have any questions or would like to pick my brain about what I learned what worked and what didn't. BTW, my project made $45,000.

Zak, I just looked over your project. Congrats on passing your goal. I know how stressful it can be during the campaign and the relief when you pass! If I may give a little suggestion for your final hours, I'd advise you to "update" (do not do "backers only") that you are hours away from your project and "this you and your friends/family's last chance to get in on the great rewards!" I see that you have about 1,500 facebook likes, and with KS's new deal, your public updates are posted on Facebook as a status. That means you have about 1,200 people that like your project but are yet to pledge, that can be informed immediately that they are about to miss out. You should see a nice bump from that.
 
Thanks for the insight, Ryan. Before launching, I consulted other filmmakers who swim in the same circles that i do and who raised approximately the same amount. they each saw about $500 in donations that didn't materialize. a bit more than that didn't process but a polite email to the backer saying their card needed updating resolved that.

After the dust settles, I'll be sure to share exactly how it all landed.
 
Zak, though i appreciate your honest response, having done my share of budgets in my life i just can't comprehend how you calculate your numbers. Gear and post facility is only fraction of any budget, the elephant chunk is the salary of the people. Even if you just pay $100/day between even minimal crew it adds up awfully fast. Of course i wish you luck but depending on time donated by all the crew members is a recipe for a disaster.

Zak Forsman said:
Thank you, Patrick. We are SUPERCHARGED by reaching our goal and can't wait to get to production.
As to the budget, a higher number would certainly be an appropriate expectation if we were starting from nothing, but I am in a very fortunate position. I already own all the production gear we'll need. Most was bought early this year, some was even donated to me (dolly, jib, car mount) from a very generous friend. I have buddies who are working professionals that are coming out of the woodwork to offer their services because we like working together , or they like working with John, or both – everything from camera dept to sound to stuntmen to a steadicam op to a line producer to remote aerial cinematography and more. One dvxuser who will remain nameless (i'm sure he'll claim credit here if he wants it) sent me a list of gear and encouraged me to make use of any or all of it.

As to where the money is going, this is the only crowdfunding campaign we are holding for this movie and the funds raised go directly to the production budget. I'm floating pre-pro and post out of my own pocket, which really won't cost much because the overhead is absorbed by my company. Won't need to rent additional office space for casting, meetings, etc. Already have it. What else? We have an attorney. We do our own casting, although my office shares a floor with a casting director duo who wants to help – although I'm not sure how they'll have the time because they're always super busy. I'm thinking of giving them the last of the major characters to work on. I own a post facility on the Miracle Mile that will absorb the costs of everything from offline to deliverables. But again, nearly all the money from this campaign is going right on camera to pay the cast, to buy props and wardrobe and make-up, to pay location fees, but also things like payroll services, workman's comp and other behind the camera essentials. I already have year-round production insurance so that's not coming out of the budget either.

$34,000+ in donations is a lot of money and I don't take these contributions lightly. Over 300 VERY generous people are behind us now, but have not come in because they are dying to see a crime thriller about a smuggler. They are coming in because people want to back me and the rest of the core team. And because they've given so generously, I'm seeing to it that it will be spent as effectively as possible. For example, some interiors will be shot in Palm Springs because the cost of a vacation rental there is a fraction of what the equivalent would cost in Los Angeles.
Click to expand...
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Zak, though i appreciate your honest response, having done my share of budgets in my life i just can't comprehend how you calculate your numbers. Gear and post facility is only fraction of any budget, the elephant chunk is the salary of the people. Even if you just pay $100/day between even minimal crew it adds up awfully fast. Of course i wish you luck but depending on time donated by all the crew members is a recipe for a disaster.
Click to expand...

This is ridiculous. Don't you think it depends on how many people are involved? You can make a feature with 3-5 crew members and 1-3 actor(s), if you have the right script. Without knowing anything about what the requirements of the script are, and how long they're going to be shooting, it's laughable to make such pronouncements. And yes, there were features made for less than Zak's budget, which went on to getting sold and eventually distributed. I'll let Zak speak to the specifics, should he wish to, but I wonder if we are not wandering off from the topic of the thread a bit. In any case, just because some people can't imagine how to do something doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means they don't know how to do it.
 
I appreciate your thoughts on this Patryk, definitely. Many microbudget productions probably are not run very well due to inexperience and that's why we see ridiculous job offers on craigslist. We (meaning, The Sabi Company) have done two features at this level in a very professional manner already. By nature of what we do for a living, we've had the opportunity to be witness to dozens of studio sets since 2006 from Smokin' Aces, Goodnight and Good Luck and Milk to Pirates of the Caribbean 1, 2 & 3 and the first Transformers – Smokin' Aces is how I know Joe Carnahan if anyone is wondering why he's been tweeting about us. </namedrop> :)

The lessons taken away from those sets have allowed us to intelligently shape our own model for production. No one is being taken advantage of. We operate with a very small footprint and keep our days to 9 or 10 hours max for crew, 8 for cast. No one with any sign of an ego problem gets within five miles of us, and weed them out with a very careful interview. It's the furthest thing from a disaster, having never had a single tense moment on set as far as I can recall. We've never had anyone flake or disappear on us because we foster a truly family-like atmosphere, look out for everyone's individual needs, hire well and pay them to be there. I know there are shady producers out there taking advantage of people and giving microbudget productions a bad name, but if what we've been doing was a recipe for disaster (which implies more often than not it shouldn't work), I wouldn't be able to embark on this movie (our third feature) with the same people from previous crews. And outside of Sabi, there would be no Superseeds, no For Lovers Only. I feel good about our numbers. Just two weeks ago, someone who learned about our campaign and does budgets for Nu Image, offered to help me put ours together because he's genuinely excited about what we're doing. He's just another example of someone who is a working professional AND enthusiastic about backing us in more ways than one.

Okay, back to the campaign, only five hours left! >> http://kck.st/qB45dd
 
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