Canon C100 output

Jim Martin said:
I posted this on other threads and if your use the search function, you would find it......HDMI is a standard....4-2-2 color 8 bit with audio...all coming out of the C100.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
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Thank you,
But i have C100 manual in my hands and it does not say anything regarding HDMI output.
thanks again.
 
Sorry to you all.
Canon Japan just confirmed to me it is 4:2:2 out. Sony Aus got it wrong.
 
I remember when Canon Pro support told me that the C100 was only 4:2:0 out. Avro saw a manual that does not mention the color space of the external feed. perhpas at one point Canon considered among it 4:2:0 out and that is what they told their tech support, but the they came to their senses since every camera in this price range has 4:2:2 out.

but have they crippled the signal in some way, just as Sony did with the FS100 out? This is the big question that someone should ask Cann at their October 18th Hollywood presentation on the C100.
 
How was the FS100 crippled? If Canon in any way diminishes the C100 HDMI ouput to anything less than the C300, it will kill the sales of C100,, at least my sale.
Is there a way someone can confirm (prior to the Oct 18th presentation) that the C100 output is indeed equal to the C300?
 
STOP THE MADNESS!!!!! It's HDMI standard 8 bit 4-2-2 out!......from the highest level at Canon Engineering......now let's move on.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
 
Crippled or equal in all ways to C300? I will ask that at the Canon presentation. No one doubts that it is 4:2:2 that is not the question, but did they pull a Sony with the output?
 
I just dont see how there would be a difference between the HDMI out of the C100 and the HDMI out of the C300 considering its 4:2:2 8 bit on both.
 
Jim Martin said:
STOP THE MADNESS!!!!! It's HDMI standard 8 bit 4-2-2 out!......from the highest level at Canon Engineering......now let's move on.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
Click to expand...

Since You are in touch with Canon Engineering, ask them if they can give us Firmware upgrade to 50P/60P in 2012.This should not be a big task since $1,000 camera can do it last 2 years....
 
philiplipetz said:
Crippled or equal in all ways to C300? I will ask that at the Canon presentation. No one doubts that it is 4:2:2 that is not the question, but did they pull a Sony with the output?
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Just out of curiosity, Philip, because I haven't heard much about the issue - how did Sony cripple their hdmi outputs and what cameras are affected?
 
cowpunk52 said:
Just out of curiosity, Philip, because I haven't heard much about the issue - how did Sony cripple their hdmi outputs and what cameras are affected?
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FS100 is 8 bit only and F3 10 bit but both will output 4:4:4, and the FS100 runs the 4:4:4 digital signal through the analog optimzed for 8 bit conversion and then reconverts it and outputs to digital HDMI, degrading the signal compared to the F3. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/t-278176.html

http://setlafilms.com/2011/06/04/report-from-cinegear-fs100-does-444/ Report from CineGear - FS100 does 4:4:4, but is it all that?

A paragraph taken from the report.
"I just received a call back from the Sony Rep from CineGear and he confirmed that the Sony FS100 now does true 4:4:4 Color Space out of RGB output. Now why is this important? well let’s look at how the camera works. The FS1oo records the image in digital format. it then sends that signal through the an analog channel (RGB) only to be converted to digital again through HD-SDI to be recorded to Apple ProRes 4:4:4. Think that there might be some loss of quality here? I think so… so the obvious choice here is to record AppleProRes 422 from the HDMI port at HQ quality if you have the space. I think that this was an oversight on the part of Sony personally, but when I get the cameras I will do a test with them and get back to you."

Not sure about analog being in a digital chain, but the point is the same, the DSP has do some processing and that processing will be optimized for the final delivery product. That is why several people report that the FS100 HDMI signal goes though a slightly different internal processing than the F3 and this creates differences in output even when similar gammas are chosen.

Andy Shipsides at AbelCine states clearly that the FS100 uses different DSP algorithims and this lowers the quality of its signals. http://blog.abelcine.com/2011/05/27/sony-fs100-ratings-and-dynamic-range/ Remember that we are not talking about RAW, the sensor signal is processed to some degree by the DSP before it flows as the HDMI/SDI signal.

In the case of the FS100 this processing degrades the signal more than it does with the F3, resulting in things like lower DR. How many people say that a FS100 with an external recorder is the poor man's way to duplicate the F3? No one.

Yet, we feel that Canon will allow the same thing to happen with the C100/C300. There is no reason that it cannot be true. IT all depends on whether the signal passes though sections of the DSP that are different when optimized for AVCHD rather than 4:2:2.

In the case of the FS100 the 8 bit 4:2:0 AVCHD destination created a difference even in the HDMI signal. Canon uses the same DSP in both the C100 and the C300 so both cameras could very easily output identical signals, or the C100 could suffer from the same signal path as Sony used in the FS100 since the FS100 and the C100 cameras are primarily 4:2:0 AVCHD. There is no way to know, except that Canon would the be cheapening the Cinema EOS label if the signal is degraded so I feel, operative word "feel," that they did not do the same thing Sony did.

Therefore, I feel that this is a legtimate question. Think of it as due diligence similar to termite and foundation inspections before you buy a home. No one expects there to be a problem, and most of the time there is not. However, no bank will make a loan without answering these questions because rarely, but still too often, there is a problem. Our team members want me to do due dilegence before they purchase several C100s. It is their money, and they asked me to check everything possible.

I hope to be at the October 18th C100 presentation to complete due diligence. I'm the guy with gray hair and glasses with frames only at the bottom of the lenses. I look forward to many people telling me that I was wrong; but I never said there was a problem, only that based on past experience we should make sure that there is not a problem.


 
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I don't think you understood those links you put. FS100 does output only 4:2:2. It doesn't do an analogue to digital conversion anywhere. The internal processing is at 8-bits though compared to the F3 which is higher. There is no "conspiracy" here.
 
I agree with both of your statements. It does 4:2:2 output, and i doubted that there is analog in a digital stream. My point was that FS100 4:2:2 output was not as good as F3 4:2:2 for a wide variety of reasons, including 8 bit processing but also due to preliminary optimization of internal routines for the final delivery product (which the OP misinterpete the Sony rep as saying was analog). HDMI in the FS100's output is altered by otomization for delivery steps to codec encoding, even if it does not take them. The difference , in that case, starts eearly enough that it alters the output signal even if it is not encoded to the Codec. Just because the FS100 and F3 share the same sensor it does not mean that their external feed signals are the same.

There are many many more references but it was late and I have other things to do than belabor a point that should be obvious, so I agree with Jim that it is time to stop the madness.

The only point I wanted to make was that internal DSP processing is optimized for final delivery encoding and that it can, but does not have to, alter the external output signal. All I wanted to do was confirm the probability, but not the certainty, that this is not a problem in the C100 since it shares the same DSP with the C300 but has different encoding for different codecs., has the internal programming been changed in way that subtly alters the external feed. Clearly The internal DSP programming has to be different.

Not all 4:2:2 outputs are indentical.
 
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