Canon 7D killed my scarlet dreams!

[ydgmdlu]

Forgive me, but it just sounds like you're a RED hater who's lost all perspective on this matter.

I came to that conclusion a long time ago. But, to be fair, he does sound a lot more level-headed than most RED haters.

His main thing is that he likes to equate sub-$2K equipment with high-end, studio-quality equipment. The comparison isn't fair, so dismissing the high-end gear the way that he does just isn't valid. It's like saying that the Canon HV20, however good it is, makes the XH-A1 a pointless investment. It's apples and oranges.

 

[PaPa]

im confused why the two are being compared?

RED: professional cinema camera, records uncompressed, XLR audio for sync sound with the cinema form factor
Canon: Very affordable camera with manual controls and 24p.

Two completely different tools. What's the issue here?

I think if the Canon had XLR ports, with manual sound control, no recording limit and uncompressed image, then i dare say there would be room to compare.

But now for the price, I'm hella excited for the 7D. But if i had the money, the clear winner would be with red/scarlet.

 

[f64manray]

I came to that conclusion a long time ago. But, to be fair, he does sound a lot more level-headed than most RED haters.

His main thing is that he likes to equate sub-$2K equipment with high-end, studio-quality equipment. The comparison isn't fair, so dismissing the high-end gear the way that he does just isn't valid. It's like saying that the Canon HV20, however good it is, makes the XH-A1 a pointless investment. It's apples and oranges.

I believe I was responding to someone that was saying that once Scarlet is released, it will put an end to all this VDSLR stuff. I was just saying that there will not be enough of a quality difference for most of those people to want to spend thousands more on a S35 Scarlet. It will be a much different playing field than it is now when Scarlet is released.

Do I believe Scarlet will have the edge in IQ and in post work flow? Yes, but will it be worth thousands more to most people. No, I don't think it will.

Rodney Charter is using the 5DII and now apparently the 7D in a professional capacity on a network series. It seems apparent that the 5DII is at least clearing the bar IQ wise even if it doesn't have all the features that Red has.

IQ between the 5dII and Red One is being compared by many professionals everywhere. I didn't start it. Quite frankly, I was amazed when I started seeing discussions on it.

 

[Nik Manning]

The 7D is being compared to the Scarlet because it now has the largest sensor under $10k. Before Scarlet was coming to the market it was going to give us a 2/3 sensor for around $4k. That offering isn't as impressive now that we have a super 35mm sensor video camera for under $2k. I know that for the last 5 years or so we have been asking for bigger chips, better compression,more dynamic range, and better low light performance. We have just recently gave a damn about an image larger than 1080P. The fact is that most professional cameras that are used on tv and for film will shoot 1080p. So realistically we don't need anything bigger than 1080p if you are going to film,blu-ray,tv,youtube, or iphone.

Canon hit a homerun with the 7D. It is an amazing camera at an amazing price. We really can't complain about image quality, dynamic range, low light, sensor size, or price anymore.

 

[Kholi]

I believe I was responding to someone that was saying that once Scarlet is released, it will put an end to all this VDSLR stuff. I was just saying that there will not be enough of a quality difference for most of those people to want to spend thousands more on a S35 Scarlet. It will be a much different playing field than it is now when Scarlet is released.

Do I believe Scarlet will have the edge in IQ and in post work flow? Yes, but will it be worth thousands more to most people. No, I don't think it will.

Rodney Charter is using the 5DII and now apparently the 7D in a professional capacity on a network series. It seems apparent that the 5DII is at least clearing the bar IQ wise even if it doesn't have all the features that Red has.

IQ between the 5dII and Red One is being compared by many professionals everywhere. I didn't start it. Quite frankly, I was amazed when I started seeing discussions on it.

DVX's and everything after it have done the same thing. There's no real bar. You can compare dog poop to cement all day long, but that doesn't mean you should try to use dog poop to hold your home together.

 

[f64manray]

DVX's and everything after it have done the same thing. There's no real bar. You can compare dog poop to cement all day long, but that doesn't mean you should try to use dog poop to hold your home together.

Yes, but if you know anything about UBC (univsersl building code). Nowadays, dog poop is exactly what's holding your home together (glued together wood chips, styrofoam, stucco and chicken wire anyway) .... I'm sure there's a good analogy in there somewhere.

 

[Amr Rahmy]

the problem with most people...

more pixels does not mean more quality.

there was a reason way most people did not buy into the sony dslr, the one with insane pixel count over there canons and nikons. image quality is not measured by pixel count.

there are many problems(fundamental fatal problems) with the red and most people just choose to ignore.

to state a few:

the way they crammed too many pixels and the optical filter works, you don't get aliasing but you pay dearly for it, you loose most of the information and sharp image, the image becomes soft, the light you loose(that's a price you pay on every single frame you record).(the very reason people would consider this camera. the pixel count, is the reason it does not function properly).

the amount of light you loose right off the bat(worse than anything else including consumer camcorders), the really near clipping point(also worse than anything else), and the noise you get everywhere in the image will limit you to no end(all that is better in consumer camcorders again), and even then while abiding to all these rules that you don't normally have to(that will affect your story), you will never be able to make an entire episode or film without the weird noise creeping in.

the list can go on and on...

if i would say one thing that would work, but not considered a film, a weird cg tv production shot entirely or mostly on green screen, they are made badly anyway, so no one would mind, and the camera would look appealing to producers.

just stating one benefit on the dslr side, you can actually use the full range of lens set, and be able to frame from ultra wide to close up and anything in between. the camera will allow you to shoot things impossible on the red, from sets that actually would look like houses and dark places and streets, low light footage that actually look similar to the real world in real conditions.

some other things that may not seem very interesting like the setup time needed to make the sets and shots is dramatically different when you dont loose light to the camera, when you don't need a powerhouse to generate light for a small room. when you don't have to make a decision to change a key scene in the story because the camera cannot capture the image without noise. when you would not have to change every single light source in a location to be able to film a few seconds of footage. when you cannot shoot in public places during the day, when you cannot shoot outdoor footage most of the day or be limited to a certain direction. the production costs adds up pretty quickly.

and the out of focus area in the image of the red is not too pleasing to the eye.

i'm guessing that's enough to consider a dslr.

 

[Emanuel]

Kholi, something we must admit, as Nik said, this camera is a homerun. It seemed an unexpected business only 10 days ago.

 

[DJK]

I was just saying that there will not be enough of a quality difference for most of those people to want to spend thousands more on a S35 Scarlet. It will be a much different playing field than it is now when Scarlet is released.

Yes, but before (in the post I was replying to), you didn't seem to be referring to future DSLRs. So which is it? I mean, it's one thing to suggest that, when Scarlet is finally released, there may be DSLRs which can rival it's image quality. But to suggest that current ones (shooting 1080p with line-skipping) will... it seems a little absurd.

I mean, sure, maybe if everything is compressed to 720p on YouTube or Vimeo, there might not be a very noticeable difference. But how shortsighted would a person have to be in order to buy a camera based on what they could get away with when compressing their footage to the current standard of web video? Even if that's the only place your videos are going to be seen, things are certainly going to advance beyond that.

Do I believe Scarlet will have the edge in IQ and in post work flow? Yes, but will it be worth thousands more to most people. No, I don't think it will.

I would imagine that by "thousands more", you're referring to the difference in price between the 5/7D and the S35 Scarlet. But even suggesting that it would take the S35 Scarlet to beat the current crop of DSLRs seems far-fetched. As I said before, it seems likely that even the 2/3 Fixed Lens Scarlet will blow the 5/7D away in terms of image quality, not to mention features. If 3k RAW and 120 fps isn't worth a little more to you than a 1080p line-skipping H.264 camera with a max framerate of 60 in 720p, did you ever really need a camera like the Scarlet in the first place?

My perception of this is, sure, RED is trying to reach an entirely new segment of the market with the Scarlet, but still, if you'd be willing to settle for a 1080p line-skipping DSLR with limited framerates, over what RED has to offer, you were never part of their intended market in the first place. That's the impression I get, anyway.

 

[f64manray]

Yes, but before (in the post I was replying to), you didn't seem to be referring to future DSLRs. So which is it? I mean, it's one thing to suggest that, when Scarlet is finally released, there may be DSLRs which can rival it's image quality. But to suggest that current ones (shooting 1080p with line-skipping) will... it seems a little absurd.

Seems a little absurd? It seems mega hella absurd, but here we are discussing it, and their discussing it on the Red forums as well. This current state (never mind the future) of VDSLR technology is being compared not to the non existent Scarlet but to Red's premeire camera Red One. I hear repeatedly that 5DII can be intercut with the Red One successfully. The 5DII is being intercut with whatever main cameras are being used on the network series "Washington Field". You keep saying it's absurd, but it's being done. The quality is there now, so say the pros with much more experience than you and I. h.264 may be more of a finishing codec, but if you can get it right in camera with picture styles, so much the better. It's my understanding that the 5DII image can be flattened out to some extent which will allow it to be tweeked even more in post. Sure it's not Red Raw, but at $1,700 for the 7D, I think it's a sacrifice many will make. Right now I'm trying to make decisions about exactly what I need to acchomplish my goals with the image quality that I need at this time and people like Charter, Laforet, Bloom and others are saying the 5DII IQ is there now. I was on my way to buy a DVX100, then the D90 was released, and it's been a roller coaster ride ever since.

Red makes a fine camera, but if I can finish out in camera with only moderate grading in post, I think that work flow would suit me better at this time.

I mean, sure, maybe if everything is compressed to 720p on YouTube or Vimeo, there might not be a very noticeable difference. But how shortsighted would a person have to be in order to buy a camera based on what they could get away with when compressing their footage to the current standard of web video? Even if that's the only place your videos are going to be seen, things are certainly going to advance beyond that.

Yes, Jim. They probably will. I'm glad I could inspire you to become a DVXuser member.

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

but still, if you'd be willing to settle for a 1080p line-skipping DSLR with limited framerates, over what RED has to offer, you were never part of their intended market in the first place. That's the impression I get, anyway.

Dude don't be condescending, the reason people in here are using Panny, Canon and Nikon DSLRs is because they EXIST and they are cheap! Plain and simple, not a big deal really. We want tools that give us the best price to performance ratio that is within our financial reach and that means different things to different people but there is no denying what these new cams bring to the table. And once Scarlet gets to the table we can all go to reduser and troll about how Canon is gonna kick their a$$ when the xDmkxx comes out or what ever the f--- is on Canon rumors next year.

 

[Justyn]

From another stand-point who's to say that the next generation of Red cameras won't be plagued with build after build to get things right. Here in town, at the big red showcase they weren't able to get the camera to boot up and work for the presentation. On another shoot the next day, they had to ice the camera down from the heat. Now, that's something rather disconcerting and I read in a report from a DP that he had to usually start and restart the Red one atleast 3 times and sometimes as many as 6 times. With the long boot up time, that could be a deal killer. Maybe its the nature of being a true start up and competition being what it is, these other manufacturers have their tech worked out.. and have the resources and experience to deliver something that is ready for primetime from day one.


Either way, I think the time is here to consider a purchase for my next feature and possibly to purchase 3 of them.. Whatever it may be. Shooting film, renting a film camera, or renting an expensive HD camera doesn't seem like a smart decision.. My shoot goes down in 18 months or so... during that time, maybe these buggers will be given away in kids cereal.. who knows...


I will say it's exciting times and all of this explosion within the last 5 years. Amazing!

 

[Justyn]

Johnny... You are right there, that did sound a bit condesending.. but that's the point and the arguments those will have who have vested themselves in higher end stuff. I remember being told that you can't edit full motion video on ATA drives when my buddy was doing his editing on expensive SCSI drives and expensive capture cards.. Firewire was a huge advance there and it left a lot of people pissed who invested so heaviliy in systems that were.. well bloated.

It's like anyone who had a varicam.. I used to rent that camera but then when the HVXs came out... I didn't see much point.. Sure, nicer glass and all that but there were limits to its usability and it was also 1500 bucks a day to rent.

you'll always get those condesending looks and comments but who cares when the results speak for themselves. There's quite a bit of footage out there that compares the cameras and there really isn't that much of a difference..

Maybe you get a snobby attitude, a beret and a free steak dinner when you buy a Red. Hey... that's some good marketing.

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

LOL Thnx Justyn I need to hear that.

 

[ChipG]

From another stand-point who's to say that the next generation of Red cameras won't be plagued with build after build to get things right. Here in town, at the big red showcase they weren't able to get the camera to boot up and work for the presentation. On another shoot the next day, they had to ice the camera down from the heat. Now, that's something rather disconcerting and I read in a report from a DP that he had to usually start and restart the Red one atleast 3 times and sometimes as many as 6 times. With the long boot up time, that could be a deal killer. Maybe its the nature of being a true start up and competition being what it is, these other manufacturers have their tech worked out.. and have the resources and experience to deliver something that is ready for primetime from day one.


Either way, I think the time is here to consider a purchase for my next feature and possibly to purchase 3 of them.. Whatever it may be. Shooting film, renting a film camera, or renting an expensive HD camera doesn't seem like a smart decision.. My shoot goes down in 18 months or so... during that time, maybe these buggers will be given away in kids cereal.. who knows...


I will say it's exciting times and all of this explosion within the last 5 years. Amazing!

My exact experience with Red but it dosen't stop there, just as many if not more nightmares in post.

Dude, if your not shooting for another 18 months wait 16 months, you will have one sweet cam by that time :thumbup: a 7dii or something, maybe the Scarlet issues will be worked out and we will have 24 core computers by then.

 

[DJK]

Seems a little absurd? It seems mega hella absurd, but here we are discussing it, and their discussing it on the Red forums as well. This current state (never mind the future) of VDSLR technology is being compared not to the non existent Scarlet but to Red's premeire camera Red One. I hear repeatedly that 5DII can be intercut with the Red One successfully. The 5DII is being intercut with whatever main cameras are being used on the network series "Washington Field". You keep saying it's absurd, but it's being done. The quality is there now...

Hold on now, I never said it was absurd for the 5DII to be intercut with the RED ONE. I wasn't disputing any of that. What I was saying seems absurd, is the notion that the Scarlet won't offer a noticeable improvement in image quality over the 5DII or 7D. Right now, the 5DII may be the best alternative to something much more expensive. But the Scarlet hasn't even been released yet, so it's not as if anyone has the option to choose it instead, or has made the comparison and deemed it not worth the extra money.

Plus, remember that the Scarlet will be using a next generation Mysterium-X sensor, and thus should perform even better than the original Mysterium in the RED ONE. Of course, the RED ONE will be getting that upgrade as well, so everything will be different by then. Let's see how many people are still intercutting the 5DII or 7D with an upgraded RED ONE, when they have the choice of a Scarlet instead. Because I'm certainly not saying that the 5DII or 7D are crap -- just that it seems like the Scarlet will be significantly better... at least when things are compared "outside the Vimeo window", as someone put it earlier in this thread.

Red makes a fine camera, but if I can finish out in camera with only moderate grading in post, I think that work flow would suit me better at this time.

Well, the Scarlet is also supposed to have the FF1080p option...

Yes, Jim. They probably will. I'm glad I could inspire you to become a DVXuser member.

Hahahahaha!!!! Right... :grin: Does he post on forums in disguise?? I doubt that. Also, I actually registered here a few months ago, if you look at the date next to my name. Although I did post here for the first time because of you, so there's that...

Dude don't be condescending, the reason people in here are using Panny, Canon and Nikon DSLRs is because they EXIST and they are cheap! Plain and simple, not a big deal really. We want tools that give us the best price to performance ratio that is within our financial reach and that means different things to different people but there is no denying what these new cams bring to the table. And once Scarlet gets to the table we can all go to reduser and troll about how Canon is gonna kick their a$$ when the xDmkxx comes out or what ever the f--- is on Canon rumors next year.

I apologize if it came across that way. But, I mean, if the Scarlet manages to deliver on it's promises, one would be settling if they used a 1080p DSLR instead -- especially one with line-skipping. And if someone would rather save a little money that way, I honestly don't believe they're a part of Scarlet's intended market. If you read their forums, you see that RED is always talking about how much they care about image quality, and how they scoff at shortcuts which comprimise it. So it's obvious that with the Scarlet, they're targeting people with lower bugets, who still have the highest standards. So I'm sorry if I offended you, but I don't know how to put it any other way.

 

[tnle2]

I apologize if it came across that way. But, I mean, if the Scarlet manages to deliver on it's promises, one would be settling if they used a 1080p DSLR instead -- especially one with line-skipping. And if someone would rather save a little money that way, I honestly don't believe they're a part of Scarlet's intended market. If you read their forums, you see that RED is always talking about how much they care about image quality, and how they scoff at shortcuts which comprimise it. So it's obvious that with the Scarlet, they're targeting people with lower bugets, who still have the highest standards.

I think most (but not all) of the Scarlet market is actually more interested in value than the highest possible image quality. This market probably mainly consist of cost-conscious enthusiast so they will rather pay less if what they get for their money is at the sweet spot of "good enough." I think buying based on value is the best strategy with technology products because they get better all the time and way too soon.

When it was first announced, Scarlet was the best value because they were only competing against 1/4", 1/3" and 1/2" cameras that often cost $8K and RED was the only company willing to make a killer camera like that. This is why the Scarlet line started at 2/3" (to be just a bit better than the competition).

But now this whole thing has been turned upside down by HDSLRs. In a matter of weeks we will have shipping cameras that do 1080/24P and 720/60P on an S35 sensor for $1700. That's just astounding!! For many, this will be good enough because you're not risking a lot in depreciation. So it's reasonable to expect that a big majority of Scarlet's market will migrate down to this lower price point. This could possibly impact Scarlet's sales volume, which it needs in the first place just to exist at its price point, unless RED has finds a way to really cut cost.

Edit: True, HDSLRs are still lacking in monitoring, audio inputs/controls (and AF/AE for those that need it). But a 7D is already basically an S35 brain for $1700 (except it can't do 120 fps). If Canon can just add a tilting screen or VF and audio inputs for another $1000, 2/3" Scarlet will still be competing against an S35 sensor camera.

 

[powervideo]

I'm getting a 7D but may well get a Scarlet 2/3" as well when it comes out. It's not just picture quality. Scarlet will (should) have videographer-focussed tools like a proper EVF, on-board XLR sound, compatibility with V-mount/AB battery systems, 120fps, blah, blah, blah. Both platforms will have different strengths. DSLR's are not going to necessarily wipe out Scarlet.

Peter

 

[Nik Manning]

I agree the 7D will not wipeout the Scarlet camera but it will cut into there sales. The scarlet will sell less as a direct result of the Canon 7D being on the market. How do I know? Because I am not buying a scarlet! This is a ridiculous amount of quality and functionality for under $2k. The cheapest scarlet will be $4k. I just don't need what scarlet is offering at that price. I am sure there are a lot of shooter who feel the same way. Compare the 7D to all other cameras on the market under 10k. I think anyone who isn't shooting video as there fulltime or primary job should probably get the 7D over the scarlet.

The canon 7D is a 1080p24 camera with a super 35mm sensor for under $2k. That is the bottom line.

 

[dantewaters]

Ok I wasn't the best at math so I'm asking if someone can explain to me how big these sensors really are using something like a dime or penny to compare the sizes.



1/3" HVX
1/2" Ex1
2/3" HPX 500 / orginal scarlet

and how big is a 35mm sensor (how big is a mm in comparison to an inch).