C300: Camera upgrade

James0b57 said:
... But comparing to a BMP6K or Kinifinity Mavo LF, it takes a more discerning eye to care about things like CMOS smear and RS enough to jump for a Komodo.
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But it's not evern the discerning eye of the filmmakers/content creators but the eye of those viewing the said content.

I picked up the point from the ongoing audio discussion - the public is fine with the video quality, 4K is already retina level and the fact that the wheels are spinning backwards while the car is moving forward is something people got used to over the years. Besides, higher frame rate capabilities on even the consumer level make the difference between RS and GS negligible even when you're looking for it.

This doesn't mean Red won't sell any Komodo pieces. They have a substantial and very loyal fan/owner base built in but it's just a tough road for them because, whereas they used to lead on specs, they ain't leading anymore. And the camera world is entering a commodity territory anyway. 6K, 8K, 12K - it all looks the same to me.
 
DLD said:
But it's not evern the discerning eye of the filmmakers/content creators but the eye of those viewing the said content.

I picked up the point from the ongoing audio discussion - the public is fine with the video quality, 4K is already retina level and the fact that the wheels are spinning backwards while the car is moving forward is something people got used to over the years. Besides, higher frame rate capabilities on even the consumer level make the difference between RS and GS negligible even when you're looking for it.

This doesn't mean Red won't sell any Komodo pieces. They have a substantial and very loyal fan/owner base built in but it's just a tough road for them because, whereas they used to lead on specs, they ain't leading anymore. And the camera world is entering a commodity territory anyway. 6K, 8K, 12K - it all looks the same to me.
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If you are arguing that based on the current climate, it looks like RED is on the downward slope, I agree.


I was discussing with NorBro about whether a Komodo can fill a niche in higher end action cam work. I think it does, even in 2020. However, I don't think RED is going to bring in sales numbers big enough to turn the tides. The fact that RED is pushing the Komodo and Ranger bodies to the general public as much as they are is just a sign that they are in decline, imho. But who knows what all the raw patents do for RED, and whatever else they are doing. Might be enough to float them through another couple iterations before they have to red entirely on their quality and workflow solutions. Canikony just sort of caught up in 2020, yet they are still marginally behind in base image quality. So, if RED improves they DSMC3 line enough, they'll live a little while longer as a justifiably premium brand without having to do all that much. We'll see if RED has used all those profits on improving, but more than likely they are just going to repackage the minimum at the highest cost the market will bare. The CMOS improvements on the Komodo, best in class wifi monitoring, GS dynamic range, and improved boot times is encouraging, but it is still doesn't indicate that RED can beat Arri or Venice for image quality, at the end of the day.


To me, A7s3, C70, BMP6K, and a couple others have good enough image quality, that if I were buying, I might skip RED. However, renting, Red's are about as good a value for the average person as one can get. Unless you live in a place like LA or NYC and have friends with Alexa Classics, Renting a RED is the cheapest way to get some of the best IQ. I see RED's renting on Sharegrid for the same cost of C300mkii and Fs7's. And if filming a short film, or music video etc, on a budget, sometimes might be worth avoiding an Arri or Venice to save a few bones. IMHO. At the higher end of things, ymmv. I know enough legitimate shooters that prefer RED over Arri, to know there is no point in writing off RED today. Because in the current climate, RED cameras are still actually better in some regards than anything else out there.
 
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stupla said:
Hi,

I tend to make documentary and corporate films. I'm currently using a Canon C300 (mark 1), a Canon 1DC and Fuji XT3. I like the images that come out them all - even though the Canon's are quite old now.

I'm needing to upgrade my Canon C300. I love the specs of the Canon C300 mark iii but simply can't afford it. I quite tempted by the Canon C70. Seems like almost everything I need in a camera and, with the sensor seemingly the same as the Mark iii, the image looks very similar to it?

I shoot a lot in lowlight so that's important to me and also being a one man band, autofocus would be a huge advantage. I use it a lot of the XT3, as a B cam (and sometime as an A cam on some shoots) and it does make things so much easier.

I do love the look of my XT3 too, and was contemplating going further into Fuji by getting the XT4 (or the new Sony A7S iii for lowlight and autofocus) as it would downscale my camera bag, maybe. I do take some photos too so having that option is quite good.

But a camera that I can just pick up, with ND filters and XLRa (albeit miniXLRs) is appealing for my "run and gun" kind of work.

I wonder if anyone has any experience or thoughts on the Canon C70. I know it's not out yet and I've searched here for opinions about it but couldn't find any. Sorry if I've totally missed along streams and posts about it.

I always find this forum hugely helpful and thanks in advance for any comments/advice.
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To bring this back round to OT. Given the OP's thoughts on camera needs, the Komodo seems like an awful choice.


(I had made a comment earlier, which I have deleted now, that if the OP's main concern was a cinematic image, then there might be reason to choose a Komodo over other choices. However, once I read the OP's comments, it is pretty obvious that the Komodo is not necessary, and even likely a bad choice. But all of these camera are good enough, that if someone wants to use a camera, it doesn't matter, they can make it work. )

EDIT, and i should add that NorBro and Pure have already provided the OP with a out the best advice one can get.
 
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rob norton said:
$2500 USD - I need to move to Atlanta. That's vastly higher than a c300ii owner/op here.

This isn't to say your prices aren't completely justified (I know you're providing a huge amount of gear too), it's just interesting hearing different rates in various markets.
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Atlanta has been great for the last decade. Everyone i know that moved their during the movie boom did really well.
 
IMO, if Canon comes out with an 8K camera - something with the R5 brains with more codecs, physical buttons and no fake heat limitations - for about $15,000, that it will just squeeze the entire high end market into that level. People will even start doubting LF's, "It may be better but I don't want to pay the rate".

As to the cartel - Fuji just announced that they will upgrade their medium format GFX-100 via firmware for a 400 MPX pixel shifting image off its original 102. Of course, since the camera body/brain is the same and Sony's 102 MPX medium format sensor has been doing pixel shifting for other brands, the "update" should have come with the camera upon the release. But since Sony was obligated to protect its other medium format customers, Hasselblad and Phase One, whose cameras have the same sensor, they had to wait until their non-compete agreement had expired. Which is what I predicted a year and a half ago when the GFX-100 was announced.

But wait - there's more!

The 4x resolution requires 16 shots, as is the case on A-7RIV, which makes the Ultra High Res pretty much unusable for portrait photography. A 2x res requires only four shots and should have been good for portraits too. Now, Panasonic S1R has a motion blur smoothing off the same eight shots, which makes it a portrait camera. And it had that feature since day one. But, on the other hand, it has 47 MPX pixel shift into 188, not 102 into 400.

In a competitive market, they'd all have 2x off four, 2.5 off six and, if that's the best they can do, 4x off sixteen shots.

On the third hand, who'd want a 400 MPX frame? (aside of the architecture, food, art photography)
 
The entire high end market would only be squeezed into that level (not a lot but would be some) only if the camera was really something special and had a lot of traction and exposure.

If a few big names shot a few big movies with one then the gears start turning...the snowball starts rolling down the hill.

Like the VENICE which is the only Japanese camera I have seen Hollywood care about on a very high level that wasn't made by ARRI or RED...and it still isn't doing that much squeezing.

[I know Varicam had some limelight but I'm talking Tom Cruise Top Gun and Will Smith Bad Boys limelight.]
 
NorBro said:
The entire high end market would only be squeezed into that level (not a lot but would be some) only if the camera was really something special and had a lot of traction and exposure.

If a few big names shot a few big movies with one then the gears start turning...the snowball starts rolling down the hill.

Like the VENICE which is the only Japanese camera I have seen Hollywood care about on a very high level that wasn't made by ARRI or RED...and it still isn't doing that much squeezing.

[I know Varicam had some limelight but I'm talking Tom Cruise Top Gun and Will Smith Bad Boys limelight.]
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And even then, Sony bought their way onto those films. Isn’t Bad Boys a sony picture?

And Claudio Miranda shot Top Gun on Venice, but he also shot Tomorrowland and Oblivion (another Tom Cruise film) on the Sony F65.

Still, it is a good camera. I still see more Reds, but the Venice definitely carries more clout than a Red these days.
 
What will probably happen with cameras is that Apple will demand that some of their shows are shot on an iPhone. (Not ARRI, not ARRI, iPhone). Soderbergh already shot a project couple of years ago on an iPhone8. Those on the streamer will be big budget and will look great and that will move the ice.
 
DLD said:
What will probably happen with cameras is that Apple will demand that some of their shows are shot on an iPhone. (Not ARRI, not ARRI, iPhone). Soderbergh already shot a project couple of years ago on an iPhone8. Those on the streamer will be big budget and will look great and that will move the ice.
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Definitely
 
Clermond said:
after all the first videos shot on the FX6 I am very happy to have my Canon cameras.
Specs of the FX6 sound nice but the image I saw so far seems to need some work not to look like a Sony.
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I still feel that way about the Sony Venice.
 
Just for perspective, I was a C300M2 owner for over 3 years. Before that I had C500 w/Odyssey 7Q combos (worst purchase ever- fan noise).

Been shooting with the FX9 since NYC production reopened. Nice image- but I prefer full frame over S35.
FX6 should be really popular out here.

C70 seems to make a ton of sense for what it looks to be designed for: a step up from mirrorless cameras. A step up from the C300M2 for that matter- for a OMB operator, not a full crew camera. Camera bag (if you use one) remains small. Seems ideal for OMB and RnG.

I have an XT4- even used it a little on a Food Network show I shot. But mirrorless cameras are a PITA with crewed shoots. (have to monitor everything for clients- why many of us need SDI outputs)

As always, try renting different cameras and use them on shoots. Or rent and simply test extensively (Sharegrid, LensRentals, etc) I rented C200s for small shoots during the pandemic shutdown. Easier to use C200 on micro crew style shoots than C300M2 I thought. A C200 is easier to use on set than the XT4- or any mirrorless camera, but that's just my opinion.

Haven't replaced the C300M2 yet- but did buy a bunch of new LED lights (Orbiter actually looks super useful with attachments)

Don't know how everyone's market stands right now, but I'm very worried about another production shutdown here in the NYC market (shoots with over 10 people involved). So continuing to rent- actually, producers do the renting, and holding off buying new cameras. But when production stabilizes, the FX6, on paper, looks better than FX9 for mid tier clients. Fits my workflow better. Also a number of clients use FS7M2, so FX6 is an easy sell. As Eric says, owning a camera is a business decision- for making money. For what I do, the lighting creates the look, not the camera. On cameras- whatever fits the budget- I think they all look good these days. I prefer large format, FF.

BUT, if you don't need SDI outputs and if you are a true OMB, C70 looks great.
 
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