Canon 7D killed my scarlet dreams!

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A 7D would only be for personal shorts and music vids I want to direct, not for jobs. I won't have to rent out lenses because I have a great range of Nikons and Tamrons. It will free me up some I think. I feel so calcified shooting with larger cams for other people sometimes.

You're right about that HDMI out though. Perhaps someone can make an HDMI to HD-SDI converter that could be permanently fixed to that output. Perhaps not technically possible.
 
squig said:
The thing is cinemas with digital projection are projecting @ 2k. if you can expose correctly with a Canon DSLR the codec holds up pretty well compared to raw so the only advantage I can see with a scarlet is if you want to underexpose. As for color space I'm pretty content with grading MKII footage as is. Am I missing something here?
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I know LA is ahead of the curve, but even our local independent theater is about to add 4K projection. It won't be long before it's common enough that 2K is considered a compromise, in a theatrical setting -- like having to play your 5.1 mix back in stereo. It's very good, but why not future-proof your work as much as possible? If doing so is within your financial means, of course.
 
squig said:
The thing is cinemas with digital projection are projecting @ 2k. if you can expose correctly with a Canon DSLR the codec holds up pretty well compared to raw so the only advantage I can see with a scarlet is if you want to underexpose. As for color space I'm pretty content with grading MKII footage as is. Am I missing something here?
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Squig, Squig, Squig..... *sigh*
You just don't get it. Scarlet is vaporware I mean magical, so... it's kinda of mythical and imaginary and it can be anything we want. When we wanted a camera to save us from the lame 1/3" prosumer and the expensive 2/3" pro cams here came Scarlet a $3500 to $7000 2/3" camera. And when FF and APS-C DSLRs came and we need to be rescued from the horrible codecs, the ghastly "mud" and "OMG WE NEED A BIGGER SENSOR BUT THAT SENSOR IS TOOOOOO BIG"... wait, the S35 Scarlet has raw, a pristine image (which it actually does from the Izzy clips, no joke) and this sensor size is just right! And just like anything else in the magical Red Forest, it's subject to change and keep our imaginations fresh with awesome new camera... brochures. At least their graphic designers are hard at work :grin:
Seriously I think thier marketing policies are questionable at best and unethical at worst. The RED ONE IS AMAZING, IT IS REVOLUTIONIZING FILMMAKING! BUT the way they treat product development like an imaginary carrot in front of hungry gullible faithful donkeys... not cool.
I SINCERELY HOPE THAT THE SCARLET COMES OUT AND IS A FANTASTIC, EVEN LIFE CHANGING CAMERA AND I LOOK LIKE A TOTAL D-BAG! But it's doesn't make thier trade practices right.
 
Yeah Zak I read about the sony 4k projectors but I'm thinking in terms of a 12 month timeframe for my feature and I need a cam that actually exists well in advance so I know wtf I'm doing with it. if the scarlet comes out spring next year I can only image what canon and maybe even nikon and panny can deliver by then. I started school this week and they have a red but I'm still keen on shooting the film with a MKII/7D because I know it intimately and I can pick it up and shoot something whenever I want and I think my script holds up so nobody is gonna pixel peep, plus I'm too poor for a scarlet.

And Johnny remember I was the one who said "scarlet is a brochure" but I'm down with raw as much as the next guy but I want it in an 800gsm DSLR body for under $3000 so I'll be waiting a while and will live with the pretty **** hot options we now have available.
 
it just makes me happy that we have the luxury of arguing over which, 35mm lensed, 1080p camera we want to buy for under 2,000$.......

:)

try imagining this 1 year ago... or 5.....
 
squig said:
Yeah Zak I read about the sony 4k projectors but I'm thinking in terms of a 12 month timeframe for my feature and I need a cam that actually exists well in advance so I know wtf I'm doing with it. if the scarlet comes out spring next year I can only image what canon and maybe even nikon and panny can deliver by then. I started school this week and they have a red but I'm still keen on shooting the film with a MKII/7D because I know it intimately and I can pick it up and shoot something whenever I want and I think my script holds up so nobody is gonna pixel peep, plus I'm too poor for a scarlet.

And Johnny remember I was the one who said "scarlet is a brochure" but I'm down with raw as much as the next guy but I want it in an 800gsm DSLR body for under $3000 so I'll be waiting a while and will live with the pretty shi* hot options we now have available.
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I can understand that. I'm doing the same with the D90. :) I recently had two Red One owners offer me use of their camera at no charge just because they like my movies. And I'm still sticking with the D90 for now because i prefer the small, unobtrusive form-factor.

Johnny Cola said:
Squig, Squig, Squig..... *sigh*
You just don't get it. Scarlet is vaporware I mean magical, so... it's kinda of mythical and imaginary and it can be anything we want. When we wanted a camera to save us from the lame 1/3" prosumer and the expensive 2/3" pro cams here came Scarlet a $3500 to $7000 2/3" camera. And when FF and APS-C DSLRs came and we need to be rescued from the horrible codecs, the ghastly "mud" and "OMG WE NEED A BIGGER SENSOR BUT THAT SENSOR IS TOOOOOO BIG"... wait, the S35 Scarlet has raw, a pristine image (which it actually does from the Izzy clips, no joke) and this sensor size is just right! And just like anything else in the magical Red Forest, it's subject to change and keep our imaginations fresh with awesome new camera... brochures. At least their graphic designers are hard at work :grin:
Seriously I think thier marketing policies are questionable at best and unethical at worst. The RED ONE IS AMAZING, IT IS REVOLUTIONIZING FILMMAKING! BUT the way they treat product development like an imaginary carrot in front of hungry gullible faithful donkeys... not cool.
I SINCERELY HOPE THAT THE SCARLET COMES OUT AND IS A FANTASTIC, EVEN LIFE CHANGING CAMERA AND I LOOK LIKE A TOTAL D-BAG! But it's doesn't make thier trade practices right.
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I try to give the members of this community a lot of credit. I don't fault them for talking about what's on our horizon. you want to throw out words like "imaginary" and "vaporware" and "brochure", that's great. but like I said, I give this community a lot of credit I don't think they're blind. or stupid. And I certainly don't condescend to them saying they are wasting their time by eye-balling a camera that hasn't been built yet, especially if the alternative is to covet cameras that are in pre-order limbo. not much of a difference there in terms of practical use. anyway, I'm personally not one to get caught up in hype. I suppose that is a choice. But I'm also keenly aware of where digital cinema is headed, because its my livelihood to know. And i'm always doing my best to think three, four, five moves ahead in the game. I'm optimistic that Red will or has quietly revised their Scarlet line to compete realistically with the burgeoning technology. so for me its a DSLR today, with an eye toward DSMC on the horizon. Red can do what they want marketing-wise. I don't see anything unethical about building and sustaining a willing community. It's not like they're spamming my inbox on myspace/facebook/etc.
 
It really is Amazing. Imagine what things will be like even this time next year... I mean we will still be waiting for Scarlet and Duke nukem forever, but other than that haha.
 
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Zak Forsman said:
I can understand that. I'm doing the same with the D90. hell, I've had two Red One owners offer me use of their camera at no charge just because they like my movies. And I'm still sticking with the D90 for now because i prefer small, unobtrusive form-factor.
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So far the 7D looks like everything we wish the D90 could have been and after spending a couple of months with the MKII I just can't see what could be wrong with it or where it could be lacking for anybody who knows wtf they are doing.
 
squig said:
So far the 7D looks like everything we wish the D90 could have been and after spending a couple of months with the MKII I just can't see what could be wrong with it or where it could be lacking for anybody who knows wtf they are doing.
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... an articulated LCD??
 
squig said:
So far the 7D looks like everything we wish the D90 could have been and after spending a couple of months with the MKII I just can't see what could be wrong with it or where it could be lacking for anybody who knows wtf they are doing.
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that's cool. it's not enough of a difference for me to switch right now. wish I hd more time to devote to following the developments of these cameras a little closer, but i've just been way too busy with the filmmaking. it's funny, we're all talking about where we'll be in six months. how much time elapsed between the GH1 and the 7D? imagine where we'll be next month! haha! :)
 
I think he sums this up nicely. Even though the thread is about killing one person's Scarlet Dreams. I have never had Scarlet dreams because I did not and do not think It will be released for a couple of years.

ORIGINAL POST BY BARRY GREEN:


Not necessarily; Canon (and Panasonic and Nikon) are doing to the *announced* Scarlet specifications. But since Red's "gone quiet" we don't know what the actual intended Scarlet will be.

I put up a big post here a couple weeks ago saying that IMO the 2/3" scarlet is DBA (dead before arrival), but a full-frame or S35 scarlet, priced competitively (i.e., not $8,000 for a brain alone, but maybe $3,000) might still be very much alive, especially with any wonders that they may have devised or implemented between then and now.

But yeah, a fixed-lens 2/3" scarlet at $3750 has lost pretty much all of its appeal in the face of a $1500 (with lens) GH1 or $1700 body-only 7D, each with a sensor at least 4x as large as 2/3".

Clearly the ball is back in Red's court. They would have to do something phenomenal to recapture the momentum. The landscape is very different now than it was back at NAB 2008. I think they've got it within themselves to deliver something phenomenal; they are, after all, exclusively a digital cinema company, and Canon and Nikon are almost exclusively still-camera companies with video "grafted on", so there's still quite a bit of room for Red to really appeal.

But no doubt the rules have changed. It's no longer a case of "forget anything else, just wait for the Scarlet", it's now a case of "I can't wait to see how the Scarlet's going to be competitive, in light of the new options out there."

Funny thing is, everyone was so jazzed initially about Red because they were a small company that could react quickly, but now it's the behemoths (Nikon/Canon/Panasonic) who are innovating and changing things at a furious pace!
 
I´d disagree here: RED should change their approach on their "low-end" by only offering a READY TO USE fixed zoom lens 2/3" or APS-C Scarlett, with viewfinder, xlr inputs and the option of recording sth like AVCintra to SDHC cards (with their Redcode as an option).
Stick with the 3K pricetag and many filmers would choose this over any VDSLR.
The 5D/7D may offer the image quality we all want, but besides being "unobstrusive" it just ain´t a videocamera.

But hopefully Canons video department will deliver all this soon...
Anyways, the good thing right now is, that no matter what you decide on, you can already achieve amazing results at a ridiculously low price tag...!
 
I was thinking about this very topic this morning. Originally I was in the 7D might have killed off the 2/3" Scarlet camp but the more thought I put into it the more I began to change my mind.

For video people, the second the 2/3 Scarlets hit the market we'll be slapping ourselves on the forehead and chiding ourselves for even considering some of these early vDSLRs as viable options. Problem is, we haven't seen Scarlet yet, haven't been made fully aware of what it offers in terms of image quality, workflow, inputs, and all the subtitle well thought out details that make using a camera a joy instead of a headache. I do think Red can sell a bundle of 2/3" Scarlets but it will take them hitting the streets before many realize, "oh yeah, that's what a decent camera should be like" and get rid of their vDSLRs.
 
Zak Forsman said:
These DSLRs are cheap enough that i don't mind picking up one or two, or renting them every now and then. But I'm still set on getting one, if not a pair of S35 Scarlets the day they are available. I want a true digital cinema camera that can be configured into a DLSR form factor. I want raw data to push around in post. 3K, 4K, 5K... I can handle it, I welcome it, I demand it!
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Exactly.
 
I would love an APS-C/S35 Scarlet!!! Why? Because it would be a "real" (no pun intended, this time) video canmera. I love/need the form factor, controls and audio section that prosumer cameras have. I'm highly adaptable and can get used to DSLRs even in thier current state but to have the functionality and physical aesthetics of what works for what I want to do would be great.
Now, I'm not attacking any person on these forums when I call Scarlet vaproware. I sincerely and profusely appologize if my late night rant read as such. BUT IT IS BY DEFINITION (wikipedia atleast) VAPORWARE. Why? Because that's how this product is marketed, it is not illegal but is prickish at the very least.

"Vaporware is a term used to describe a product, usually software, that has been announced by a developer during or before its development and, therefore, may never actually be released. The term is usually applied to products which fail to emerge after having well-exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product. The term implies unwarranted optimism, an as yet unannounced abandonment of a project, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility. However, most vaporware would not be considered a hoax since the makers have a genuine intention to create their product, even if it ultimately never materializes."
 
Well, if you think S35 1080p is enough for you then you didn't need a Scarlet in the first place. As far as post goes with h.264, I have no idea, but I would assume it's a little cramped like my MJPEG Nikon D90 footage, which really isn't all that bad in my opinion. You've got to think about what more resolution gets you and what a RAW workflow can bring to your film. Certainly you'll get clearer images all around but whether that gets seen is entirely dependent on the success/purpose of the production. For visual effects you need all the resolution you can get just so you can dirty the footage up a bit to blend in the effects. Although digital projection has changed this somewhat, for theatrical distribution you'll want as much resolution as you can get. Let's also not forget frame rates, the 7D offers 720p 60p and the Scarlet offers 3K 120fps, big difference. You'll also have to factor in lens choices and working with still lenses versus cinema lenses. Now, having worked with my Nikon D90, I'm pretty sure a lot of people can get by just fine with still lenses, although a follow focus makes all of the difference in the world.

I agree that a 2/3" Scarlet is kind of hurting right now. I never really liked the idea of a 2/3" Scarlet, it just complicates things when it comes to lenses. I think RED should focus on S35 as their minimum sensor size and go with it. Yeah sure it might eat into RED One sales for high speed work but if they were going to hold that back then they need to offer more than 120fps. Their top Epic needs to be a 9K+ Phantom-like camera or at least offer the same frame rate capabilities. Separating S35 from FF35 is cool, but don't take away basic frame rates like that, if anything give the more expensive FF35 models more frame rates and/or even more resolution, thus having more incentive to go for the FF35 rather than the S35. They need to take some kind of different approach right now because the competition really is going to start heating up. I don't think the 7D is going to be the camera to actually compete against Scarlet but there's already people popping up and saying their opting for the 7D instead of a Scarlet and that has to be troubling to RED on some standpoint.
 
by DEFINITION the scarlet could be considered Vaporware. But as I am sure you know just saying that is bound to start a flamewar.:kali:

Truthfully it does not really matter to me. There are no Scarlets but there are 7D's and at their price point, paying for a Scarlet may not be too big of a problem for those that could afford it anyway.

how $3000 5D footage can be cut with the $25,000 RED ONE footage blows my mind. Not saying the 5D is better, which it's not IMO, but I would assume that RED has taken notice. And If the $1800 7D can be cut with the Scarlet that I'm assuming would be double the price at least, I could see the Scarlet taking a hit.
 
I think an S35 1080p cam is good enough for me. But I want one that I could downcovert from a much bigger size....where I have control on how it's downgraded. That's why a Sacrtlet would be perfect. Oversampling is where it's at. I don't want to necessarily leave that up to the camera to do.
 
BIG HUGS FOR EVERYONE!!!
Let's just play it by ear, we are entering a golden age of vdeography. Exciting and inspiring products are on the horizon and Youtube is about to get a huge bump in quality :)
 
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