C500: -----Canon C500 and Shogun Inferno-----

NorBro

NorBro

Major Contributor
So I just received the rental and here are some brief notes:

Camera Firmware - 1.0.7.1.00 (This appears to be the latest firmware according to Canon's website.)

1 SDI cable via the 6G/12G input on the Inferno.

All of the following pertains to ProRes recording (not Canon RAW or Cinema DNG).

The Inferno does not recognize Half-RAW (as expected).

4096x2160 - 24p and 30p work.

3840x2160 - 24p and 30p work.

60p does not work in either (as expected).

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2K RGB 4:4:4 12-bit - 2048x1080 - Does not work; a green cast appears over the screen in 60p and 30p...no signal in 24p.

2K RGB 4:4:4 12-bit - 1920x1080 - Does not work; a green cast appears over the screen in 60p and 30p...no signal in 24p.

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2K RGB 4:4:4 10-bit - 2048x1080 - Does not work; a green cast appears over the screen in 60p and 30p...no signal in 24p.

2K RGB 4:4:4 10-bit - 1920x1080 - Does not work; a green cast appears over the screen in 60p and 30p...no signal in 24p.

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2K YCC 4:2:2 10-bit - 2048x1080 - Works, but the framerate is locked to 60p...you cannot change it.

2K YCC 4:2:2 10-bit - 1920x1080 - Works, but the framerate is locked to 60p...you cannot change it.

UPDATE: Although a signal appears, the recording did not work and messed up my SSD. (See post #6 for more info.)

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If you switch the camera to the MXF system priority, you can monitor out via HD/SDI and record all framerates in 1080 and 720. I don't know what it is spitting out, but just FYI.

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4K/24p recording times with a clean 480GB SSD:

ProRes 422 HQ - 1 hour and 19 minutes in 4096x2160, and 1 hour and 24 minutes in 3840x2160.

ProRes 422 - 1 hour and 59 minutes...2 hours and 8 minutes.

ProRes 422 LT - 2 hours and 52 minutes…3 hours and 5 minutes.

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Initial thoughts on fan: I had the camera and the Inferno both powered via AC. 4K/24p recording. For 10 minutes it was completely silent. At almost 11 minutes, the fan turned on and sounded how it sounds in standby mode. Several minutes later it turned off...and then on again. I recorded a total of 20 minutes. I am not sure if the fan noise increases with recording time, but if it doesn't get any louder and only sounds how it sounds in standby mode (as mentioned), I think there is absolutely no way this would be a problem when recording interviews 5+ feet away.

Side note: I have not done any troubleshooting for the 2K. My findings could be incorrect, but it all seems very straightforward. If this is all correct and this is how the Inferno works with the C500 then the 7Q+ is a no brainer (with the C500).
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That's all I have for now and will keep this post updated with any other thoughts. I hope to shoot some footage later (update: see below).

I hope this helps anyone who is interested in learning more about this particular setup.
 
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Nice test Norbro! I knew there was a reason AbleCine was selling the C500 new with a Shogun for $5,500 They sold out pretty fast, but the Shogun was more or less free. Good news on the sound front!
 
Thank you for your feedback. Good news about the fan.The first gen Atomos Shogun works fine doesn't it? Why do you need the inerno?
 
You don't need it...I just wanted to test it.

But if one were to buy an Atomos recorder this would be the one to buy because of the 4K/60p (for other cameras) and brightness (same as Flames). It's not really that much more expensive than the Flames and original Shogun unless you get one of them used for $1K or less. I think the Inferno is also supposed to get a CinemaDNG update, but not sure if that will apply to the C500.
 
I have a Shogun Flame and if additional functionality is necessary, the 7Q+ is a no-brainer provided the cost is worth it. If 4:2:2 10 bit 4k and time-lapse is all that is necessary (essentially what I need), I'm comfortable with the lower cost Flame rather than a 7Q+.

Atomos stated the first RAW upgrade will be for the FS7 and 700 so will see what they do with Canons.
 
I updated my post above...2K/1080p in the 2K system priority mode is no good (at least in my experience).

I went out to shoot some footage at the park where I usually test cameras (or at the beach). After a few minutes of shooting 4K, I switched to 2K/60p to grab a few shots. I noticed the Inferno wasn't blinking red like it usually does when recording, but just had a steady red light with some subtle flickering that looked like static/interference. I ignored it and kept recording clips (I thought I was) until the Inferno wouldn't record anymore. The symbol for dropped frames appeared and I could not get the thing to roll at all in any mode even by restarting it, taking out the batteries and SSD, and/or letting it cool down. I also let the camera cool down as I initially thought it was overheating.

So my testing was cut short. When I came home, I discovered that none of the 2K shots were recorded. I'm guessing the 2K messed up the drive (although the 4K footage was fine). The MXF system priority seems to work okay (tested that earlier).

After I edited the clips below, I tried to record on the same SSD again and it still didn't work. Reformatted the drive...works again.

4096x2160/24p (23.98p), 70-200mm f/4L IS

https://vimeo.com/188367694 (watch in 4K or 2K if you would like)

P.S. This was a fresh reminder of how amazing internal ND filters are, haha. Every camera in the world should be built with internal NDs.
 
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You are the man! Thanks for reconfirming what I have concluded. The 7Q+ is the best option to open the most doors!

Thank you.

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness
www.pulsecinema.com
 
Nice 4K footage NorBro! I love the opening shot. The camera resolves a lot of detail as you can see, but retains a filmic texture/grain and is not overly sharp in a video sense.

Atomos lists no support for 2K RGB from the C500, so I'm not surprised if you had problems with the 2K in general.

I think if you just need ProRes 4K 24/30P from the camera, or you already own the Shogun, then Atomos is perfectly fine.
 
Thank you! I think I saw you post about that grain texture before and you're definitely right...I totally feel it in the footage.
 
I shot some more footage this morning. The C500's dynamic range reminds me very much of the URSA 4K. Both are rated at 12, but a few people claim the URSA has around 10-11. I googled some thoughts about it and found one test rating the C500 at 12 stops, but really an effective 10.5.

I would agree it's lower than the marketed # (as many times the case), but the camera will of course still produce beautiful images.

These are just some of my thoughts, but I think it would be an easy observation to conclude by anyone around here who's worked with lots of different cameras and LOGs, and has shot the same test scenes over and over again.

The DR is definitely lacking and whites clips harshly (I think someone else mentioned this here too).
 
Thanks for your report NorBro, but keep in mind you are shooting 4K ProRes 4:2:2 on the Atomos, which may not be the best for a DR or clipping test.

The 4K RAW will give you slightly better DR as will the 2K RGB mode, which has the best DR of the bunch (especially in terms of the highlight roll-off).

As Hurlbut and many others have mentioned, you absolutely must protect your highlights so that you can take advantage of the C500's enhanced DR in the underexposure (which is an amazing 7 stops!). If you do that, you will get outstanding footage that no one would ever consider as lacking in DR or a smooth and creamy roll-off:


[Note: the above is another Musicbed C500 video shot in 4K with added "film" grain in post, which I find a little excessive.]

As I've owned the BMPC-4K for two years and have recently added the C500/Odyssey, there is no question for me which is going to be my main camera. But aside from that, I also hope that they will cut together nicely in a two-camera interview setup when needed or when piecing together footage from different locations.

My BMPC-4K rig is much smaller and more mobile than the one I have built for the C500, so that will also determine which camera goes to the more remote locations or gets placed on a slider.

Personally, as someone who was used to 7-8 stops of latitude on 16mm Kodak negative back in the 1990s, I'm very satisfied with 10-12 stops, which is what the BMPC-4K provides.

The BMPC-4K can produce beautiful images but the exposure range in which it records such images is somewhat limited. The CDNG files also retain a decent amount of info in the shadows and highlights, but the camera has much more contrast than what I'm seeing in the flatter C500 CLOG footage in RAW 4K, where you can really see into the shadows.

I have yet to do a direct side-by-side test, but when I do it will be more about matching the footage from the two cameras as opposed to which one has more DR.

As for the smoothest highlight roll-off, the best performers are the Alexa, the C300 II, and the Dragon, probably in that order. I'm sure the Sony F5/F55 and F65 belong in that list as well.
 
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I think ProRes is an okay test though...it's more about the sensor. I can see more dynamic range with the BMPCC, for example, shooting PR internally.
 
But I do know that on the BMPC-4K, RAW will give you a slight DR boost, better colors, and more detail over the ProRes.

As for the BMCC or BMPCC, I seem to recall a test that Hurlbut did with the BMCC and the C500, where the BMCC RAW appeared to have less contrast (i.e., more DR) but also less color depth and less color info in the overexposure:

"By doing this, you really see immediately the color depth of the C500. Look at the out of focus red light. These are the same exposures and the C500 sees it beautifully as red. The BMCC cannot handle the over exposure so it sees it as a red ring with a hot over exposed center. Also, look at the BIT depth of the C500 with the color chart. The colors look nice and rich where the BMCC looks thin because of its too flat RAW file. Again, 45K price tag with the C500 vs 2K price tag with the BMCC"

http://www.thehurlblog.com/film-education-color-correction-made-easy/

BMCC vs. C500.jpg

[BMCC is on the left in this split-screen]

Despite this limitation, Hurlbut thought that the BMCC put in a very good performance on skin tones.

I think this is an important reminder that color depth contributes to the overall "DR" performance, which is a factor that most DR tests do not examine. Color depth is thus a really significant part of your exposure range. Expensive cinema cameras are expected to retain color info at both ends (overexposure and underexposure), which the C500 does very effectively.
 
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I just wanted to share that I ended up purchasing a C500...and a brand new one too, lol.

This pretty much goes against all of my personal camera principles and it's certainly a questionable decision in 2016 (at least buying a new one), but after spending more time with it, I fell in love. I am a neurotic and compulsive technical organism, and I have used almost every single camera in the world besides some super expensive ones or those crazy studio cameras...and there is something about these images that this camera produces that is just amazing.

Sometimes I think they just don't make sensors like they use to, ha.

Not really a worthy post, but just wanted to share. :bath:
 
I understand and I feel your madness. There is something in that good old technology that I found hard to pass up? I'm very happy with my brand new (almost two months now) C500. Know you are going to make great pictures in 1080, 2k, 4k, for years to come. I do find I have spent about another $5k on recording and support for the C500, but this also works with other cameras I already have. I'm loving my Odyssey 7Q+ with all the bells and whistles. HO! HO! HO! Merry Christmas :)
 
Out of curiosity did you end up paying $7k for the body? Wondering if any dealer has it for less.
 
I paid the $6,999 with the optional 2 year 0 % interest plan. I think for the camera you are getting this was a great deal!
 
Same here...I think Canon has a pretty strict unilateral pricing policy, but maybe the price will eventually drop again.
 
NorBro said:
Same here...I think Canon has a pretty strict unilateral pricing policy, but maybe the price will eventually drop again.
Click to expand...
It's more lkely that the remainign units will be sold at the current price and then will be gone for good (and onto eBay).

In any case, when one realizes that this was a $30,000 camera only three years ago...

PS. Going back to ~ 2014, Michael Cione made a statement that C500 with Ki Pro Quad (recording 4K ProRes) was one of the bargains of the season and that was a ~ $30,000 combo too.
 
NorBro said:
I just wanted to share that I ended up purchasing a C500...and a brand new one too, lol.

This pretty much goes against all of my personal camera principles and it's certainly a questionable decision in 2016 (at least buying a new one), but after spending more time with it, I fell in love. I am a neurotic and compulsive technical organism, and I have used almost every single camera in the world besides some super expensive ones or those crazy studio cameras...and there is something about these images that this camera produces that is just amazing.

Sometimes I think they just don't make sensors like they use to, ha.

Not really a worthy post, but just wanted to share. :bath:
Click to expand...

Actually, this is the most worthy post I have read in days. Congratulations! I'm so happy for you. I thought your C500 short was really beautiful stuff, so I'm glad we will see more of your great skills with this camera. And, indeed, the image is magical: it's a proper cinema camera. As for the tedious workflow, that is the camera gods punishing the operator for getting such lovely footage from this camera.

In my case, I finally got another Samsung SSD on Black Friday and the RAW Odyssey upgrade so I'm finally ready for that slow motion I promised you a while back! All the same, I think you will probably be shooting slowmo before I do as my workflow with this camera is in slowmo itself . . .
 
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