Canon Unveils New Prosumer HDV Line: XH G1 and XH A1

Robert Sanders said:
I don't understand how Canon's HD integrated lens camera isn't a direct competitor to Panasonic's HD integrated lens camera?

How is it exactly that Canon's HD camera is targeting a 3-year old SD non-widescreen camera?
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BEcause the DVX is in the price class of the new canon. This new camera coming out isnt going to deter people who want the benefits of the P2 based HVX. Its going to dete people who were thnking of buying a DVX(Real 24p)/ FX1/ Z1/HD100 ( Real 24p aswell, but with a "hobled" lens).

I am still going HVX, because i am more interested in its particualr benefits it offers, overcrankind, 4:2:2 color, dynamic range, 4:2:2 SD, uncompressed sound (vs HDV Mpeg2 layer 2), and tapeless work flow.

IF the canon did all that, i would say, sayonara PAnasonic. HEllo CAnon.

Its not the resolution, or removable lens that makes a good camera, the camera is more than the sum of its parts.
 
Robert Sanders said:
I don't understand how Canon's HD integrated lens camera isn't a direct competitor to Panasonic's HD integrated lens camera?

How is it exactly that Canon's HD camera is targeting a 3-year old SD non-widescreen camera?
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As far as I'm concerned, the G1 with SDI is a direct competitor to the HVX. Whatever advantages that P2 and DVCPRO-HD has can easily be offset SDI out to a suitable off-board recorder. For example, if RED comes through with an inexpensive and small RED Drive that operates off of SDI and compress to a potentially even better codec such as their RED CODE then the HVX becomes even more irrelevent IMO.

The only reason the A1/G1 is being compared to the DVX is because of the price. Even though anyone in their right mind knows the DVX is an inferior product. Yes, it was a good product in it's day but it's 2006 now and it's time to move on. Yet Panasonic still maintains the list price on this camera at $4k and people still defend it!
 
spencer said:
I'm just saying, wouldn't all of the aforementioned facts look a helluva lot nicer in 1080i?
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You actually get a nice 1080 24p image if shot well. It'll be interesting to see how much used DVX's will go for in the coming months.

btw, yes, Vegas fully supports HDV, as does Premiere Pro, Edius, and soon with native 24F support, FCP too. (likely FCP 6)

Here are some frame grabs of 24F I shot at Bryce Canyon a few weeks ago:

BrycePic4.jpg

BrycePic1.jpg

BrycePic7.jpg

BrycePic13.jpg


I think it's likely that the A1 will at least be this sharp. :)
 
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If I do end up investing entirelly in this camera... I might be just a tad angry if the 24f Support isn't a free upgrade for Final Cut. Just a tad. Like, the kinda angry where you write a nasty letter.
 
All 24F support is really going to bring to the table is the simplicity of capturing in the usual FCP mode. Most will find the desire to transcode to a good intermediate like PhotoJPEG or even Sheer. (lossless HD)

I've found FCP5 works fine as long as you know a few of the workarounds.

Here's a downconvert of 24F to 720p:
rafters.jpg
 
Barry_Green said:
the HVX is a word processor among a sea of typewriters. The XH A1 may be the new king of the typewriters, but it's still a tape-based long-GOP compressed-audio "typewriter."
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Barry, the Canon's have a word processor option in the form of the Firestore. I'd love to work with P2 - but give me affordable 64gig cards.

This will hurt Panasonic. Sure there a lot of people on this board who would never touch the Canons, simply because of HDV. But there are a lot of people who do not see the codec as the principal issue. A lot of people make their purchase decisions based on other factors. Almost any pro is going to take an F350 XDCAM HD over an HVX, and XDcam HD is basically HDV (albeit in a non-linear tape free form).

For myself image quality is the key factor. I don't regard myself as a complete amateur. I am in the video business, it's my full time job. Tape/P2, DVCpro HD/HDV - I'll deal with it (personally I'd love HDCAM). Every acquisition format has issues. In any case I want a Firestore.

I was planning to order two HVX cameras on Friday, but I went into my local pro dealer and found everyone discussing the Canons, and they weren't just comparing it to the Z1. The HVX is going to get a run for it's money.

Some were put off the H1 because of form factor, iris control, lack of LCD, lack of wide angle on the standard lens, and price. These issues have been addressed comprehensively. Canon has listened, and they didn't skimp on CCDs as they did with the GL series.

As I'm in no rush, I'm going to hold off a bit now and shoot SD, but the Canons have gone to the top of my shopping list.

[Perhaps I should also point out that the HVX is not so attractive if you're in Pal land like me, and running FCP - still no 720p support, so no variable frame rates! Severely lessens the appeal of the HVX. In contrast, I've heard 25F on the Canon works fine with FCP]
 
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TimurCivan said:
I am still going HVX, because i am more interested in its particualr benefits it offers, overcrankind, 4:2:2 color, dynamic range, 4:2:2 SD, uncompressed sound (vs HDV Mpeg2 layer 2), and tapeless work flow.
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Right, for some people these will remain the key issues. But I have to take you up on dynamic range - I've read every test and comparison of these cams and nowhere have I seen any evidence that the Panny has grater dynamic range - if it did that would seal the deal for me. In fact, Adam's tests showed that while latitude is basically even among the 1/3" chippers, the Canon handles highlights more gracefully than the HVX.
 
"True 24p". That's funny. It looks the same. It acts the same. But it aint "true".

You guys crack me up.

The other night I showed the latest rough cut of my project to an audience. Not one person in the audience responded, "I would've like it more if you'd shot it with a real 24p camera."
 
Robert Sanders said:
"True 24p". That's funny. It looks the same. It acts the same. But it aint "true".

You guys crack me up.

The other night I showed the latest rough cut of my project to an audience. Not one person in the audience responded, "I would've like it more if you'd shot it with a real 24p camera."
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Well said... and for anyone dismissing 24f. Take a gander here: http://www.starwaypictures.com/twenty-third/index.html shot on an XL-H1
 
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This is the first camera that's made me seriously consider selling my dvx. Look at the specs. Look at the price. Wow.
 
Barry_Green said:
So -- would an A1 cause a price drop in the HVX? Only if people quit buying HVXs, I'd wager. Right now the factory still can't keep up with the orders and they're selling two and a half times more HVXs than they predicted. As long as that stays current (regardless of whatever other product comes out) then no price reduction would happen. But if sales dried up, then sure they'd respond, one would assume...
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hmm i personaly think that all panasonic needs to do with HVX is drop the price of the media i.e P2 to a point where its affoardable to the inde market & they can keep the price of the camera where it is at & they will sell more cameras than they are selling now... the only complains/issues people go on & on & on about HVX is the price for the media so once thats out of the door... its all a dream workflow!
 
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when is Sony and Panasonic going to come out with this new format that will kill off HDV? It looks like Canon might get them moving just alittle faster.



My $4,000 or hopefully less will go to a A1. It looks closest to what I need. But I'm going to wait and get more info. Sony or Panny might have a surprise too.
 
Elton said:
That's all HDV to tape and edited in DVCProHD 1080 24p. :)
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It looks really good. Only wish I was at home so that I could view it on my television via DVI out.

Have you had a chance to view much H1 footage on television sets? Hi-Def and Standard Def?
 
lacuna said:
Right, for some people these will remain the key issues. But I have to take you up on dynamic range - I've read every test and comparison of these cams and nowhere have I seen any evidence that the Panny has grater dynamic range - if it did that would seal the deal for me. In fact, Adam's tests showed that while latitude is basically even among the 1/3" chippers, the Canon handles highlights more gracefully than the HVX.
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actually the JVC is one of the best. its roll off to white is very natural.

I shall have to do more reasearch on this. i thought HVX was pushing a half stop on the rest. :)
 
Elton said:
That's all HDV to tape and edited in DVCProHD 1080 24p. :)
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Why didint they just shoot it in DVCproHD to begin with... HVX cough cough.... ( i'm sorry i couldnt help it......)
 
lacuna said:
Barry, the Canon's have a word processor option in the form of the Firestore.
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I wouldn't agree, not by a long shot. I see the firestore as a temporary stopgap measure. Work with one, then work with the cards. The cards are far superior to work with (barring only the shorter record times.)


Almost any pro is going to take an F350 XDCAM HD over an HVX
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Well, almost any pro would choose 1/2" over 1/3", and $20,000 instead of $5995, sure. But XDCAM over P2? I don't think so. Not once they actually look at what the system means. For example, look at the BBC -- perhaps the largest content producer in the world, perhaps the most stringent quality standards in the world, perhaps the most pro of the pros, and they're committed to going tapeless. They've been reviewing XDCAM-HD, Panasonic P2, and Thomson Infinity Rev Pro. Anyone want to take any bets on which system they will *not* choose?

In any case I want a Firestore.
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Which means, by the way you say it, that you don't have one yet? Then do yourself a favor and work with one for a while. You may find it adequate, or you may find it lacking.

The HVX is going to get a run for it's money.
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It should -- that's what competition is all about. And I don't doubt that some people who were stretching well beyond their means to try to afford an HVX will now think it a more prudent move to go with the less-expensive Canon. As long as people are aware of the differences, then they can make an informed decision. But if someone's going to try to say that an HDV camera with a FireStore is the equivalent of an HVX/P2 system, you'll have to forgive me if I disagree in the strongest possible terms.

Some were put off the H1 because of form factor, iris control, lack of LCD, lack of wide angle on the standard lens, and price.
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Price mostly. Lens controls secondly.

These issues have been addressed comprehensively. Canon has listened, and they didn't skimp on CCDs as they did with the GL series.
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Agreed. I think the A1 is far and away the most promising HDV camcorder on the market. But there are reasons that a lot of people are dissatisfied with HDV, and HDV itself is the core differentiating factor. For some people that won't matter. For others, like the D.P. of Monster Garage who ditched the Z1 specifically because of HDV, it matters a lot.
 
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