Canon 7D killed my scarlet dreams!

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Red does indeed know how to take care of their customers. They took back the first 100 units entirely, and replaced them with "100X" units. They gave a free replacement of the audio boards to everyone who bought one. They gave the first several hundred of us a $2500 credit towards accessories. And now they're giving 100% trade-in value for a Red One against an Epic X.

Nobody else treats their customer like Red does.

I knew I was getting in early, I just didn't want to take the effort to ride it out all the way, I had many other opportunities to pursue while they sorted out the various issues. I'm not blaming them for anything, if anything I'm saying that it had to be a pretty big clusterbomb of issues that would get me to consider selling it. The images (even then, back in build 13-build 14 days) were just sooooooo nice... I really liked many aspects of it, and had it been what it is now, I'm sure I would have kept it. But there were too many hoops to jump through, too many compromises to be made, so I just got out. And this was a *long* time ago, folks. The Red experience is obviously much, much better now.
 
griffin86 said:
DJK- no offense but what is the problem with shooting with a real camera that is here today and moving up if the Scarlett or who knows comes out tomorrow?
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I wasn't trying to suggest that everyone should stop what they're doing and wait for the Scarlet. I simply disagree with the notion that cameras like the 7D are a suitable replacement for it.

on the technical side of things I think the measurbation has gotten a little overboard, we forget sometimes that manufacturers tout performances specs beyond that of which may be in the range of human perception anyhow-
http://media.panavision.com/ScreeningRoom/Screening_Room/Demystifying_Part1.html - watch these videos given by two leading authorities (vids 1-7) to get a sense of what I am saying. Also take a read into home cinema systems and how does the human eye and brain pick up on certain things- there isn't much detail beyond 50-70 lp/mm (equates to around 1000 lp/in now that ive checked) that a human eye can detect at a normal viewing distance (1.5x the screen size) under most circumstances. (see Nyquist Theorem)

I gotta find the link but the notion of 4k displays would be nice but trust there is more to worry about than a pixel count on the screen or your acquisition- not to mention that there is more to a "pixel" than meets the eye and then you ask whats 3k and all this stuff really mean? everything and nothing;-)

that is a blurb just to state that it will be a lot more than just a cam's spec that'll make headlines at the next big film fest or whatever, it'll be a filmmaker with a vision or something clever... Let's invest a lot more time here trying to work on making these limited tools reach their full potential rather than hack away until some dream camera shows up on the scene...
I, like many of the posters here would love a Scarlett or any of these cool new cameras because they'd be cool and new things just to try out but we lose sight of what's most important when we drag ourselves into a "my cam is bigger and better than xx's" debacle.
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Alright, I actually watched all 7 parts of that, and I did actually learn a few things I hadn't known and/or fully understood. Although, I was already aware of the fact that the output resolution doesn't mean much unless everything else is done well. But I'm still not sure I understand what's leading people to believe that RED won't do everything else well with the Scarlet. Sure, 3k or 5k don't guarantee anything on their own, but why are some people automatically assuming that RED won't get it right, and that their 3k+ images won't reach their full potential? I mean, with REDCODE, and the new Mysterium-X sensor, it seems promising, does it not? Maybe there's something I'm still missing here...



If it doesn't mean anything for you to wait an indefinite amount of time for a camera that may be better, then more power to you. But there's always going to be something better over the horizon. At $1,700, a compromised (everything has compromises of some sort) camera that lets me shoot now (or a month from now, as the case may be) has much more value than a camera whose availability to me might be a year or more away and that may or may not live up to the specs. It's not like it costs $20,000. And even if I stop using the Canon as a video camera in favor of something better, it still has use as a still camera. But, it may well be that the $1,700 Canon does everything I need it to do, negating the need for anything better for an even longer period of time.
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Again, I never meant to suggest that people shouldn't get anything else in the meantime. But some are acting as if cameras like the 5DII and 7D have already made the Scarlet obsolete, even if it does live up to the specs. My point is simply that, if the Scarlet performs as advertised, it doesn't seem like current 1080p DSLRs would be any match for even the 2/3 fixed lens version, and certainly not the S35 version shooting at 5k.


I mean, despite all the talk about how the sensor size of these DSLRs makes them comparable to Scarlet, a while ago I saw a comparison of the RED ONE vs the 5DII. While the 5DII obviously killed the RED ONE in low light performance (not sure what build it was, as I read recently that low light performance has improved significantly), the RED ONE actually had significantly better dynamic range. And RED is saying that the new Mysterium-X sensor has even more DR and less noise, and that even the Scarlet will have more DR than the RED ONE does (before an upgrade to Mysterium-X). So think how much more DR the Scarlet should have than the 5DII and 7D... plus higher resolution, higher framerates, REDCODE, etc. Those are the reasons why I don't understand how these current DSLRs could possibly be a match for Scarlet.

Barry_Green said:
For those who were in the market for a large-sensor HD camera with interchangeable lenses, surely these provide a compelling alternative to the much-more-expensive fixed-lens Scarlet ("full shooting kit at $3750"). I dare say that that whole segment of the market, who would otherwise have gone for a Scarlet, are probably not going to anymore.
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Okay, I do see what you mean there. But after spending some time on RED's forums, there are a lot of people who specifically want features the Scarlet will have, and a 5DII or 7D would not meet their needs. So sure, maybe Scarlet's market would've been even larger if not for cameras like the 7D, but then that's only because those people never really needed it in the first place. Like you said, it offered far more, and now these DSLRs bridge the gap.

Athough, there's also the entire prosumer video market, which you'd think Scarlet could completely take over. I mean, if a 2/3 fixed lens Scarlet could outperform camcorders more than twice the price, why would anybody buy anything else? Plus, people like that would probably be a lot less likely to settle for a DSLR, as they would've been paying a lot more for a prosumer camcorder anyway, and thus a Scarlet would still save them money. That, to me, seems like it's true market. I mean, if Scarlet lives up to the specs, every single prosumer camcorder over $3750 would essentially become obsolete. Right?

To others, you can get (potentially) even better imagery out of a $1700 DSLR, with interchangeable lenses. And that will be incredibly appealing.
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Better? I'd imagine you mean, if Scarlet doesn't live up to the hype. Right?

(p.s. you keep talking about "line-skipping" -- have you seen quality GH1 or 5DMkII footage on an HDTV?)
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Well, I wasn't very impressed by the little footage I've seen from the GH1. I saw one clip with horrible aliasing. As for the 5DII, I realize it can look fantastic in the right conditions, but there can also be aliasing under the right circumstances. And I saw a 7D clip with shockingly bad aliasing on a diagonal railing. I have a hard time overlooking things like that. The thought of a 3k Scarlet without those issues, and all the other features it'll have... it seems well worth the extra money to me.
 
Scarlet will definitely be worth it at $4K I don't think anyone is saying that it won't be. I think we are just saying that for less than half we can have a camera that does enough. All we really wanted was 1080p24 without pulldown crap, bigger chips, and better compression than hdv. We would have been happy with that for under $4K but to have it all for under $2k is amazing and it still is a DSLR!. The problem we see is that soon every DSLR manufacturer will add video to their cams effectively making all of them cinema cams. The compression is already better on the 7D than it was on the 5D.
 
And in the year or two years or five years or twenty years it takes to actually get Scarlet to market, no telling what else will be out there.
 
ethan cooper said:
I was thinking about this very topic this morning. Originally I was in the 7D might have killed off the 2/3" Scarlet camp but the more thought I put into it the more I began to change my mind.

For video people, the second the 2/3 Scarlets hit the market we'll be slapping ourselves on the forehead and chiding ourselves for even considering some of these early vDSLRs as viable options. .
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Totally agree. If you ever used a pro-cam with the shoulder-formfactor and a good lens with fast zoom and 2/3 DOF you will hate to use anything like a HPX170, EX-1 etc. But we do for the money they cost.

Now these DSLRs are worse: they have the image we want, but much cheaper....and a formfactor that kills you. You need to build around and buy lenses and oops you are up in the 7k region again at least. Still no audio though, no decent monitoring, no RAW codec......there is still a lot left to be developped.
The good news: you only buy lenses once. so after your initial setup, these vDSLR become really really cheap....but a scarlet with the features you need when doing film will easily come my way if the pricedifference is reasonable
 
DJK said:
I wasn't trying to suggest that everyone should stop what they're doing and wait for the Scarlet. I simply disagree with the notion that cameras like the 7D are a suitable replacement for it.
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Well, here's the thing. I don't think that anybody here, except for f64manray, would disagree with you, if money were not an issue. But that is a major issue for a lot of people here. You have to remember that before the D90 and 5D Mark II were announced, people were used to spending a grand for the Canon HV20, or four for the Canon XH-A1 or Sony Z1/V1, or six for the HVX200. Two years ago, that was considered to be ground-breaking price/performance ratios. And then when RED announced the Scarlet, people were over the moon, because it offered state-of-the-art imagery at a price competitive with what people were used to spending for prosumer camcorders.

But then the Scarlet suffered delays and price increases, and the DSLRs were announced. Like Isaac said, a couple of years ago he never dreamed that he could get the image quality that the GH1 and 7D offer for less than $2K. Before the Scarlet was announced, nobody dreamed that RED-quality footage could be had for less than $30K. People want stunning imagery, but not everyone can afford it. I'll bet that many avid followers of Scarlet only had HV20s, etc., as the best that they could afford. So when the GH1 and the 7D come along and offer what they do for less than $2K, it's a sigh of relief for those people who were worrying themselves over how they were going to scrape together even $3K-4K for the Scarlet.

The other thing though is that there are plenty of people who don't want to deal with RED's workflow, who are worried about first-generation bugs (and the RED One experience has been painful for the early adopters), and who actually prefer the DSLR form factor. For them, being able to capture footage that's casually comparable to RED's is good enough, and they're happy to lose all of the other things that the Scarlet's offering. If you go over to the GH1 forum, you can read commanderspike complaining about how the 7D is "too heavy" to be very usable for him. The Scarlet, compact though it might be, is still larger than a DSLR, according to the most recent renders.

But I'm still not sure I understand what's leading people to believe that RED won't do everything else well with the Scarlet. Sure, 3k or 5k don't guarantee anything on their own, but why are some people automatically assuming that RED won't get it right, and that their 3k+ images won't reach their full potential? I mean, with REDCODE, and the new Mysterium-X sensor, it seems promising, does it not? Maybe there's something I'm still missing here...
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Plenty of people want to be cynical and skeptical. That's natural for any promised product, even one from the big boys. It's not an unreasonable stance. I'm personally very optimistic because the RED team has proven itself in my eyes. But that's also because I am a fan, though not yet user, of RED. More people are RED skeptics, critics, and haters than you might think.

Again, I never meant to suggest that people shouldn't get anything else in the meantime. But some are acting as if cameras like the 5DII and 7D have already made the Scarlet obsolete, even if it does live up to the specs.
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If they don't need all that Scarlet offers, then it has become "obsolete" for them.

Athough, there's also the entire prosumer video market, which you'd think Scarlet could completely take over. I mean, if a 2/3 fixed lens Scarlet could outperform camcorders more than twice the price, why would anybody buy anything else? Plus, people like that would probably be a lot less likely to settle for a DSLR, as they would've been paying a lot more for a prosumer camcorder anyway, and thus a Scarlet would still save them money. That, to me, seems like it's true market. I mean, if Scarlet lives up to the specs, every single prosumer camcorder over $3750 would essentially become obsolete. Right?
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I whole-heartedly agree with you here, which is why I think that all of the grumbling about RED's pricing is ridiculous. I mean, come on, there are still small-chip HDV, XDCAM, and DVCPro HD camcorders being sold in the $9K-25K range, so how can the Scarlet, which should outclass them all, possibly be considered "overpriced"? But again, people just don't want to pay for that quality. And again, those are the people who are used to lower-end equipment, and hence, lower-end prices.
 
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The vast majority of non-feature filmmakers could care less about RAW. It will have an even lower penetration than RAW has with still photographers. A good portion of pro still photographers find RAW to be a nuisance rather than an advantage. I think the Scarlet and other RED cameras will be mighty impressive when and if you can actually buy one, but having a format that requires so much extra time, effort and computing horsepower to deal with can be a real drag.

If RED gave you a choice of say H.264, AVCINTRA (or something like it) OR RAW, then they would be talking but am I correct in thinking that the Scarlet will only shoot REDCODE RAW? I gave up on trying to keep up with the ever changing specs about a year ago.

I also don't think that most DVXers understand how small the market is for a serious cinema camera, it is really only a few ten thousands worldwide, if that and a significant number of those potential buyers have already moved on to pastures where you can actually buy a camera whether it is the HPX300, 5D MKII/7D, GH1 or higher end stuff like the S2K, etc. It will be mighty interesting to see if RED can successfully turn Scarlet into a more mass market product or if it will remain a boutique product with just a few thousand sold worldwide.

Dan
 
DJK said:
I wasn't trying to suggest that everyone should stop what they're doing and wait for the Scarlet. I simply disagree with the notion that cameras like the 7D are a suitable replacement for it.
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Yet, for many people, it certainly will be. The DOF of the S35 Scarlet, for 1/4th the price. It won't do everything the Scarlet will do, but does it do enough? Does it do what they need? If so, then they may very well find it to be a suitable replacement. For those wanting a RAW workflow and 120fps overcranking and 5K imaging, of course the DSLR wouldn't even be under consideration.

Okay, I do see what you mean there. But after spending some time on RED's forums, there are a lot of people who specifically want features the Scarlet will have, and a 5DII or 7D would not meet their needs.
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Undoubtedly agreed! Red is a pure digital cinema company, making digital cinema products. The 7D is, like it or not, a still camera with a video feature added on. The GH1 is a little bit more of a hybrid, but essentially the same thing. Yet the Scarlet is targeted to be a dedicated cinema camera. Therefore, it will certainly offer many more features. Features that cinema shooters will want and crave. But not everyone will, not everyone has the same requirements, and the half-price or 1/4 price or whatever of the DSLR will most likely remain an enchanting alternative for that segment of the market.

So sure, maybe Scarlet's market would've been even larger if not for cameras like the 7D, but then that's only because those people never really needed it in the first place.
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Exactly true. What I said earlier is that there was simply *nothing* in the marketplace that had a 2/3" or larger sensor, for under $14,000, so of course the Scarlet looked tantalizing to everyone... it did things nothing else did, and therefore everyone wanted it, whether they needed all that it could do or not... But now, there are several products with a MUCH larger than 2/3" sensor, for under $2,000. For folks who wanted that, who wanted an HD 1080/24p camera with cinema DOF, they now have a few potentially very viable alternatives, that are available today.

I expect Scarlet to offer more. Much more. Frankly, I think the best move Red could make would be to ditch the ultra-cheap Scarlets, don't try to get in a knock-down drag-out with Canon and Nikon and Panasonic in a race for the bottom-dollar customer, and instead make a truly great product. The $7,000 to $10,000 segment has proven popular enough, and it's a high enough price point that they could make a great, great product that does way more than a $1700 DSLR ever could. Then again, I'm not (yet) a billionaire businessman like Jim Jannard, and I'm certain he has carefully considered the landscape of today and what it's likely to be tomorrow and will make the right move, whatever that move is.

Athough, there's also the entire prosumer video market, which you'd think Scarlet could completely take over. I mean, if a 2/3 fixed lens Scarlet could outperform camcorders more than twice the price, why would anybody buy anything else?
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Because the Red One isn't a video camera, shooting to Raw format isn't a video system, it's its own thing. Presumably Scarlet will follow suit. Prosumer video means weddings and events and local commercials and news stringers and freelancers and kids' sports audition tapes for college recruiters and memorial videos at funerals and ... well, dozens of markets, none of which are likely to require or even benefit from using a dedicated digital cinema camera. And none of which would likely benefit from using a video-enabled DSLR, either. Those are markets where a traditional video camera would be the much preferable tool.

I mean, if Scarlet lives up to the specs, every single prosumer camcorder over $3750 would essentially become obsolete. Right?
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I would dare say no, and not only "no", but "not even close". Video cameras are sold to an entirely different industry than digital cinema cameras are. Unless... perhaps Red is modifying the Scarlet to be a true video camera in addition to a raw digital cinema camera... oooh... if *that* happens, then all bets are off.
 
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I wish everyone in this thread would either:

A) Compare the 5D2/7D to a PDF file.
B) Compare *future* theoretical offerings from Canon/Sony/Nikon/Panasonic to Scarlet.

Comparing *current* DSLRs with *future* Red cameras is ridiculous.

My question to all the Red fans on this thread: In your opinion, once Scarlet actually ships in decent volume, when will the Big Four release products that will compete head to head with it?
 
Barry_Green said:
Frankly, I think the best move Red could make would be to ditch the ultra-cheap Scarlets, don't try to get in a knock-down drag-out with Canon and Nikon and Panasonic in a race for the bottom-dollar customer, and instead make a truly great product. The $7,000 to $10,000 segment has proven popular enough, and it's a high enough price point that they could make a great, great product that does way more than a $1700 DSLR ever could. Then again, I'm not (yet) a billionaire businessman like Jim Jannard, and I'm certain he has carefully considered the landscape of today and what it's likely to be tomorrow and will make the right move, whatever that move is.
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I've been thinking the same thing ever since the manual control update on the 5D2. RED has carved out such a bad-ass niche for themselves. That niche is threatening the hell out of Arri, Panavision and Cinealta. Creating the relatively cheap cinema camera that could. And now that they're a proven formula with blockbuster releases, their "Base" is more loyal than ever, more credible than ever, expanding rapidly and will buy anything that's marketed to them. They are the Apple computers of cameras and Jannard is the new Jobs. I think he needs to stay in the lower end pro/higher end prosumer range and become the new industry standard or atleast a niche-standard like FCS.
Obviously I don't know squat compared to Jannard, but that seems like a space for his company to operate in while the Japanese bohemoths fight for the walmart/bestbuy customers. Which is not an insult, if you came to my house you would see how much of a walmart/bestbuy average schlep I am :)
 
Barry_Green said:
For those wanting a RAW workflow and 120fps overcranking and 5K imaging, of course the DSLR wouldn't even be under consideration.
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Not to be pedantic Barry, but the 5K Scarlet (aka S35 Scarlet) "only" does 72fps burst mode or full at 2K.

FWIW, I don't think RED has scrapped the 3K Scarlets. Scratch that. I hope they don't.
 
Dingos8mybaby said:
Not to be pedantic Barry, but the 5K Scarlet (aka S35 Scarlet) "only" does 72fps burst mode or full at 2K.

FWIW, I don't think RED has scrapped the 3K Scarlets. Scratch that. I hope they don't.
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The Scarlet doesn't exist yet. The announced product called S35 Scarlet is supposed to do "only" 72 fps @ 2K.
All could change tomorrow as far as I know, but today that's the situation.
 
DJK said:
I wasn't trying to suggest that everyone should stop what they're doing and wait for the Scarlet. I simply disagree with the notion that cameras like the 7D are a suitable replacement for it.




Alright, I actually watched all 7 parts of that, and I did actually learn a few things I hadn't known and/or fully understood. Although, I was already aware of the fact that the output resolution doesn't mean much unless everything else is done well. But I'm still not sure I understand what's leading people to believe that RED won't do everything else well with the Scarlet. Sure, 3k or 5k don't guarantee anything on their own, but why are some people automatically assuming that RED won't get it right, and that their 3k+ images won't reach their full potential? I mean, with REDCODE, and the new Mysterium-X sensor, it seems promising, does it not? Maybe there's something I'm still missing here...






Again, I never meant to suggest that people shouldn't get anything else in the meantime. But some are acting as if cameras like the 5DII and 7D have already made the Scarlet obsolete, even if it does live up to the specs. My point is simply that, if the Scarlet performs as advertised, it doesn't seem like current 1080p DSLRs would be any match for even the 2/3 fixed lens version, and certainly not the S35 version shooting at 5k.


I mean, despite all the talk about how the sensor size of these DSLRs makes them comparable to Scarlet, a while ago I saw a comparison of the RED ONE vs the 5DII. While the 5DII obviously killed the RED ONE in low light performance (not sure what build it was, as I read recently that low light performance has improved significantly), the RED ONE actually had significantly better dynamic range. And RED is saying that the new Mysterium-X sensor has even more DR and less noise, and that even the Scarlet will have more DR than the RED ONE does (before an upgrade to Mysterium-X). So think how much more DR the Scarlet should have than the 5DII and 7D... plus higher resolution, higher framerates, REDCODE, etc. Those are the reasons why I don't understand how these current DSLRs could possibly be a match for Scarlet.



Okay, I do see what you mean there. But after spending some time on RED's forums, there are a lot of people who specifically want features the Scarlet will have, and a 5DII or 7D would not meet their needs. So sure, maybe Scarlet's market would've been even larger if not for cameras like the 7D, but then that's only because those people never really needed it in the first place. Like you said, it offered far more, and now these DSLRs bridge the gap.

Athough, there's also the entire prosumer video market, which you'd think Scarlet could completely take over. I mean, if a 2/3 fixed lens Scarlet could outperform camcorders more than twice the price, why would anybody buy anything else? Plus, people like that would probably be a lot less likely to settle for a DSLR, as they would've been paying a lot more for a prosumer camcorder anyway, and thus a Scarlet would still save them money. That, to me, seems like it's true market. I mean, if Scarlet lives up to the specs, every single prosumer camcorder over $3750 would essentially become obsolete. Right?



Better? I'd imagine you mean, if Scarlet doesn't live up to the hype. Right?



Well, I wasn't very impressed by the little footage I've seen from the GH1. I saw one clip with horrible aliasing. As for the 5DII, I realize it can look fantastic in the right conditions, but there can also be aliasing under the right circumstances. And I saw a 7D clip with shockingly bad aliasing on a diagonal railing. I have a hard time overlooking things like that. The thought of a 3k Scarlet without those issues, and all the other features it'll have... it seems well worth the extra money to me.
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I tried in vain to halt the flood of over expectation ridiculous comparisions between the Red and DSLR's but they wont have any of it. They want as amateur as possible even they are given pro equipment and wont be happy until they have a camera that costs the price of a bigmac it seems. They'll tell you its all about the artist and not the tools, to justify their annoyance that the just bought a 7D and are trying to convince themselves its as good as the soon to come Scarlett. Save you energy for something positive and go to Reduser and learn the workflow. Those who cling to the The Underground out of choice are losers.
 
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