I can't believe this even an argument. I mean the P2 detractors are kidding right? I mean for crying out silently! They don't remember when 4gig hard drives were huge? 32 megs of ram? 8meg flash cards? So where are we today? 400 gig hard drives/4 gigs of ram/P4/Intel duo core/1gig flash cards etc. This is the most asinine argument ever. Their brethern lurk in many similiar artistic genres, the same people who said you can't record a hit record on ProTools at its inception, the same photographers who would never shoot digital and guess what they not shoot digital. P2 will be fine, even Darwin could see it coming when he first formulated natural selection. I have a lot of respect for WG but damn take a chill pill! I'll see if my wife won't be so kind as to offer prescriptions of prozac to those so overly emotional about something they are not interested in owning.
Crazy discussions at dv.com
- Thread starter smelni
- Start date
MattC
Veteran
cinebuddy said:
Did you read my post?
As an example, I'm a photographer. I shoot digital whenever I can. But if you're a working commercial pro you still have to shoot positive slide film, often medium format. Not because it's what you want to use, but because it's what clients demand. They are set up to handle film. Their proofing workflow is set up to handle film, their printers are set up to handle film. Do they have to be this way? No. Are they changing? Slowly...
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jeffyjones
Well-known member
I think his point was that he was establishing credibility. Also, I do remember the picture in DV magazine, and that's what led to my comment. It surprised me.tuface said:
xray
Well-known member
Barry_Green said:
Nothing new heard.
1) I know that, but is doesnt count. Editing direct from P2 is slow in a normal situation. I edited years with tape to tape...no computer needed, nothing new here.
2)It takes 2x the real time to offload the P2 to the P2 store if shooting 1080P. That is where my time is expensive: the recording. We are not in the studio, we are in the field. The offload speed in the studio depends not only on the HD raidsystem but the reading times from the P2 card too.
3) working with P2 costs more money during the shooting proces, (expensive short recording time cards) is timeconsuming in the combination of off loading the cards, and back up the disks. You need to make a copy to harddisk for clients and bill them for it.
"Using P2 moves the effort of backup/archive to the end of the project, when you're done and your deadline is met and your invoice is sent."
Dont get that, I always backup before I start with a project and before the deadline and billing the client, what if it is going wrong?
You know as an engineer I'm reading some totally way out there stuff here, Xray at least seems to know what's what.
Just look at one simple statement:
1) P2 is faster and more reliable than tape. Totally agree.
2) Yes P2 is expensive so you copy it to a HD as you go. Just negated point 1)
And another line of reasoning:
1) Just think of P2 as a transfer medium like film only cheaper.
Yes but:
1) You can archive camera neg, don't need to do anything other than store it right and it'll last an aweful long time at no additional cost.
2) So it's a transfer medium, transfer to what and why not record directly to what you're going to transfer it to in the first place. The transfer medium argument would hold water IF you could afford to keep a whole days shooting on P2 cards and transfer overnight.
Compare any of the proposed P2 workflows to the XL H1 with the Wafian recorder, direct to disk with backup via RAID 1, enough space to hold a days shooting, superior 10bit encoding compared to DVCPro HD.
At the moment the Wafian is expensive althoug compared to enough P2 cards to hold a days shooting perhaps not that expensive but there's nothing in the box to stop it being sold for under $5K given high demand.
So you don't like the image from the XL H1, fine, each to his own. I cannot see any reason why this cannot be made to work with the HVX200, just needs someone to work out how to get HD SDI our of the camera, you could use the component outputs but HD SDI is much more convenient.
Just look at one simple statement:
1) P2 is faster and more reliable than tape. Totally agree.
2) Yes P2 is expensive so you copy it to a HD as you go. Just negated point 1)
And another line of reasoning:
1) Just think of P2 as a transfer medium like film only cheaper.
Yes but:
1) You can archive camera neg, don't need to do anything other than store it right and it'll last an aweful long time at no additional cost.
2) So it's a transfer medium, transfer to what and why not record directly to what you're going to transfer it to in the first place. The transfer medium argument would hold water IF you could afford to keep a whole days shooting on P2 cards and transfer overnight.
Compare any of the proposed P2 workflows to the XL H1 with the Wafian recorder, direct to disk with backup via RAID 1, enough space to hold a days shooting, superior 10bit encoding compared to DVCPro HD.
At the moment the Wafian is expensive althoug compared to enough P2 cards to hold a days shooting perhaps not that expensive but there's nothing in the box to stop it being sold for under $5K given high demand.
So you don't like the image from the XL H1, fine, each to his own. I cannot see any reason why this cannot be made to work with the HVX200, just needs someone to work out how to get HD SDI our of the camera, you could use the component outputs but HD SDI is much more convenient.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Why engage so much much energy and emotion into something that one does not have an interest or is not apt to use ? I see tons of people (Not anyone specific fellas) repeatedly expressing the negative side of P2 technology (And/or the HVX)
Why ? Why invest yourself in a negative so handidly ?
Why ? Why invest yourself in a negative so handidly ?
jeffyjones
Well-known member
It's an age-old question. Why do Mac and Linux people proclaim they use the best OS in the world? Why do people say the Cleveland Browns rule? No one really knows for sure. 
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
LOL ......................................
Barry_Green
Moderator
Ah, but that's actually the opposite. At least they're being fans of something (right or wrong); they're not just trying to tear something else down. They're acting positively; whereas what John was talking about is why would someone spend so much time negatively?
Simon Wyndham
Well-known member
I don't really find pointing out the drawbacks to a system as being negative. I see it as being realistic. In a professional workflow where the footage is valuable these are real concerns.
Indisputable facts;
1. Offloading footage to a HDD or computer before wiping the original footage *IS* risky.
2. Offloading 1080 footage with verification is much slower than realtime (and if you transfer without veritifcation then you are taking an added risk). So what happened to the speed advantage? If I shot an hour of footage that would mean I would have to have spent 2 hours offloading it *on location*!
3. P2 is an expensive storage medium all things considered.
4. If Panasonic recommends Blu-Ray etc as a backup device, it seems silly not to record to such a medium in the first place. All you are doing is adding an extra step. Well, two extra steps if you count offloading footage during the day. No amount of reasoning can seriously make such a workflow seem more efficient than tape, and I'm amazed some people are trying to say just this!
Most do not have a problem with the camera head. But the practicalities of P2 are of huge concern. Especially if the manufacturer in question is seemingly moving their entire camera line over to this storage format. That doesn't leave an awful lot of choice for people, and from what I can see Panasonic is gradually putting all their eggs in one basket.
Indisputable facts;
1. Offloading footage to a HDD or computer before wiping the original footage *IS* risky.
2. Offloading 1080 footage with verification is much slower than realtime (and if you transfer without veritifcation then you are taking an added risk). So what happened to the speed advantage? If I shot an hour of footage that would mean I would have to have spent 2 hours offloading it *on location*!
3. P2 is an expensive storage medium all things considered.
4. If Panasonic recommends Blu-Ray etc as a backup device, it seems silly not to record to such a medium in the first place. All you are doing is adding an extra step. Well, two extra steps if you count offloading footage during the day. No amount of reasoning can seriously make such a workflow seem more efficient than tape, and I'm amazed some people are trying to say just this!
Most do not have a problem with the camera head. But the practicalities of P2 are of huge concern. Especially if the manufacturer in question is seemingly moving their entire camera line over to this storage format. That doesn't leave an awful lot of choice for people, and from what I can see Panasonic is gradually putting all their eggs in one basket.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Pointing out drawbacks, when asked, is realistic. Going on a "jihad" about it is where some people start scratching their heads.Simon Wyndham said:
Which will proceed to be disputed, of coure...
rogar-BigGrin(DBG) No, wiping your footage before verifying it is risky. Offloading isn't risky at all.
And there's risk in all situations. You just have to manage it. There's risk in crossing the street, there's risk every time you get in your car. So far I haven't encountered a single issue at all, and I've been using this thing for four months.
This shows a misunderstanding of how the system works. Offloading happens in the background, on a laptop or a P2 store, while you continue working on something else. It's a transparent process. Only someone who's too poor to afford a second card (or a fool) would stop their whole production just to offload footage. In a real production scenario you'll have more than one card, and one will be offloading transparently while you shoot with the other one.
And, in any sort of dramatic narrative circumstance, that card will be done offloading well well well ahead of when you need it. I shot five days of intense production schedule with just two 4gb cards, and I never waited one second on the card, it was always ready to go when I was.
And, of course, I was ready to edit immediately, instead of having a box of tapes to hassle with at the end of the production. You ask "where did the speed advantage go?" I don't have to ask, because I'm actually using the system and I can point to the speed advantage every time I use it.
That's because it's not a storage medium. It's a temporary container. The storage medium is typically hard disks, and those aren't expensive at all, they're substantially less expensive than DVCPRO-HD tape.
Consider this enormously disputed. This is like saying "if you're backing up to tape, why not shoot on tape in the first place?" As a user of a tapeless system yourself, surely you can see the silliness in that argument.
If one wanted to shoot to blu-ray, one would have to accept the limitations that blu-ray imposes (such as 35 megabit transfer rate, which limits you to either MPEG-2 or DV/DVCAM). No thank you. No thanks at all. The reason we embrace P2 is because it is fast, it is non-linear, it is everything that blu-ray acquisition isn't. Blu-ray acquisition is, basically, a big flat circular tape. Its only real acquiescence to "tapeless" is that in playback you can jump from clip to clip, but other than that it's pretty much the same as tape. Same workflow, still need a deck, still need to digitize, etc. P2 isn't like that. It's very different, and it works as a nonlinear acquisition device.
Your argument mirrors the argument of HDV shooters, who say "if you're broadcasting in MPEG-2, why not acquire in the same format?" And there are legions of reasons, all primarily centering around the notion that MPEG-2 makes for a fair-to-middling delivery system, but it makes for a lousy acquisition format and a truly hideous editing format.
There are very good reasons why one would acquire in one format and deliver in another. And there are very very good reasons why one would acquire on one medium and deliver in another, and archive in another. Use each for what it does best, rather than trying to shoehorn functions into something that's not really suited for it.
Well, this is where theoretical discussion and reality are going to have to agree to disagree. Shooting on P2 beats the living hell out of working with tape. And nearly everyone who gets an HVX and posts their initial review usually says "I never want to see a tape again."
It may not work for your workflow, and that's okay. But you have to understand that for some of us it's very very workable, it's delightful, and it's preferable, and we like it, and we turn around our projects quicker and enjoy working with it. And that should be okay with you.
It's new, yes. And so people are curious, yes. That doesn't mean it's bad or it doesn't work though, and some people are trying to grasp at whatever straws they can to make that connection. Sorry, but in the real world among those of us who actually use it and who have paid our cameras off multiple times already even after owning them only a couple of months, these are not "huge concerns." They're pretty minor, actually. You just have to re-orient yourself towards the concept of nonlinear acquisition, rather than linear acquisition. And for some people and some types of shoots it won't work. For those people, there are alternatives (XDCAM and HDV, for example). But for those of us for whom the workflow works, it works very well thank you very much.
As a Sony owner I can see why you'd say that, but as a thankful escapee from the Sony system I can say that I'm rather glad Panasonic's going the way they are. Sony has a history of developing and discarding new formats quicker than anyone should be comfortable with. BetaSX? MPEG-IMX? HDCAM? HDCAM SR? HDV? Digital-8? MicroMV? XDCAM? XDCAM HD? DVCAM? 8mm? Hi-8mm? DigiBeta? BetaSP? ED-Beta? Which will be here next year? Next week? Seems like you're always needing a new deck if you want to keep up with Sony.
Whereas with the Panasonic approach, that's all eliminated. Everything goes to the same card, and that card can be read by any computer. Totally eliminating the deck concept. Supporting a new format is as simple as downloading a new codec. If they introduce a new HD-D5 P2 camera, all you need to do is make sure your editing software is up to date. You don't have to go buying a $9,000 XDCAM-HD deck to support the new format, because the new format is on the same memory card you've been using! It's a computer data file. It doesn't need any hardware to support it, now or ever. No new investment. No new decks. No obsolete products. No format incompatibilities. No post-house hassles. And because they so thoroughly over-engineered the card, it'll support plenty of new formats. JPEG-2000? No problem. MPEG-2? Could if they wanted to. H.264? Easy. Whatever they want to do, they can, as long as it fits under 640mbps (and even HDCAM-SR fits under 640mbps!) So just imagine -- what if they put out 35 megabit H.264? You'd get twice the quality as compared to XDCAM HD at the same bandwidth, and you'd get three times as much recording time per card as compared to DVCPRO-HD. Let's say the 16-gig cards are out; now you're recording around 50 minutes of 35-megabit H.264 on one card? 100 minutes in-camera? That's hard to argue with. And you'd get 20x realtime transfers to the editing system (assuming offloading to a fast RAID.) Sounds pretty good to me, especially when XDCAM HD chugs along at 1x realtime. Twice the quality at 1/20 the wait? With no editing-equipment obsolescence ever again? What's not to love?
Seems like a quite sound strategy to me, and one that broadcasters will probably adopt very rapidly, especially as card capacity grows. If Sony pulls one more BetaSX fiasco, I think you'll see a lot of broadcasters being very open to the P2 concept.
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J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
And yes; I make reference to the 'P2 Holy War Simon. Examing and discussing is one thing; but going off on tangents and soapboxes are another; get a life.
I would'nt use Premiere if my life depended on it; so what. I'm not gonna run around every forum I can find and scream about the pitfalls of the NLE
But hey, that's just me. I am not insane.
--
I think if one sees negatives in it they should be onboard the 'solutions' team.
If not interested; go away.
I would'nt use Premiere if my life depended on it; so what. I'm not gonna run around every forum I can find and scream about the pitfalls of the NLE
But hey, that's just me. I am not insane.
--
I think if one sees negatives in it they should be onboard the 'solutions' team.
If not interested; go away.
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xray
Well-known member
John_Hudson said:
If not interested, stay away? You only want "me too" people here? Every working individual can express his opinion, not all the industry brings up is useful or needed and has its drawbacks. Name it. If your only submission is `LOL`or `Yes super' you are no helpfull in any way.
Tapeless is the future, I like it, but tapeless is not equal to P2. We all can express what we think of it, you may offend.
I sense a cultural conflict here I have lived in NYC, Germany, Italy and Greece and sometimes It gets tricky. I believe nobody will like this post, but anyway
From a European point of view, telling someone to keep his opinion to himself if you don't like it or anything similar is highly offensive. Same for laughing at someone or employing irony when you are discussing something. Especially if you are in a position of power (employer, supervisor or even a priviledge like being a moderator in a board). I'm not refering to Hudson personally, but this is something that has happened in this board. This is considered highly abusive for a European. Something you wouldn't want to do to an Italian face to face! But I have seen Americans have increddible tolerance to these matters and even encourage the bad thing when it happens.
Europeans find it perfectly acceptable to disagree, even if they share an opinion with a 1% minority. Americans usually avoid that and go with the flow. I have seen people apologise for perfectly vallid opinion on this board. Just for diplomatic reasons? I guess. Americans also jump easily into massive attacks (many against one person) but since there are more kids from the USA that's a logical thing Europeans avoid that. They find it pointless and an offensive thing to do. Europeans actually have much respect for people that disagree with them, even if they know the person that disagrees with them is wrong. It is something that is actually encouraged in european culture.
We'd better put a little water in our wine. (Don't know if the proverb translates to English but it's an interesting one.)
I have lived in NYC, Germany, Italy and Greece and sometimes It gets tricky. I believe nobody will like this post, but anywayFrom a European point of view, telling someone to keep his opinion to himself if you don't like it or anything similar is highly offensive. Same for laughing at someone or employing irony when you are discussing something. Especially if you are in a position of power (employer, supervisor or even a priviledge like being a moderator in a board). I'm not refering to Hudson personally, but this is something that has happened in this board. This is considered highly abusive for a European. Something you wouldn't want to do to an Italian face to face! But I have seen Americans have increddible tolerance to these matters and even encourage the bad thing when it happens.
Europeans find it perfectly acceptable to disagree, even if they share an opinion with a 1% minority. Americans usually avoid that and go with the flow. I have seen people apologise for perfectly vallid opinion on this board. Just for diplomatic reasons? I guess. Americans also jump easily into massive attacks (many against one person) but since there are more kids from the USA that's a logical thing
Europeans avoid that. They find it pointless and an offensive thing to do. Europeans actually have much respect for people that disagree with them, even if they know the person that disagrees with them is wrong. It is something that is actually encouraged in european culture.We'd better put a little water in our wine. (Don't know if the proverb translates to English but it's an interesting one.)
ChuckS
Veteran
Thanks to the explosive growth of personal color printers and desktop publishing the world now consumes about one third more paper than it did in 1984, not less. So much for the paperless office but you made your point very well.MattC said:
limo991 said:
There’s little doubt that cultural differences occasionally arise on this forum, although limo991 I’m not sure I agree with your characterization of Americans but hey it’s a cultural thing. I would also add that there are generational differences too. There are a lot of young people on this forum who are just plain full of “piss and vinegar” and will argue their point to the death. :nads:
That’s OK too isn’t it?
This forum tends to be myopic and you can literally watch the changing tide, seven or eight months ago Mac’s sucked and today they’re golden. What changed? Well the HVX came out and Barry and Jerrod discovered you couldn’t edit DVCProHD on a PC so they switched to FCP. :badputer: Nothing wrong with that, they became enlightened [and were drawn to the dark side]. But remember some on this forum were enlightened to tapeless production more than twenty years ago, its not as new as you think.
It seems that on this forum the real debate is made when we don’t agree on issues. :kali: One thing that I noticed Barry pointed out in his defense of P2 is that “Everything goes to the same card, and that card can be read by any computer,” not true today unless you meant to say that the computer’s a Mac with FCP. I love the concept of a tapeless environment but P2 is just the beginning and we all need to figure out how to embrace and debate our differences in a civilized way. :furious3:
Remember, the perfect bureaucrat in every country and on every forum is the person who manages to make no decisions and escapes all responsibility…lol :banned: