Crazy discussions at dv.com

And let's not forget about Walter's sources. He always has an unnamed inside "source" who gives him all the dirt on P2 - from manufacturing to availability.
 
You guys ever hear Walter quote sales statistics from major retailers like B&H as if they confide in him because it gives them a real edge in the business world~! -If you believed Walter, you would believe that B&H has sold something like 75,000 XL2's----Walter is one of the great embelishers----usually a sign of extremely low self-esteem.
 
Actually Walter Graff has said the hvx is a really good camera. However he feels there are issues with the P2 workflow.

And he didn't claim Adam Wilt was a shill, he merely pointed out that reviewing camera equipment for publications that receive advertising revenue from the companies that manufacture that equipment puts the reviewer between the devil and the deep blue sea.

I don't know why you guys beat up on walter all the time. I think he's cool. that's why I've constructed a small shrine in his honor in my basement.
 
Sirs, I suggest it is inappropriate to talk smack about someone who is banned from the forum. If the person (whoever they are) cannot respond, then maybe it's better to leave them out, or go to where they can respond.

As far as P2, it has never been that big a concern for me. When I look at the type of indie film I'd be using it for, it makes sense. My main concern is getting the best image I can within the budget possible. If I can get great quality out of a cam, I'll put up with the inconvienience of having to take an extra step in archiving.

The early adopters of this cam will have the toughest time with P2. It only is going to get easier with the Firestore, Blu-Ray, easier NLE support etc... and eventually all this palaver over P2 will be laughed at. :thumbsup:

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't see how analysing P2 now is too relevant (although I'm no technexpert). The cam exists. Panasonic has invested huge resources into P2. I doubt they will say "Ohh some people don't like it. Stop the conveyor belt. Get those cams back here". P2 is here to stay for the foreseeable future. Lets make it work. Lets make it work betta.

Sometimes I wish I could drink a tech expert lager, and not have to investigate all this stuff myself (it would be like riding a bike). I'd much rather just concentrate on story, directing, acting and finding a babe. Unfortunately, I'm virtually a one man shop, so I am forced to wade into these tech jungles.

Cheers :beer:
 
oh its ok to talk smack about walter... he goes around everywhere else and talks smack about us :) hee hee hee.

as for riding a bike.. i used to race mountain bikes and trust me, i spent just as much tiime investigating... when its your profession you gotta do what you can, or have enough money to hire someone else to do the research for you.
 
Ha. I guess I should have prefaced, "non-crazy downhill mud everywhere bikes" :)

Don't get me wrong, research is great. It's just not as efficient for me. The trick is making a living doing what I love, researching how to get the best product to my distributors (until I have enough moolah to hire someone like you), and not letting the creative stuff suffer along the way. Somewhere in there I need to find a new babe, who'll put up with me in this crazy entrepreneurial career, and maybe join me in a :bath: (I've been looking to slip that smilie in).

Maybe you could put a warning "tech talk may be addictive". Instead of rewriting my script, I'm engrossed in pixel shift offset APT DPT somethin' or other :)

Congrats on making the jump to L.A. My ex-girl just moved there to work for a major rental house. If only I knew she was going and the discount , with her :crybaby:

as for riding a bike.. i used to race mountain bikes and trust me, i spent just as much tiime investigating... when its your profession you gotta do what you can, or have enough money to hire someone else to do the research for you
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D_and_G said:
Somewhere in there I need to find a new babe, who'll put up with me in this crazy entrepreneurial career, and maybe join me in a :bath: (I've been looking to slip that smilie in).
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First the bike riding, and now the 'girl in the tub'?
Are you making fun of Jarred again?
:)
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
I think you are outstandingly misinformed and need to go back to the article as we posted it. The pixel offset chart is what the effective pixels are when the DSP captures the image at 1080P, doesn't matter how you slice it, that is the fact. It is not captured at 540. Anyone that keeps pointing to the 540, does not understand the impact of the offset, and thus are just spreading misinformation. It is from the 1080P/60P or soon in PAL land 50P that all other images are taken.

As far as it being 4:2:2, it is longstanding that DVCPRO HD is 4:2:2 and this camera records 4:2:2 DVCPRO HD.
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Jan, evrything that Limo991 has posted is fundamentally true, and these remarks about chroma resolution being less than luminance are spot on - that is intrinsic to the principles behind the theory of pixel shift.

Yes, indeed "it is longstanding that DVCPRO HD is 4:2:2", but DVCPRO HD is a container - and a container may not be completely filled, and in this case it isn't.

I'm impressed overall by the engineering principles behind the HVX200, and find the Panasonic article makes a good job of explaining why the company made the compromises it did in adopting the approach it did. I think the approach is fundamentally sound. But as the article makes very clear, compromises did have to be made - same as every other company bringing out a 1/3" HD camera - and one result here is that chroma resolution is compromised relative to luminance.

I don't think that is necessary too bad a thing, just a necessary compromise, exactly like 4:2:0 in HDV. The eye perceives less chrominance resolution than luminance anyway, it's only significant in matters such as chromakeying. But what is not good is hyping a product unfairly, or using technical terminology in a misleading way. That just leads to mistrust.
 
harddrive said:
Yes, indeed "it is longstanding that DVCPRO HD is 4:2:2", but DVCPRO HD is a container - and a container may not be completely filled, and in this case it isn't.

.
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so what about in the standard definition format the hvx has, the dvcpro50? is that also a a faux 4:2:2?
 
Please elaborate Simon (I'm asking to better understand!)
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As harddrive pointed out, for one thing the camera has had a lot of 'spin' put on it by Panasonic. Not just harmless marketing spin, but misinformation has gone out there about the camera and its capabilities. I am no engineer, however from the analysis made by others more qualified than I the fact that pixel shift doesn't increase chroma resolution seems pretty much a hard fact. The camera can only be 4:2:2 in certain modes, and in certain cirumstances. If this is in dispute though, don't question me. I'm just going on information given by others. And if that information is correct then Panny are not being entirely honest.

But with regards to the workflow the ads make out things are perfect (although I found the shot of the reporter in one of them going off with the camera guys P2 Store quite amusing. What's he supposed to use for his next assignment?!) There are issues with P2 now. Even Panny's white paper on the subject is not convincing for the present. P2 is something that is before its time. It is all very well having the finger on the pulse and releasing something way ahead of time. But for my purposes I haven't yet seen a convincing case for P2 as a whole. Just IMHO. :)

At the moment the difference between Sony and Panasonic seems to be the same idealogy differences between Airbus and Boeing.
 
brianluce said:
so what about in the standard definition format the hvx has, the dvcpro50? is that also a a faux 4:2:2?
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My belief would be that in dvcpro50 SD vertical chroma resolution would indeed equal luminance resolution - the 540 vertical pixels of each colour on the chip should be more than adequate for the 480 res of NTSC. But pictures from the HVX will be far superior in HD than dvcpro50 SD, and I believe Barry has posted equivalent images which show this only too well.

SD is interlaced, and it may be argued that 4:2:2 (v4:2:0) is much more important in the interlace world than in progressive.

It's important to note that the recording format for DVCPRO HD IS 4:2:2 - nothing 'faux' about that - just that here it's not being taken advantage of to it's full extent. It may have some advantages in 1080i mode also, but here things start getting highly complex.

For anyone with an HVX it should be extremely easy to check all this out. Shoot a resolution chart, and then do the same with intense green and red filters in front of the lens. Then look at the red and green channels (as recorded, not live from the camera). If the whole system did indeed have equal vertical luminance/chrominance, you shouldn't see a (vertical) difference. Since the recording is 4:2:2, any difference must be due to what the front end of the camera is producing.
 
Not long after NAB 2005, I read somewhere (on Panasonic's international web site, I recall) the HVX design concept was intended as "a DVX in HD". It would seem Panasonic's design engineers kept true to the concept: Clever use of inexpensive components to yield specs and operation somewhere in or near the HD realm, in a DVX form factor. But around the time of IBC (September) the marketing spin seemed to take on a life of its own, quickly expanding in unbounded ways. Panasonic's industry "cheerleaders" (one in particular) further pumped up market expectations, exacerbating the problem. Though Panasonic could have reigned in the exuberance, they simply didn't, for reasons that are unclear. Now that the camera is in the market, Panasonic has the unenviable task of rationalizing the camera's reality with overblown, out-of-control market expectations.

No product could meet the frothy expectations whipped up in some industry forums. Though the HVX is actually a decent camera, it will take a long time for Panasonic to recover from market perceptions of "misinformation" and "not being entirely honest", as Simon mentions above.

At one time, this situation was avoidable - but that time was months ago.

As a post script, I expect my HVX delivery next week.
 
Simon Wyndham said:
But with regards to the workflow the ads make out things are perfect (although I found the shot of the reporter in one of them going off with the camera guys P2 Store quite amusing. What's he supposed to use for his next assignment?!) There are issues with P2 now.
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In principle I agree with your last statement Simon, but it does deserve a few qualifications - most notably that the issues apply to some users far more than others. The problems may be far more easily overcome in such as drama situations than in hard news, though as time goes on and cards get cheaper the problems will diminish. In principle the future is solid state acquisition, and the question is how far away the future is for the majority? And will P2 face future competition from rival solid state solutions?

If a large organisation was to commit to such as a P2 solution, then it is conceivable that the ownership of the P2 stores would go with producers, or at least productions, rather than with cameramen. That would solve the problem you raise above. Ideally the producer would arrive at the start of a shoot with their own supply of cards, and save the hassle of downloading in the field. That scenario becomes more feasible the more time goes on, and the cheaper cards become.
 
Bob Diesso said:
Not long after NAB 2005, I read somewhere (on Panasonic's international web site, I recall) the HVX design concept was intended as "a DVX in HD". It would seem Panasonic's design engineers kept true to the concept: Clever use of inexpensive components to yield specs and operation somewhere in or near the HD realm, in a DVX form factor. But around the time of IBC (September) the marketing spin seemed to take on a life of its own, quickly expanding in unbounded ways. Panasonic's industry "cheerleaders" (one in particular) further pumped up market expectations, exacerbating the problem. Though Panasonic could have reigned in the exuberance, they simply didn't, for reasons that are unclear. Now that the camera is in the market, Panasonic has the unenviable task of rationalizing the camera's reality with overblown, out-of-control market expectations.

No product could meet the frothy expectations whipped up in some industry forums. Though the HVX is actually a decent camera, it will take a long time for Panasonic to recover from market perceptions of "misinformation" and "not being entirely honest", as Simon mentions above.

At one time, this situation was avoidable - but that time was months ago.

As a post script, I expect my HVX delivery next week.
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I like this post. especially the line about "frothy expectations".

I'll make my own little adendum to this sleek little piece of wordsmithery. and that's that the JVChd100 or whatever it's called seems to have experienced the reverse, terrible early reports have faded into frothy oblivion and the camera is now experiencing a renaissance of sorts. I fiddled around with one yesterday, no noise or split screen problems that I could detect. the sucker kicks some frothy arse from what i could tell.
 
harddrive said:
My belief would be that in dvcpro50 SD vertical chroma resolution would indeed equal luminance resolution - the 540 vertical pixels of each colour on the chip should be more than adequate for the 480 res of NTSC. But pictures from the HVX will be far superior in HD than dvcpro50 SD, and I believe Barry has posted equivalent images which show this only too well.
producing.
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okay so that means "no".

dunno 'bout you guys, but a small portable camera for 5 or 6 grand that can do dvcpro50 seems like a pretty good deal assuming you do stuff for broadcast and/or greenscreening.

I think HD is for dreamers, SD is where the money is. I just don't get this whole HD craze.
 
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