Doesn't Feel Like Panasonic Cares...

[alexsalmona]

Maybe its just me and I'm sure it is but it feels like Panasonic has kind of given up on the GH1. They gave us a couple of lousy software updates. None of those had any of the features people have been asking for. Its almost as if they kind of said "we gave you a still camera that has SOME of our video technology so you can play with DOF, but we don't want to cannibalize our camcorder market so we wont be giving out these video features you really need and have been asking for." I say this because Canon also has a camcorder market but regardless they have been listening to customers and they have been providing firmware updates to address them. Its a shame too because the GH1 really does have some amazing tech in it either by accident or on purpose. I'm hoping I'm REALLY wrong here so if anyone has heard something different let me know.

 

[dvbrother]

I don't think they've given up on it, but you're right in that it seems like they've let Canon hog the spotlight. IMHO the GH1 is perceived by non-owners as an inferior camera, which it most certainly is not. The thing that seems to be hindering the GH1 most is it's lack of monitoring ability. Enabling a live HDMI out would up its credibility immensely because I belive it already trumps the Canons as far as picture quality. I don't know if the GH1 has been profitable for Panasonic or not. My guess is that they're listening to us, but planning to implement these requests as part of the GH2, thus making us spend more money rather than getting it all for free.

 

[qap15]

I hope they don't recall all the cameras to replace the codec, with the CEO being forced to the panel with an apology like Toyota and Nissan did

 

[Gary Huff]

Yet you can't blame them entirely. HDSLRs are primarily aimed towards photographers who would like to be able to shoot a little bit of video, not towards videographers. That the DOF sucked the video crowd in (and let's face it...the DOF is the primary reason the HDSLRs are so popular in the first place) was something that, at first, came as a surprise.

 

[Barry_Green]

They gave us a couple of lousy software updates.

Which is pretty much all that any manufacturer ever does.

None of those had any of the features people have been asking for.

Which is because no camera manufacturer ever does that. Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, JVC, Sharp, Samsung, Sanyo... they just don't do that.

How many features has Nikon added to the D90 through firmware?
How many features has Canon added to the 7D through firmware?
How many features has Sony ever added to any product ever (in the prosumer/consumer camcorder lineup), through firmware?

It's just not something that's done. Off the top of my head, in this sector, I think Canon has created exactly one firmware update ever (so far, and have announced a second) that has added features, and now all of a sudden people are acting like this is standard procedure. It isn't. Camera manufacturers do not, as an order of business, go about adding features to existing products.

In fact, if I may, let me quote (as best I can remember) Tim Smith, Manager of Digital Imaging, of Canon: "We don't add features to older products. New features are reserved for new product introductions." Smith said he'd been with Canon for 20+ years, and he was shocked when they introduced the firmware update for the 5D that added manual controls. He said that he's never seen anything like that, and he would have bet heavily on them never doing it.

Now, I'm pretty sure that someone will come along to trot out some obscure firmware update here or there to try to disprove the rule, but ... as a rule, among the major electronics manufacturers, features are not added through firmware updates. Firmware updates are used to fix bugs, not add features.

The updates you're looking for aren't going to come in firmware. They might come in a GH2 or other follow-up model, but they won't show up in firmware. That's just not how the business works or has ever worked in the past.

 

[Tracey Lee]

Just give them some time guys...not necessarily for a firmware update, but a better camera. Panasonic has been on top with their video camera line for a while now (imho) and they will eventually get up there in the cinema-type camcorders/dslrs. I still think the GH1 is better than the other dslrs out there even with its workarounds...and even with the perfect camera...there will always be just one more feature we wish we had.

 

[PerroneFord]

How many features has Sony ever added to any product ever, through firmware?

Uhh, do you really want me to answer that?

 

[Barry_Green]

I hope they don't recall all the cameras to replace the codec, with the CEO being forced to the panel with an apology like Toyota and Nissan did

Excellent analogy. How many firmware updates has any car manufacturer ever issued for any prior model of car? They don't. They introduce a new model every year, and that new model has the updates. The old models, as a rule, simply do not get updated. Cameras are the same way.

Auto manufacturers will issue recalls, but they are almost exclusively (if not exclusively) related to *safety* issues. Has there ever, in the nearly 100 years of auto manufacturing, been a case of a manufacturer recalling a car simply to make it "better" for the end user?

I can think of two cases of recalls in the prosumer-price-class video industry; one was the Sony PD150 which had lousy hissy audio. Customers badgered Sony to fix it, Sony said "there is not a problem, however, if you want hiss-free audio we can fix it, but we will charge you $150." Customers screamed and howled and Sony relented and fixed it. And JVC recalled the original HD100 (claiming they were "upgrading" the model to HD100A) but the "new features" that were added were 1) the tape drive actually started recording everything you thought it already was, instead of it just plain *not recording* and when you go to playback it just flashed a message saying "mode changing", and 2) they "upgraded" the battery mount for its Anton Bauer battery so that it actually worked and told you the amount of voltage remaining, and 3) they fixed the recording format so that NLEs would actually work with it. Three functionality fixes, not exactly "upgrades" or adding new features -- that's a recall, not an upgrade.

So, yes -- Canon is unique in that they went back in and added manual controls to the 5D, and they are now adding the 24fps frame rate to the 5D. Panasonic added flash-band compensation to the HPX300, and they added 24p to the SPX800 (or some other model, don't remember). And JVC put out a firmware update to allow you to record 35mbps video onto SDHC cards instead of just SxS cards, on the HM700. Out of the hundreds and hundreds of models Panasonic and Canon and Sony and JVC have offered in the 15 years I've been paying attention to professional and consumer video, those are pretty much all I can think of. So firmware updating to add features is an extremely rare exception to a pretty common rule: new features are added in new model introductions, and not through firmware.

 

[alexsalmona]

You know the reason I brought this up is because Canon IS releasing an update do to user demand. It sets a new precedence which I hope Panasonic will follow. Thats what I was getting at. It seems like others agree. Mostly I was curious to see if anyone had heard differently. Sometimes I feel like when people answer on here its in a very condescending tone.

 

[Barry_Green]

Uhh, do you really want me to answer that?

Well, limiting it to the discussion of consumer and prosumer camcorders, obviously, since that's what we're discussing here -- yes. What features have they added? Not bug fixes, but new features that didn't exist before.

 

[Barry_Green]

You know the reason I brought this up is because Canon IS releasing an update do to user demand.

They are, and congrats to them.

It sets a new precedence which I hope Panasonic will follow.

We all hope that all the manufacturers would do that, of course. I'm just pointing out that it is extremely rare.

It seems like others agree.

Well, of course people agree -- who doesn't want something for nothing? Everybody wants something for nothing.

But it is counterproductive for the manufacturers to do that. They have a limited number of engineers, so when assigning them to work on projects, they have two choices:
1) They can develop new features for existing products that they've already sold and they've already got people's money and they've already deposited it in the bank, resulting in no new revenues for the company, or

2) They can develop new products that will be so much better that their existing customers will want to buy new, resulting in lots of new revenues for the company.

One of those options results in additional revenues coming in, the other one doesn't. So, really -- which path do you expect them to take?

Look, I'd love to believe that we're all going to get fabulous new features for free. But as a businessman I can't see any logical reason why they'd do that. Look at Canon, for example: the 7D came out just six months ago. The 1D Mark IV came out four months ago. The t2i came out a few weeks ago. What's next? Canon is on a pace of introducing new EOS DSLRs averaging one every three months! Do you really expect them to go and update old/sold models? I don't.

I don't believe in the tooth fairy, and I don't believe businesses are in business to give things away for free. I think the firmware updates on the 5D have been incredibly good business for Canon because they really have become known as the "go to" for DSLR cinematography, so it may be a calculated business decision by them to raise their profile and extend a halo around their whole product line -- and it's working. But that doesn't mean we should all expect new free upgrades.

If we get them, we'll all be happy. But doesn't it seem unrealistic?

 

[Ron Rodenmeyer]

The 5D updates are very rare, and I would bet they were caused by an extreme amount of pressure from a large, loyal group who paid a lot of money for their hardware. With the announcement and then introduction of the 7D (and later the 550D), high-end Canon users were rightfully upset to see this new, coveted technology (24P, manual controls) in a lower priced model so soon after the release of the much more expensive full-frame camera. That's just speculation of course. They may have done it just because they're so nice and helpful.

 

[alexsalmona]

Maybe not free. I would gladly pay 30-50 for a an update that adds much wanted features. Or maybe the magic lantern guys might be able to do something if Panasonic was willing to open up the firmware source code. Being a hardware manufacturer I dont think it would effect their business model much to do that.

 

[Starshine Video]

Uhh, do you really want me to answer that?

The sony alpha 100 gets firmware updates pretty often including one that upped the maximum burst framerate in RAW.
the sony Bluray players get firmware updates all the time that add features and increase compatibility with the newest disks
iirc 35 firmware updates to the PS3 to date.
the PSP is on version 6.2 and a ton of features have been added.
sony ericsson phones are constantly getting firmware updates that add features.

The reason that firmware updates have been historically absent is until recently it was not logistically possible to update the bulk of the "fleet" of consumer electronics. Now with the proliferation of high speed internet and devices that are either constantly connected to the internet, or often connected to devices that are on the net, companies need to step up and be responsive to its most active customer base.
Canon is doing it, Sony is doing it, Panasonic needs to start doing it or their products will be relegated to second tier status.

 

[William_Robinette]

Canon is doing it, Sony is doing it, Panasonic needs to start doing it or their products will be relegated to second tier status.

Panasonic doesn't need to do anything. They came out with a great product in the GH1. They come out with great cameras all the time.

GH1 owners bought a camera that was not intended to be used how they use it, professionally, and understandably they are upset with some things. But really, who made the decision to use the product in a manner other then intended? Panasonic? Please...

Pana doesn't have to do sh*t, except make the GH2 that much better if they want to compete in the tiny, tiny market that is DSLR filmmakers.

 

[Barry_Green]

The sony alpha 100 gets firmware updates pretty often including one that upped the maximum burst framerate in RAW.
the sony Bluray players get firmware updates all the time that add features and increase compatibility with the newest disks
iirc 35 firmware updates to the PS3 to date.
the PSP is on version 6.2 and a ton of features have been added.
sony ericsson phones are constantly getting firmware updates that add features.

But none of those are in the industry we're talking about -- consumer/prosumer camcorders. And the Alpha -- any of those updates that added new features? Upping the maximum burst framerate is nice, but actually quite comical considering that of the firmware updates for the GH1 (which started this thread) one of them specifically upped the maximum burst framerate...

 

[Camera Expert]

I wouldn't say the updates that they're given out were tiny. I mean, the auto focusing is a bit more accurate now. Still, I do feel that that at the very least, they should offer 24p without pull-down.

I bet that will be the first thing most people will look for in the specs once the successor of the GH1 gets announced. Hopefully they get that right. I really feel bad about people shooting in 24p and not realize that it would have been better if they removed the pull-down beforehand. That's one of the reasons I've been bashing the $3,500 AX2000. It's bad enough that a $1,190 camera that includes an $850 lens has pull-down added. That makes the GH1 seam much, much cheaper than the T2i when you think of it that way.

 

[Barry_Green]

(p.s. edited my original post to clarify that I was asking about firmware updates in consumer/prosumer camcorders)

 

[Ben_B]

Barry, I think that if somehow we see data to indicate that the firmware updates significantly boosted or restarted 5D sales then we will see other manufacturers doing something similar...but it might take awhile. The press and sales boost without having to sink a bunch into new product R and D, or at least give an existing product a longer sellable lifespan, is nothing to sneeze at.

However, we live in very exciting times, and it is worth noting that the 5D was really the first of its type, so they changed a few things after till they got it right. Now, however, the first wave is nearly over, and we'll be seeing the second wave of HDSLRs...first among them the T2i (550d) and, arguably, the 7D, where the manufacturers have seen what we want, and are starting to give it to us. I for one cannot wait to see what Panasonic announces this month (hoping, as many of you are for, a GH1 successor...although I am strongly hoping for either a substantially new kit lens or a body only option.) Now would be the perfect timing for me...I'd finish the film I am doing with the GH1 (shooting till maybe April) while I save up, sell the thing, and get the new one.

 

[Barry_Green]

and it is worth noting that the 5D was really the first of its type, so they changed a few things after till they got it right

That is an excellent point, of course. If they got a ton of feedback that said "we would buy this except for this fundamental shortcoming", and Canon figured that a little R&D would result in X number of additional sales, then yes, that's an argument for a business case for making a firmware update that adds features.