Cheaper alternative to kino flo?

[nejuicer]

hehe it is the new marketing.
Saturate internet with your stuff until there is only one truth left...yours.

Fortunately, not everyone shares your opinion. Of my message regarding the adverse effects of Harmonics in motion picture lighting, Harry Box, Author of "Set Lighting Technician's Handbook" had this to say:

"Great work!... this is the kind of thing I think very few technician's ever get to see, and as a result many people have absolutely no idea why things stop working." - Harry Box, Author of "Set Lighting Technician's Handbook"

I was also invited by the steering committee of the Electrical Department of IATSE Local 481 to present on Harmonics as part of the “Advanced Power and Generation for Set Lighting Technicians Seminar” offered by Russ Saunders of Saunders Electric (the provider of power generation services for the Academy Awards since 1952 and a recipient of a technical Emmy). Of my presentation, Russ Saunders had this to say to the electricians of IATSE Local 481:

Guy Holt is "among the 1% of film technicians world wide that truly understand the dynamics of power generation and Harmonics." - Russ Saunders of Saunders Electric

I have not been “saturat(ing) the internet with (my) stuff until there is only one truth left...(mine).” My message is not ‘my truth’ as nosys70 suggests, it is the truth.

As much as Chris would like you to believe, I’m not posting the same post over and over as a way of marketing equipment I sell. If it seems like I am posting the same thing over and over it is because harmonic noise is generated by all kinds of production equipment. I post these oscilloscope shots where ever I can because the harmonic noise is a growing problem in production and should be eliminated whenever possible.

But, don't take just my word that harmonic currents can cause problems for electronic production equipment: according to the Caterpillar Application and Installation Guide for "Electric Power Applications, Engine and Generator Sizing" *: "Most loads will continue to operate with THD at 15 to 20%. However, loads with sensitive electronic equipment can develop problems with THD greater than 5%." The THD value of the severe voltage waveform distortion, generated by two 1200 Pars (with non-PFC ballasts) operating on a conventional AVR gas generator, that can been seen in the oscilloscope shots in my posts is well over 100%. There is no question that THD values of this magnitude in a power waveform will cause erratic behavior in electronic production equipment running on the same distribution system.

Me presenting to the electrical department of IATSE Local 481​

But don't just take my word for it. Here is a bit of anecdotal evidence relayed to me by Dave Talamas, the owner and chief engineer, of Talamas Broadcast Systems, in Newton Ma.: they sent several non-linear editing systems to the Iron Man Triathlon for field editing. The laptops kept inexplicably locking up. They put a scope meter on the power supply which was coming from a generator that was also supplying a large number of HMIs and found the voltage waveform was severely distorted. They moved the lap tops to the onboard generator of a satellite truck. Once they were moved from the highly distorted power supply of the lighting generator to the highly refined power supply of the satellite truck the laptops operated flawlessly.

And, I'm not scare-mongering when I warn that harmonic currents can cause problems for electronic production equipment. But again, don't just take my word for it: apparently, harmonics when using a generator for lighting is enough of a problem to warrant several sections in the third edition of the "Set Lighting Technicianís Handbook." ** To quote Harry Box (Page 337 under "Power Problems from Electronic Loads"):

"Much of today's lighting technology relies on electronics such as DC rectifiers (electronic HMI ballasts), silicone-controlled rectifiers (SCRs), capacitors (magnetic & electronic HMI ballasts), and high-frequency switching power supplies (the IGBTs of electronic ballasts). These kinds of load can have undesirable effects on the current waveform, revealing themselves in the form of overheating or failing equipment , efficiency losses, circuit breaker trips, excessive current on the neutral wire, interference and instability with generators, noisy or overheating transformers and service equipment, and even loosened electrical connections. In the following sections, we discuss the power factor and current harmonics and look at their effects. Your awareness of these effects will help you to build systems that avoid or mitigate problems and show how to test for problems.(the parenthesis are mine)"

Now does this sound like harmonics is not a problem when using a generator for lighting and I am just "scaremongering"? The problem exists. Now you can either deny it and be worse off for it; or as Harry Box suggests, you can accept it and "your awareness of these effects will help you to build systems that avoid or mitigate problems (on set.)" Which, incidentally, is all that I have tried to do in my posts.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston

* Caterpillar. "Application and Installation Guide for Electric Power Applications, Engine and Generator Sizing (CAT publication LEBE5294." (Online) Available at the Caterpillar Electronic Media Center.

** Box, Harry. Set Lighting Technician's Handbook, Third Edition. London: Elsevier Press.

 

[TiE_Shepherd]

Now does this sound like harmonics is not a problem when using a generator for lighting and I am just "scaremongering"? The problem exists. Now you can either deny it and be worse off for it; or as Harry Box suggests, you can accept it and "your awareness of these effects will help you to build systems that avoid or mitigate problems (on set.)" Which, incidentally, is all that I have tried to do in my posts.

Then what is the point of this thread? No one is denying that you know what you're talking about or suggesting that you are making things up. The point is it seems like every time you join a thread it starts to turn into another discussion about generators which really has nothing at all to do with this thread. No where in the OP opening post does he mention anything about running a generator

I'm looking at expanding lighting for our film, I want something that will give off a large amount of light, for a large area (need lots of light for some night shots). We have a ton of CFL's... several 350s and 400s. We also have a few 500w tungstens. And 2 cheap 800w redheads that almost never work more than an hr or two before something goes haywire in them.

And as a matter of fact later confirms this...

We have not used, nor plan to use a generator of any kind on this production. We have power available at all locations.

So why are we now, once again talking about generators?

 

[nosys70]

quote "I have not been “saturat(ing) the internet with (my) stuff until there is only one truth left...(mine).” My message is not ‘my truth’ as nosys70 suggests, it is the truth."

Hehe, nobody contest you are right, but you can't even answer to this without writing an answer starting by throwing flowers to you and adding some picture (precisely one of the few you already posted so many time).

Your are stuck in a loop or you made an addiction to the cut & paste key.

But you are not done yet , your name is not popping up when typing "generator" in google.....

 

[David G. Smith]

I currently just went in to pre-pro on a low budget feature were I will have tens of thousands of dollars of my and investor's money at risk, and am budgeting lighting solutions. I find Guy's posts to be a god send and thank him for it. I was considering extensive use of CFL lighting, with generator power for some night exteriors we are planing, but thanks to Guy's posts will reconsider our options.

 

[ian dart]

hi nosys70,

you are amazing. here we have a couple of seasoned professionals willing to take the effort to willingly impart some
of their years of knowledge for the benefit of us all.

and all you can find in your heart is to insult them.

very professional........

i said it before and i will say it again...... amateurs.

cheers
ian

 

[JayGannon]

I think a lot of the animosity to professionals sharing their ideas comes downto the fact that it shatters the illusion that you can light a big scene for 100 bucks. They reccomend professional solutions to professional problems and that costs cash. People don't seem to like that round here.

 

[ian dart]

hi jay.

you are probably right.

most of them couldnt find there own arse without a gps
let alone the switch on a redhead

cheers
ian

 

[Chris Santucci]

hi jay.

you are probably right.

most of them couldnt find there own arse without a gps
let alone the switch on a redhead

cheers
ian

"Them?"

What's that supposed to mean? The last time I checked this was a *DVX user* forum, not a *Panavision user* forum. Posting the same highly technical self-aggrandizing thousand word posts over and over again when those posts barely relate to the topic at hand and very much talk over the heads of probably 90% of folks who frequent this forum while obviously serving primarily to convert people to believe in Guy Holt's Amazing Transformer Machine is a bit underhanded.

And it's just annoying.

You can boil down the essence of what he's saying (over and over and over again) into maybe one paragraph - easily, and move on. But no, Guy Holt et al have to cram it ALL down our throats (over and over and over again). And Guy Holt et al post the same posts in every forum they can find (in multiple threads) and THAT constitutes a *campaign*.

Guy Holt et al are clearly attempting to convert people to believe in his techniques and Guy Holt's Amazing Transformer Machine under the guise of education and they take pains to point out that their stuff is the absolute best option every chance they get while attacking the CFL use embraced by low budget shooters that frequent this forum who just want low budget options for lighting - not scientific explanations of how the stuff works - when it does just that when you plug it in - *it works*.

.

 

[markblasco]

I think all of this information on generators is great. It really is. It needs to get out there. I think the problem is, the same information has been posted many times. It seems to me the best course of action would be to just link to those posts, where the same information has already been covered, rather than filling up posts like these, where the original poster isn't going to be using a generator.

Please don't stop spreading information, but please keep it in posts where it is appropriate, and if that information has been told before, please just link to previous posts.

 

[nejuicer]

All information is appreciated but please do not hijack every thread.

I don’t see why my posts regarding generators were off topic. If there are two things that I have learned from my 20+ years as a gaffer is that 1) lights need power 2) whether you are shooting indoors or out, there is never enough power. So when someone posts:

I'm looking at expanding lighting for our film, I want something that will give off a large amount of light, for a large area (need lots of light for some night shots).

And the second response is:

For soft light over a large area you may want to go with large tungsten or HMI ….

I naturally assume (as I would bet most readers did) that power was coming from a generator. And when the OP had stated:

We have a ton of CFL's....

and someone else suggests:

a nice solution is to use umbrella reflectors (the silver ones) and fluo lamps. you can find cheap ones from KONOVA
http://konovaphoto.com/continuous-lighting/fluorescent/et550.html
it is very light on Amps …..

And someone else posts:

…. octagon boxes are great versus flo tubes in kino fixtures.

I would think information regarding the use of CFLs on generators was pertinent. And if you look back, my first post comes before Asmyth clarifies that he is not going to be using a generator.

In my posts, I make no mention of the fact that we sell generators, nor do I recommend our generator system, yet I am accused of hijacking the thread to market my generator system.

On top of that I am accused of shoveling BS and of saturating the:

…internet with your stuff until there is only one truth left...yours.

And when I try to establish my credentials, the same people that accused me of BS write:

Hehe, nobody contest you are right, but you can't even answer to this without writing an answer starting by throwing flowers to you and adding some picture (precisely one of the few you already posted so many time)….

Go figure?

- Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston

 

[nejuicer]

... The last time I checked this was a *DVX user* forum, not a *Panavision user* forum. Posting the same highly technical self-aggrandizing thousand word posts over and over again when those posts barely relate to the topic at hand and very much talk over the heads of probably 90% of folks who frequent this forum .... it's just annoying.

If as you seem to think my objective is to “market goods and services,” I would have to agree with your previous statement that it is a waste of time in this forum. But I continue to post. Why? Because, as I said once before (but obviously requires repeating again) amateurs and semi-pros more than anyone need to understand something about electricity to avoid hurting themselves. For example take the following post:

Now with TEN of these I should be able to cluster them together and produce the tungsten equivalent of a 6k balloon. It'll pull around 18 amps so you could still use it on a household circuit.… Does anyone see any reason this setup wouldn't work?

In the entire thread - http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=126714&highlight=balloon - no one once explained to Elrosten that his DIY Balloon Light was a recipe for disaster. That he would never be able to use it on a single household circuit, that the neutral in the light would overheat and melt-down, and that if he tried to power it on a portable gas generator he would (as Kevan Shaw clearly demonstrates in his You-Tube Video) have power problems (not flicker) because this set up will generate severe harmonic distortion in the power supplied by the generator. Why? Because ten 200watt 8u CFL bulbs will not draw 18 amps but 33.3 Amps. The same person who is this thread stated that the:

low budget shooters that frequent this forum.. just want low budget options for lighting - not scientific explanations of how the stuff works....

had this to say in response to Elrosten’s hair brained idea:

Not enough for 100 foot stretch of night street. It's the wrong kind of light for that kind of coverage, unless you had more than one "cluster." Cool idea though.

I know Chris thinks my “verbiage about sine waves” is tedious, but he might benefit by reading some of it instead of criticizing it. I find again and again that because of the brevity of the posts like his, online forums like this are filled with a lot of misinformation (case in point.) Since a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing when it comes to handling electricity (case in point), I will continue to promote the article I wrote for our company newsletter on the use of portable generators in motion picture lighting, and it is not for marketing purposes as Chris would have you think, but for your own edification.

Rather than launch into a detailed explanation again of what Chris and everyone who responded to that post was failing to take into account I will take Mark Blasco’s suggestion and refer you to the thread and my article. The article is available on our website at http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html.

What Elrosten was failing to take into account can be found at http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=203212&page=6

- Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston

 

[nejuicer]

…here we have a couple of seasoned professionals willing to take the effort to willingly impart some
of their years of knowledge for the benefit of us all.

and all you can find in your heart is to insult them.

very professional........

i said it before and i will say it again...... amateurs.

cheers
ian

If not for the many readers of this forum that disagree with Chris and have posted their appreciation and support (see posts below) I would have to agree with Ian.

Unfortunately, there are those who have appointed themselves the arbiters of truth and bully anyone who contradicts them.

... attacking the CFL ... embraced by low budget shooters that frequent this forum who just want low budget options for lighting - not scientific explanations of how the stuff works - when it does just that when you plug it in - *it works* (is underhanded).

Maybe Chris is not interested in scientific explanations of how stuff works (he obviously hasn’t watched Kevan Shaw’s You-Tube Video “The Generator verses the CFL” posted above), but there are plenty of other readers of this forum who do. Here are some other peoples’ responses to my repeated and lengthy posts that Chris finds so irritating :

To answer to nejuicer's multiple posts with his lengthy explanations, complete with photos. Let me say, BRAVO.

A number of newbies to this site never use the "SEARCH" portion of this site to ask questions. How many times have we read "Which light kit should I get?"

Guy's explanations of power distribution, safety, Power factor, sine wave, HMI's and ballasts are all very welcome, and frankly I learn something new from most of his posts.

Tell you what, folks with info like Nejuicer add so much more to this board than "the rest of us" that they are in a whole different category. We need more posters like him!

i have been a gaffer for 20 years and i apreciate the info guy and eileen are putting up, it adds to my growing need to learn.

You rock Guy.

Indeed, you do rock -- and I, for one, salute your attention to detail and lucidity -- in which some may find a certain elegant verbosity. Long live yours! And thanks for your generosity!

- Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston

 

[Chris Santucci]

Can the system administrator please open a *The Great Guy Holt* forum on DVXuser?

I think he'd really appreciate it.

.

 

[BVX]

As a casual bystander here, I have a few thoughts.

- Three pages of comments have barely tried to answer the o.p.'s question or kept in mind his/her lower cost needs.

- Right or wrong, someone made a leap to assume that generator power would be necessary. I might have too. Apparently that is not in the plan.

- There is some deep-seated hostility here for no compelling, understandable reason.

- Some people haven't yet mastered the "page down" or scrolling feature to bypass individual posts that they might not want to read.

- Some people like me would rather not go off in ten directions to read other related threads. If the same material can be clearly and succinctly restated, so be it. In two short months I've already spent an enormous amount of time learning much on this great site, but wish I could be more efficient with it.

- Some people try to be helpful to a fault and write way more than what might be needed for the situation. But I appreciate the time and effort spent, and have learned quite a bit from contributors like nejuicer.

- If people mention the legitimate benefits of a product that they deal in, I have no problem with that, as I don't with those who show their books and DVDs for sale in each and every one of their posts. I think most of us can understand and accept some degree of self-promotion. But nejuicer's last post is so over the top it's making me reconsider.

 

[JayGannon]

Chris just saw that you spent 17 years as a producer, all makes sense now.

 

[Chris Santucci]

I'm looking at expanding lighting for our film, I want something that will give off a large amount of light, for a large area (need lots of light for some night shots). We have a ton of CFL's... several 350s and 400s. We also have a few 500w tungstens. And 2 cheap 800w redheads that almost never work more than an hr or two before something goes haywire in them.

The problem with lighting large areas at night with such small fixtures is, the quality of that light draws attention to itself. Usually the goal with night lighting is to either mimic moonlight or use motivation from some artificial source like streetlights.

All the lighting you mention above, I'd say, are not suitable in any case more than likely. A better option on a budget would be to get some 500 watt floods from The Home Depot or Lowe's. Those same stores should carry 1500 watt floods also, so for a few hundred bucks you could have some ample light for large night exteriors, but then the issue becomes what these fixtures will go on since it's not advisable to have them too close to the ground.

Inexpensive options for aerial mounting of lighting could be - on the tops of houses, buildings, trees, or a man-lift if you had the budget for it.

On a budget, consider shooting day-for-night or consider some creative light placement in order to at least suggest moonlight. Watch "The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford" for some ideas about lighting large areas at night naturally.

A little light here and there on the background, even if not coming from the sky, can be enough to suggest natural moon light.

.