Barry_Green
Moderator
That would be a theoretical maximum, transferring 25mbps DV at 640mbps to a multi-disk SATA RAID.MattC said:
For HD footage at 100mbps, the theoretical maximum would be 6.4x realtime.
Crazy discussions at dv.com
- Thread starter smelni
- Start date
For HD footage at 100mbps, the theoretical maximum would be 6.4x realtime.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Me too, David. I wasn't ragging on what you were saying, I was just presenting the other side of things.
Yes there are issues with P2, such as short recording times. Someday those issues will fade away, but right now it means having to work around that. And yes it means offloading. Someday we'll have 128gb cards and will have 10 hours of storage in the camera, plus another 15 hours on the CinePorter, and offloading will become a non-event.
So I know where you're coming from, and I'm not denigrating tape (too much, this time); I recognize that there are some circumstances where tape would be the superior choice even if it means lesser footage.
All I was pointing out is that there are huge, massive differences between the two.
We all wish for what you said -- the ability to pick up a 128gb P2 card for $30 at Wal-Mart or Best Buy would be ideal. But that day's not here yet, so we have to choose between one and the other.
Fortunately we do have two to choose from.
Yes there are issues with P2, such as short recording times. Someday those issues will fade away, but right now it means having to work around that. And yes it means offloading. Someday we'll have 128gb cards and will have 10 hours of storage in the camera, plus another 15 hours on the CinePorter, and offloading will become a non-event.
So I know where you're coming from, and I'm not denigrating tape (too much, this time); I recognize that there are some circumstances where tape would be the superior choice even if it means lesser footage.
All I was pointing out is that there are huge, massive differences between the two.
We all wish for what you said -- the ability to pick up a 128gb P2 card for $30 at Wal-Mart or Best Buy would be ideal. But that day's not here yet, so we have to choose between one and the other.
Fortunately we do have two to choose from.
smelni
Veteran
Ill jump in having started this thread - didnt realize it would get so hot.
EVERY technology has pluses and minuses - i think that it makes sense to POINT out minuses but not dwell on them - instead come up with solutions.
I will be shooting a feature on the hvx - We will be limited to an 11 minute mag. We will immediatley offload to a usb drive connected to a laptop while using the other card. Then we will back up to 2 dvds (conveniently about 4 gigs) from different stocks - do i wish it were simpler - yes - have we solved the issues - yes - do we need a loader yes. DONE - we have a workable workflow.
By the time we get to editing I am certain there will be better NLE support.
The thread that really got me at dv.com is the one about how many times you can reuse a card before it is worthless. Come on now - noone will be using up 11 minutes 4 times an hour every hour for a feature - if you do then you could have prepped better - so the 3 month card (as claimed there) will last sooooo much longer. Oh yeah - and if the hvx recorded to tape how many times would you have to replace the HD head for that much shooting - the logic just doesnt hold.
Lets all get out there and solve the issues and then we all can benefit from the pluses that the hvx and P2 offers- conversely we can all sit here an whine about what doesnt and move on to the next thing that doesnt ad naseum.
AHHHHHHH - i feel better now
EVERY technology has pluses and minuses - i think that it makes sense to POINT out minuses but not dwell on them - instead come up with solutions.
I will be shooting a feature on the hvx - We will be limited to an 11 minute mag. We will immediatley offload to a usb drive connected to a laptop while using the other card. Then we will back up to 2 dvds (conveniently about 4 gigs) from different stocks - do i wish it were simpler - yes - have we solved the issues - yes - do we need a loader yes. DONE - we have a workable workflow.
By the time we get to editing I am certain there will be better NLE support.
The thread that really got me at dv.com is the one about how many times you can reuse a card before it is worthless. Come on now - noone will be using up 11 minutes 4 times an hour every hour for a feature - if you do then you could have prepped better - so the 3 month card (as claimed there) will last sooooo much longer. Oh yeah - and if the hvx recorded to tape how many times would you have to replace the HD head for that much shooting - the logic just doesnt hold.
Lets all get out there and solve the issues and then we all can benefit from the pluses that the hvx and P2 offers- conversely we can all sit here an whine about what doesnt and move on to the next thing that doesnt ad naseum.
AHHHHHHH - i feel better now
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
contentlab said:
wabbit
Evil has Ears
MattC said:
I think this has been the issue all along. People are screaming for this cheap HD, yet I still don't see the professional demand increasing that much; maybe 5 or 10 percent in the last year. And those professional demands are paying the $1000 bucks a day for a Varicam rental.
I remember when I first heard of the HVX in December 2004. There was a protype mock up that looked like a super 8 cam with a flip down handle at the bottom. Estimated retail cost: $10,000. I was floored. DVCPROHD for $10,000? (only 2 and 4gb P2 cards back then selling for over $2000). Figured $16,000 to shoot out the door. A year later and the price is basically half that. If you can't make a profit with that then your customers are deluded.
No new lights or sound equipment is needed to get an HD shoot off the ground; just the camera, monitors, and storage (some need to upgrade their edit suite). Even if you just charge $300 a day extra for HD, you are in the green in less then 6 months. Not many camera owners at any level can say that.
Never in the history of video production have their been so many complaints about price over a format that you can get for 10 percent of what you could a year ago. The HVX is no Varicam but the DVX is not a SDX either. People found a way to make their DVX profitable.
There is certainly a lot to be figured out with the P2 workflow but the price and capacity is what is. Look at the cold facts and figure out if it works for you. If it doesn't, move on. Too many options out there right now to complain about why one option doesn't fit you.
This is not directed at David S (seriously, this has nothing to do with your legit concerns) but at those that continue to ***** about P2 like cheap HD is their birth right. I just don't buy it anymore that they are perplexed about the workflow, they just want to believe HDV is the one true path and it frustrates them that an alternative might be better. HDV might be the best choice for some, it just isn't for everyone. Learn to deal with a world that doesn't have one solution for every situation.
If you see a poster prostelytizing that HDV makes more sense since tape is cheap with long record times, ask why they don't take the added costs of a new deck, super fast NLE, slow renders, fragile codec, 1/2 second long dropouts, compressed audio, long digitizing time, and continued headwear maintenance into account. They don't because the Anti-Panasonic/P2 cult is just as strong, if not stronger, then any Panny cult. And they do seem to all gather over at DV.com, headed by...well if you have read the posts over there, their leader and his motives are obvious.
If you are confused over some part of P2, then ask a question, don't attack the technolgy; it is what is. My PC frustrates the hell out of me sometimes but I don't bag the whole "computer technology" thing because my PC won't rub my feet.
/rant off, sorry but come on this is getting sooooo old.
Cheers
thefilmaddict
Veteran
I read the two recent P2 posts at DV.com. I added my thoughts on the subject, but I'm not sure if I could change anyones opinion over there. Many really seem to enjoy trashing P2. Some of them had some reasonable complaints that I agree(d) with, but many went way overboard.
Some make fun of this site for blindly following Panasonic (I've made fun of a few blind Panasonic followers myself), but after visitng DV.com, I wonder if they own stock in HDV tapes?
Some make fun of this site for blindly following Panasonic (I've made fun of a few blind Panasonic followers myself), but after visitng DV.com, I wonder if they own stock in HDV tapes?
Barry_Green
Moderator
They certainly do seem to enjoy trashing it over there, yes. Not quite sure why, but to each his own. All I know is that after landing this gig to work on a national broadcast show for one of the top-five-largest real estate companies in the world, all to be shot on the HVX & P2 in Las Vegas, New York and (maybe) Hawaii, um... well, they can rant if they want, the proof is in the pudding. And the pudding is the HVX which has now paid for itself twice over. And it's only February.
So there's those who use it (like documentary filmmaker and 3-time Sundance award winner and Independent Spirit award winner and Los Angeles Film Critics award-winner Marc Singer, currently making a doc about his experience while he's imbedded with the Marines in a North Carolina training facility before shipping out to Afghanistan and Iraq; or the BBC using it to shoot all their ENG coverage of the 2006 Olympics, or Evin Grant doing a national commercial for ProFlowers.com, or two-time Cannes winner and Independent Spirit Award winner and Sundance winner Kevin Smith, or the over 200 television stations shooting on P2 now, or Jay Nemeth DP'ing a national show on the HVX/P2 for the afore-mentioned top-five real estate company in the country, or the HVX being used in the middle-eastern theatrical release of Spielberg's "Munich", or Kevin Railsback of PawPrint Productions shooting astoundingly amazing stock footage in the woods of Minnesota, or Emmy-winning cinematographer Mike Single shooting with the HVX/P2 system at the South Pole)...
... and then there are those who gripe about it.
But I don't see those who use it doing a lot of griping about it.
And I kind of like the credentials of those who are using it and not griping about it.
So there's those who use it (like documentary filmmaker and 3-time Sundance award winner and Independent Spirit award winner and Los Angeles Film Critics award-winner Marc Singer, currently making a doc about his experience while he's imbedded with the Marines in a North Carolina training facility before shipping out to Afghanistan and Iraq; or the BBC using it to shoot all their ENG coverage of the 2006 Olympics, or Evin Grant doing a national commercial for ProFlowers.com, or two-time Cannes winner and Independent Spirit Award winner and Sundance winner Kevin Smith, or the over 200 television stations shooting on P2 now, or Jay Nemeth DP'ing a national show on the HVX/P2 for the afore-mentioned top-five real estate company in the country, or the HVX being used in the middle-eastern theatrical release of Spielberg's "Munich", or Kevin Railsback of PawPrint Productions shooting astoundingly amazing stock footage in the woods of Minnesota, or Emmy-winning cinematographer Mike Single shooting with the HVX/P2 system at the South Pole)...
... and then there are those who gripe about it.
But I don't see those who use it doing a lot of griping about it.
And I kind of like the credentials of those who are using it and not griping about it.
Zack Birlew
Veteran
Man, with such an impressive early resume for the HVX, I guess the only thing to say to HDV-based cameras is:
OWNED
OWNED
MattC
Veteran
LOL!
I figure that should end it right there...
Let's put it this way. I went to Africa to do pre pro on a potential doc. I could have been back there filming it by now. I've told the money cats that if it's to be done it's to be done on the HVX (you do NOT want to packpack around the Foutah with an XL2 - trust me). So I'm waiting. And if they decide not to do it, and I self fund it, it'll still be with the HVX.... But it'll take longer....
Matt
I figure that should end it right there...
Let's put it this way. I went to Africa to do pre pro on a potential doc. I could have been back there filming it by now. I've told the money cats that if it's to be done it's to be done on the HVX (you do NOT want to packpack around the Foutah with an XL2 - trust me). So I'm waiting. And if they decide not to do it, and I self fund it, it'll still be with the HVX.... But it'll take longer....
Matt
wabbit
Evil has Ears
It seems really obvious to me what is going on at DV.com. There is basically one guy who has it in for Panasonic/P2. He constantly complains about Panasonic's marketing as if the other three cameramakers don't market their own solutions. Or more to the point, as if everyone, other then himself, are children that just soak up whatever is told to us by Panasonic or any company for that matter. DVCPRO is actually 3:1.5:1.5 instead of 4:2:2??? Come on, this is so obviously an attempt to degrade that which he does not approve of. Not that it really makes a difference either way, but come on, get a life.
Point out his bias and he whips out his credentials like that somehow makes him "fair and balanced". If his internet connection would go down for a month, that anti-P2 propreganda would pretty much disappear. It's completely fair to make the weaknesses of P2 or the HVX obvious to potential users but this guy and his minions take it to a religious extreme.
Basically, I can't stand to wade through all the BS over there anymore. While dvxuser does get it's share of trolling, most of the regulars here are able to fight their rantings with mostly impartial facts. Frankly, I am seriously impressed with how unbias the admins in here are.
I can certainly understand to an outsider that dvxuser.com appears bias, and to a small extent that is accurate. But the stuff on DV.com is embarrassing mis-informative and inflammatory. To those looking for a middle ground, DVinfo.net seems to have an equal amount of pro and con P2 people. You get the same info as here but less trolling. I think the name, DVXUser, just paints a target here for anti-Panasonic trolling.
At least that is how I see it.
Point out his bias and he whips out his credentials like that somehow makes him "fair and balanced". If his internet connection would go down for a month, that anti-P2 propreganda would pretty much disappear. It's completely fair to make the weaknesses of P2 or the HVX obvious to potential users but this guy and his minions take it to a religious extreme.
Basically, I can't stand to wade through all the BS over there anymore. While dvxuser does get it's share of trolling, most of the regulars here are able to fight their rantings with mostly impartial facts. Frankly, I am seriously impressed with how unbias the admins in here are.
I can certainly understand to an outsider that dvxuser.com appears bias, and to a small extent that is accurate. But the stuff on DV.com is embarrassing mis-informative and inflammatory. To those looking for a middle ground, DVinfo.net seems to have an equal amount of pro and con P2 people. You get the same info as here but less trolling. I think the name, DVXUser, just paints a target here for anti-Panasonic trolling.
At least that is how I see it.
jeffyjones
Well-known member
Wow... that is an impressive list. And it's funny that Kevin Smith would dive into the digital world, because I saw him on an interview on the former TechTV's Screensavers about two years ago, and the host (Patrick Norton) asked him if he planned to experiment more with digital the way Robert Rodriguez had been doing. Smith simply said, "It's called a film for a reason." I suppose he changed his mind.Barry_Green said:
The funny thing is, the HD capability for the closet indie film person inside of me is almost secondary to the fact that I can shoot DVCPRO and DVCPRO 50, which in my area is reason enough to own a camera like this!
Zig_Zigman
Well-known member
Hey where was the HVX footage in "Munich"? I must have missed that.
Mr. Blonde said:
While the sentiment has been harsh over at DV.com you need to check your facts, percentage wise much more of that community is made up of working professionals than over here at DVXuser where it is much more of a melting pot. I would say most the guys at DV.com are high-end freelancers or working at decent sized production companies. You certainly dont have to agree with what they say but they are an educated, older, well-paid, working crowd...moreso than any forum but maybe cinematography.net
ash =o)
evinsky
Well-known member
I shot 55Gb of music video footage today on P2. Offloading to a Raid 5 drive via Powebook. No glitches no dropouts instant non linear playback, ("Hey what was the framing on that last close up?" Bang! head n' shoulders "cool match it!") never got into a situation where I wasn't standing by with a fresh card. End of the day I transferred the footage to the editor's firewire drive and I keep the project on my Raid drive till they have it secure on their server. No problem, no misunderstanding... NO LOGGING!
I will never go back to tape if i can help it!
The exec. producer came up to me and said he had never left a shoot feeling so confident in the footage shot.
I'm pretty sure I'll get a call back.
E.
Oh and I have another national spot shooting on the HVX next month.
I will never go back to tape if i can help it!
The exec. producer came up to me and said he had never left a shoot feeling so confident in the footage shot.
I'm pretty sure I'll get a call back.
E.
Oh and I have another national spot shooting on the HVX next month.
I think it is a matter of perspective. The people at DV.com and others like myself are approaching P2 with a different set of requirements. Have you guys been to any Panny meetings or middle-man Panny reps about P2? It is very intriguing but what you learn is that it is not really as fast as you think and the cost is much more than just the cards. To incorporate p2 into a professional workflow with redundant back-up and weekly back-up to digital tape (recommended by every person I have talked to) you are looking at $20K. I think that is what people are responding to... the excitement of $6000 HD tempered with the $20k you need to make it solid and SAFE.
All that being said... I think the HVX will find a way to succeed without P2. Direct to an external Raid5 or something... too many people want it. In most environments you will still need a tape back-up like the new one they just started pushing... is it made by Quantum Barry? The one with 300GB tapes for $100. I think the tape drive is around $8k right? That seems like the most solid archival solution.
ash =o)
All that being said... I think the HVX will find a way to succeed without P2. Direct to an external Raid5 or something... too many people want it. In most environments you will still need a tape back-up like the new one they just started pushing... is it made by Quantum Barry? The one with 300GB tapes for $100. I think the tape drive is around $8k right? That seems like the most solid archival solution.
ash =o)
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
AshG said:
I perceive that evinsky is stoked.
What are these requirments that are so different than the rest of the planet ?
(I'm not baiting you Ash; I'm curious at what this means)