taormina
Hates to Rent
Dude, I so agree.
Does poor man's lighting really work?
- Thread starter Indyreel
- Start date
Dude, I so agree.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Cool Lights is bringing the price down, yes, but you don't get something for nothing. The build quality of professional gear is much better than the build quality of Cool Lights stuff, which is much better than the build quality of homemade fixtures.
Professional gear is designed to withstand the rigors of day-in and day-out use, and being rented from a rental house and being used by people who are renting the stuff. No way would this lower-priced gear stand up to such use.
To address the original poster: if it's outputting lumens, it can be made to work. But there is no free lunch, and the longer you spend jerry-rigging and trying to work around the cheap product's limitations, the more you'll understand why professional fixtures operate the way they do. People have been facing this task for 100 years so far, and the equipment has evolved to the point it has because it does the job.
To address Dan's question as to why we haven't seen any stellar-looking photography produced from homemade equipment: it's because anyone who's worked enough to develop their skills enough to produce something that looks that good, wouldn't bother with fighting all the limitations from the homemade/cheap gear. It's not that it "can't" be done, it's that nobody would voluntarily put themselves through that pain and effort.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
To address Dan's question as to why we haven't seen any stellar-looking photography produced from homemade equipment: it's because anyone who's worked enough to develop their skills enough to produce something that looks that good, wouldn't bother with fighting all the limitations from the homemade/cheap gear. It's not that it "can't" be done, it's that nobody would voluntarily put themselves through that pain and effort.
That's what I'm sayin'. I can do killer lighting with almost anything but it is such a hassle and I end up using another $5k of grip gear to make it work. Early in my career, I made all of the mistakes. I bought a crappy bogen tripod, a crappy mixer and a crappy camera. I learned really quickly, if you buy crap, you are just handicapping yourself and your product so why bother? That's why I have Arris, Moles, Kinos and a couple of tons of grip gear. It makes a huge difference not having to fight your tools.
Best,
Dan
Barry_Green
Moderator
Everything's a compromise, of course. And guys starting out, or broke, won't have access to that stuff, so there's an understandable desire to find some magic solution that's "just as good" and that somehow the 100+ years of experience of professional moviemakers have just "missed it" or "never thought of it."
That ain't the case. The tradeoff is that using homemade cheapo gear is a painful, tedious, and potentially dangerous experience. If you don't have the cash to buy proper gear, well, you're going to have to compromise by putting up with the tedium and hassle of working with homemade stuff. Or go to a film school and get experience with the proper gear. Or borrow or rent proper gear. Basically any alternative is superior to using homemade stuff that's not designed for the purpose.
At the very bare minimum, you should be trying to at least get stuff from places like Cool Lights or Britek. At least that stuff will actually fit properly on a proper light stand (not that the Britek light stands are proper light stands, quite the opposite, they're junk) but at least the stuff can be properly mounted. It'll have proper barn doors. It'll be engineered with proper handles so you can move and manipulate it.
Sometimes you gotta slog through the crap in order to get yourself up a notch. Rodriguez used a non-sync Arri 16S to shoot El Mariachi, fer cryin' out loud -- but, he never used it again! As soon as he could possibly get away from that workflow, he did. So why slog through the swamp if you can possibly, in any possible way, bypass that and just do it the "right" way, the way that everybody goes to as soon as they can possibly afford to?
Set your sights higher. Find a way to us the right gear, you'll thank yourself a thousand times over.
That ain't the case. The tradeoff is that using homemade cheapo gear is a painful, tedious, and potentially dangerous experience. If you don't have the cash to buy proper gear, well, you're going to have to compromise by putting up with the tedium and hassle of working with homemade stuff. Or go to a film school and get experience with the proper gear. Or borrow or rent proper gear. Basically any alternative is superior to using homemade stuff that's not designed for the purpose.
At the very bare minimum, you should be trying to at least get stuff from places like Cool Lights or Britek. At least that stuff will actually fit properly on a proper light stand (not that the Britek light stands are proper light stands, quite the opposite, they're junk) but at least the stuff can be properly mounted. It'll have proper barn doors. It'll be engineered with proper handles so you can move and manipulate it.
Sometimes you gotta slog through the crap in order to get yourself up a notch. Rodriguez used a non-sync Arri 16S to shoot El Mariachi, fer cryin' out loud -- but, he never used it again! As soon as he could possibly get away from that workflow, he did. So why slog through the swamp if you can possibly, in any possible way, bypass that and just do it the "right" way, the way that everybody goes to as soon as they can possibly afford to?
Set your sights higher. Find a way to us the right gear, you'll thank yourself a thousand times over.
I'm not disagreeing but I do remember Matt McDermitt doing some pretty phenomenal stuff with some worklights. That work got him on with HSI. Personally, I'd rather have HMI pars and a truckload of Kino 2ft and 4ft lights and various other goodies. But you gotta do what what you gotta do...
Yes, here's something to consider.
Any color correction gel will eat up a stop of light, at least. Then you'll have to diffuse. or bounce the light... again a stop or so.
My advice is to rent what you need for current projects and budget in amounts to build up your kit with good quality lighting fixtures and grip gear.
There's one major problem with poor man's lighting, regardless of how good you can make it look on camera:
The gear looks unprofessional. Use it for your personal videos, but I wouldn't dare show up to a client with Home Depot lighting.
Its not the equipment, but the skills of the lighter. You can use any light to make something look good.
The gear looks unprofessional. Use it for your personal videos, but I wouldn't dare show up to a client with Home Depot lighting.
Its not the equipment, but the skills of the lighter. You can use any light to make something look good.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
You bring up another good point. I have had my Arri kit for 11 years. I have had my Lowel kit for 15 years. All of my grip, between 5 and 10 years. Professional grip and lighting is the best investment you can make in this business. It doesn't get outdated. If you keep up with maintaining it, it lasts close to forever. You can charge for it on every project, I do. You can rent it out to trusted colleagues as I have on occasion.
Cameras, computers, all of the other stuff we buy are some of the worst investments you can make, they will always depreciate immediately. Grip and lighting can appreciate. I bought a Joker 1200 watt HMI PAR from a rental house, almost new condition for $2,500.00. I used it for four years. Listed it on Ebay and sold it for $3,200.00. So I had four years of free rental and made $700.00 in profit. Try doing that with a camera or computer.
Dan
TedRR
Well-known member
Thanks, this has hardly been mentioned here. Looks shouldn't be the most important thing, but it does matter.
If you show up with professional gear, there is a sense of confidence before your client sees your work. If you show up with Home Depot lighting, it will take longer and a much better look to get the same level of confidence from your client.
Just an observation from working with different clients for 30 years. Lighting abilities is most important, but there is something about first impressions that can't be ignored.
Spartacus
Veteran
I don´t think so.
There is a reason why we have all the different fixtures in our setup.
There´s no way to wash a street at night with a VidLed - no matter how skilled you are.
On the other hand a 1,2K HMI won´t be of much use in a small confined office (well, besides tanning...)
That said there is one DIY lighting fixture, that just can´t be beat when it comes to bang for the buck: the chinese latern.
Add some black wrap and you can do A LOT - but just not anything...:laugh:
Go here.... this is a great price for what you get
http://www.pclightingsystems.com/DF/4500-kit.html
http://www.pclightingsystems.com/DF/4500-kit.html
Jeff Anderson
Custom Title!
actually dont go there. do a search and read about the dozens of people ripped off by pacific coast and what a pain they are to deal with. You get what you pay for...
Well we're not talking extreme lighting like to wash a street. But for interview and simple set/scene/room lighting, you could get away with using Home Depot only equipment and make it look good.
Spartacus
Veteran
Do you have anything to show to back that up...?
For a simple interview all you need is Key, Back, Fill. This could be accomplished for under $1200 from Coollights using a combination of 2 Flous and a single HMI. As a bonus you will not be loading up the client's electric circuits, which can cause real trouble.
Really off topic:
I know everyone approaches going into business differently, but all things considered going into videography is pretty cheap when compared to a lot of other businesses. Try opening a restaurant, or a muffler shop, or a small retail store. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars just to get started. A $5000 camera, a $3000 computer, $3000 worth of sound gear, and ~$4000 of lighting and grip gets your home based business going; try that in any other industry.
Bob
Really off topic:
I know everyone approaches going into business differently, but all things considered going into videography is pretty cheap when compared to a lot of other businesses. Try opening a restaurant, or a muffler shop, or a small retail store. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars just to get started. A $5000 camera, a $3000 computer, $3000 worth of sound gear, and ~$4000 of lighting and grip gets your home based business going; try that in any other industry.
Bob
Good points here. I regularly slam one manufacturer of cheap lights on this board because they let me down in a professional situation. I tried to skimp and paid for it in the field. Using "bargain" equipment compromises your ability to function professionally in a business segment where your competition is always willing to invest in proper equipment. How can they afford their premium gear? They offer professional results and get paid for their work. It doesn't happen for these people incidentally.
On worklights. Many try to make home improvement worklights into something their never going to be. Softlights, fresnels, flos, eyelights and one and on. Here is what those fixtures are: broads. A broad might seem a great fixture for many applications. And it is! If you have vast amounts of grip equipment to place between it and your subject. Mole Richardson, who knows more than anyone about lighting, describes a broad as this.
I disagree about the generalization that professional results haven't been achieved with lesser fixtures. To the contrary, I see plenty of resourceful products that effectively came "from the garage". Often, these are items that were kit-bashed by an electrician or grip or camera operator for a specific show requirement. As examples...
e
On worklights. Many try to make home improvement worklights into something their never going to be. Softlights, fresnels, flos, eyelights and one and on. Here is what those fixtures are: broads. A broad might seem a great fixture for many applications. And it is! If you have vast amounts of grip equipment to place between it and your subject. Mole Richardson, who knows more than anyone about lighting, describes a broad as this.
I disagree about the generalization that professional results haven't been achieved with lesser fixtures. To the contrary, I see plenty of resourceful products that effectively came "from the garage". Often, these are items that were kit-bashed by an electrician or grip or camera operator for a specific show requirement. As examples...
- LitePanels
- Kino Flo
- Nooklights
- China Lanterns
e
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Hi Erik:
I created my own Kino Divas from scratch so I too do this. I was specifically referring to $50.00 yellow Home Depot worklights, which is what most newbies want to buy to shoot their big epic with.
I have seen lots of good looking work with China balls, pancakes, book lights and other forms of homemade illumination, but nothing great looking with Home Depot worklights.
Dan
Agreed sir! I think you can do anything with almost anything. For projects like these shorts you see in the DVXUser festivals, an "any tool will do" mentality helps get the job done. And filmmaking is one of the quickest ways to learning the craft of filmmaking.
The little Home Depot broads are exactly what they are and get you what they're going to get you. Throw $400 worth of grip in front of each one and you might get a little more!
Say, what the hell happened to the set? It's over there, behind the wall of flags!
e
The little Home Depot broads are exactly what they are and get you what they're going to get you. Throw $400 worth of grip in front of each one and you might get a little more!
Say, what the hell happened to the set? It's over there, behind the wall of flags!
e