C300: Camera upgrade

[NorBro]

Well, they have changed because SD cameras used to cost $75,000. lol

And I said 1%, which include ARRI and RED.

As far as the others, this was the last batch...I'll bookmark this thread and come back in 2-3 years if a C300 Mark IV and/or a C500 Mark III are over $10,000.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

It's interesting to bring inflation into the mix. An Arri Alexa I believe was $80k back in 2009, and using a quick inflation calculator online, $80k back then would be worth $98,617.52 now. Meanwhile, the current model, the Alexa SXT Plus I see going for $75k on AbelCine. So on first look, it appears just $5k cheaper, but once you account for inflation, it's about $20k cheaper.

 

[NorBro]

It's not inflation; it's deprecation. Technology value isn't the same as it was 10-20-30 years ago.

ARRI is a monopoly so their business model hasn't changed (why would it) even if the bodies are a little cheaper (licenses are still available).

If they were ever seriously challenged by Apple or Google/Alphabet, you'd see bigger changes overnight.

 

[Guest]

It's not inflation; it's deprecation. Technology value isn't the same as it was 10-20-30 years ago.

ARRI is a monopoly so their business model hasn't changed (why would it) even if the bodies are a little cheaper (licenses are still available).

If they were ever seriously challenged by Apple or Google/Alphabet, you'd see bigger changes overnight.

Yeah, a monopoly on actually being good.

 

[Guest]

It's interesting to bring inflation into the mix. An Arri Alexa I believe was $80k back in 2009, and using a quick inflation calculator online, $80k back then would be worth $98,617.52 now. Meanwhile, the current model, the Alexa SXT Plus I see going for $75k on AbelCine. So on first look, it appears just $5k cheaper, but once you account for inflation, it's about $20k cheaper.

That is Arri, just looking out for the little guys like us.

 

[Guest]

But the days of cameras being over $10,000 for anything but the 1% are over. (And soon $5,000.)

Camera's needing to be over $10,000 for a healthier codec have been a semi artificial limit for well over a decade. In particular the last 5 years.

However, there is always a market for the super high end. So, no reason to say that a camera can't cost a million dollars. Yes, sure, maybe it will be ruby and emerald microscopically making the bayer filter. But if Leica, gasoline cars, and Violins have shown us anything, it is that value is in the eye of the beholder.

But yeah, I feel like if all of us at DVX decided to, we could make a camera that shoots raw for relatively cheap. doesn't mean it would have amazing colour science or be reliable, or even marketable, but we could do it. So, predicting th ultimate decline of camera prices is a bit of a misnomer. Vast majority of cameras are and will continue to get cheaper to a point. But the numbers being produce for the pro and high end markets are just too small to ever justify really talented and smart people to put energy into custom or small batch cameras. if that makes sense?

I mean PC's never got that much cheaper. I mean, back in the MiniDV days, I could get a machine that could chew threw miniDV footage like butter and it cost me maybe $1K? Now, It feels like I spend more, between the GFX cards and hard drives. We get cheaper, but the scale is always sliding.

 

[NorBro]

My first computer was a toaster for $6,000 in 1995. An iPad can hack countries, ha.

At the end of the day, considering there are 5 cinema camera bodies currently available [brand new] between $10K-$20K (Dragon-X, Gemini, C300 Mark III, C500 Mark II, and FX9), it's not even worth talking about. (The LT and UMP 12K are both $9,999/5 so consider that as you may.)

The cinema market is an odd creature; the best-of-the-best use the same 3 cameras/model variations, the "I'm buying a camera over $10K for independent work" group has only 3-4 choices, and then there is everyone else below $10K.

 

[DLD]

An average PC cost about $1,500 twenty years ago and about $700 now. With the inflation, it's ~ $2,500 vs. $700. And the $700 PC in 2020 is way better than a $1,500 PC in 2000.

The digital camera business is also part of the electronics biz, much like smart phones, but is isolated from the purely technological progress. Had Samsung and Kodak stayed in it, it'd have been very different. In the very top end, ARRI is dominating because it still delivers the best performance in the area where a grand a day rental fee is peanuts compared to the overall production costs. But the low-to-medium market exploded into tens of thousands units sold for the YouTubers, corporate/interviews, local commercial/advertising, legal, wedding/bar mitzvah, etc. And given that the amount of footage produced for YouTube alone dwarfs Hollywood film/TV production, gear sold for that market dwarfs the amount of gear sold for Hollywood too.

 

[Guest]

random thought of the day, I am appreciating that SSD's are as small as miniDV tapes these days.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

random thought of the day, I am appreciating that SSD's are as small as miniDV tapes these days.

And once they start selling them for $4 a piece we'll no longer have to format and re-use cards/drives like how we often did not re-use tapes in the MiniDV days.

 

[Guest]

My first computer was a toaster for $6,000 in 1995. An iPad can hack countries, ha.

At the end of the day, considering there are 5 cinema camera bodies currently available [brand new] between $10K-$20K (Dragon-X, Gemini, C300 Mark III, C500 Mark II, and FX9), it's not even worth talking about. (The LT and UMP 12K are both $9,999/5 so consider that as you may.)

The cinema market is an odd creature; the best-of-the-best use the same 3 cameras/model variations, the "I'm buying a camera over $10K for independent work" group has only 3-4 choices, and then there is everyone else below $10K.

the days of needing to pay red prices to get red quality are over. red's garage style camera building may be over in some ways. we'll see what they did with their money over the years.

there was certainly a time when charging USD$2000 for a $100 SSD in a $15 enclosure made sense, as it was a cameras system people were getting, but now with how close in performance the As7III, BMP6K, C70, and R5 are to the Komodo, it is more about pros and cons, than which one is better or best.

At this point, I might rather shoot on an iPhone 12 than a GH2.

All of the low hanging fruit sort of designs have been exploited and now everyone, even on the low end is catching up. For RED, that means they now might have to do more than repackage, but at the same time, there are probably more companies than ever producing interesting takes on imaging technology, that RED may still do another round of of the shelf tech. Just this time, it may not offer quite as much value to the end users, as previous cameras did. if RED is sloppy with the DSMC3 release, and more companies get raw-lite work arounds (which actually seem to improve on production over true raw video), we could see a shift at the higher end and the beginning of the end for RED. They just don't ever seem to finish their cameras. The perpetual beta till a replacement beta comes along is frustrating. Red should have been called Beta-cams. To bad Sony took that one a little too early.

 

[Guest]

And once they start selling them for $4 a piece we'll no longer have to format and re-use cards/drives like how we often did not re-use tapes in the MiniDV days.

Haha, that would be good for the pocket and bad for the planet.

At least they are cheap enough that I am not too worried about their read/write cycles running out.

 

[NorBro]

the days of needing to pay red prices to get red quality are over. red's garage style camera building may be over in some ways. we'll see what they did with their money over the years.

there was certainly a time when charging USD$2000 for a $100 SSD in a $15 enclosure made sense, as it was a cameras system people were getting, but now with how close in performance the As7III, BMP6K, C70, and R5 are to the Komodo, it is more about pros and cons, than which one is better or best.

At this point, I might rather shoot on an iPhone 12 than a GH2.

All of the low hanging fruit sort of designs have been exploited and now everyone, even on the low end is catching up. For RED, that means they now might have to do more than repackage, but at the same time, there are probably more companies than ever producing interesting takes on imaging technology, that RED may still do another round of of the shelf tech. Just this time, it may not offer quite as much value to the end users, as previous cameras did. if RED is sloppy with the DSMC3 release, and more companies get raw-lite work arounds (which actually seem to improve on production over true raw video), we could see a shift at the higher end and the beginning of the end for RED. They just don't ever seem to finish their cameras. The perpetual beta till a replacement beta comes along is frustrating. Red should have been called Beta-cams. To bad Sony took that one a little too early.

DLD once mentioned like 3-4 years ago RED might have a tough time surviving in the future, which I completely didn't think much of then but see it more than ever now.

 

[rob norton]

And just to clarify what I meant by "rentals," since I don't do dry hire rentals I meant that as in when I'm DPing, and I'm bringing my kit, and the $600 per job is what I charge for the C300 Mark II portion of my overall rate (so say I'm charging $2500 all-in, and $600 is for the C300 Mark II).

$2500 USD - I need to move to Atlanta. That's vastly higher than a c300ii owner/op here.

This isn't to say your prices aren't completely justified (I know you're providing a huge amount of gear too), it's just interesting hearing different rates in various markets.

 

[Guest]

DLD once mentioned like 3-4 years ago RED might have a tough time surviving in the future, which I completely didn't think much of then but see it more than ever now.

I've always seen it. I actually expected Canikony to catch up quicker, but maybe they saw it too, and that allowed them to go about their day uninterrupted by Jannard. Also kind of the reason I feel Jannard left, more than anything. Was the idea that maaaaybe Land would bring a more camera operators focus to the company that I thought things might improve a little, but we'll see. The Komodo is encouraging, but Canikony, as slow as they were to get there are right there now. But Red and BM still have a chance if they improve ergonomics and workflow over the Cabal. So many of the camera bodies and workflows coming from Japanese companies feel like a cross between Marketers and Engineers, with little it of focus group style int from real world professional camera people. Then over time they have slowly improved each iteration, but still a little behind the ball.

does any of that makes sense? idk, I am rambling about.

 

[DLD]

DLD once mentioned like 3-4 years ago RED might have a tough time surviving in the future, which I completely didn't think much of then but see it more than ever now.

When I first got into the consumer retail in the mid-80's, a 4-head HiFi VHS were sold for $800 (which would be around $2,000 in today's money). And top brand were NEC, RCA, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Sony, Sanyo. Not many of those are left standing.

As to Red, they filled a niche that was voided by the Japanese and the Germans by providing product above the consumer but below the ultra high end. Additionally, the Reds small size made them suitable for gimbals and their resolution gave them a temporary edge in the Netflix camera preference. Nowadays, they get pushed out of the Netflix 4K domain by the LF's and from the portable/light niche by the Mini's.

And the explosion in the YouTube channels is going toward the Pocket 4K/6K, Sony A7SII/III, Canon R5/6, C200, C300 MKII/III. It makes a lot of sense for Red to try to get on that gravy train with Komodo but I am not sure it provides the best value in an area where a decent compressed codec and AF carry the day. And an incoming flood of the LiDAR based focus helpers seem to be more suited toward the budget friendly EZ Cams and BMD lineups.

And, with that, reasons for paying Red prices are getting fewer and further in between.

PS. Of the latest cinema style releases, C300 MKIII footage looks very good (much better than 1D XIII, for example). And that doesn't just cover most of the sub-$20,000 market, its image quality is good enough for almost anything that needs to be recorded. And that we knew too. 4K was a big step from 2K but 8K is a surplus to requirements unless you're filming something like the Olympics. And much like with the PC's and automobiles, middle class is becoming good enough for almost everyone.

PPS. Hyundai and Kia are about to release a 2.5L turbocharged Sonata/K5 with 290hp. In the 1980's, Rolls Royce Silver Spur had only 227hp and, until recently, anything above 200hp was deemed luxury class. Sure, BMW 5-series, Mercedes Benz E-class, Audi 6-series are better but they also run $25,000-$40,000 more. Add a quality magnetic suspension and differences become minute. And the luxury carmakers might have some bleak days ahead.

 

[Guest]

And the explosion in the YouTube channels is going toward the Pocket 4K/6K, Sony A7SII/III, Canon R5/6, C200, C300 MKII/III. It makes a lot of sense for Red to try to get on that gravy train with Komodo but I am not sure it provides the best value in an area where a decent compressed codec and AF carry the day. And an incoming flood of the LiDAR based focus helpers seem to be more suited toward the budget friendly EZ Cams and BMD lineups.

While I see that RED is aware how people will use the Komodo in the lower tier markets, I actually believe that the Komodo was designed and developed as an action camera to replace GoPros and 5D's on bigger films.

And I see little reason why sloggers and content creators would have much need for a Komodo. Owner ops and film makers on the other hand, the Komodo makes a lot of sense. I suppose if someone if coming from a Canon R, or anything budget friendly that was announced pre 2019, they might be impressed with the Komodo. But comparing to a BMP6K or Kinifinity Mavo LF, it takes a more discerning eye to care about things like CMOS smear and RS enough to jump for a Komodo.

 

[NorBro]

Even if Komodo was 100% made as an action camera, my question is who is it for really?

Meaning...Hollywood blockbusters were fine without it for the last 20 years so why now?

And does it really matter?

Does anyone care how a global shutter looks for .5-1 second during chases, fights, etc.

And the cameras were already small, so size and weight is negligible, IMO.

To me, this is a business/product experiment; see how the market reacts to a new, inexpensive system in a different time (I always say that but it's really true; businesses always evaluate everything every quarter).

 

[Guest]

Even if Komodo was 100% made as an action camera, my question is who is it for really?

Meaning...Hollywood blockbusters were fine without it for the last 20 years so why now?

And does it really matter?

Does anyone care how a global shutter looks for .5-1 second during chases, fights, etc.

And the cameras were already small, so size and weight is negligible, IMO.

To me, this is a business/product experiment; see how the market reacts to a new, inexpensive system in a different time (I always say that but it's really true; businesses always evaluate everything every quarter).

Given the early implementation of the Komodo in the Matrix 4 film, and just the way that Michael Bay shoots, I can see it being design with those people in mind first, and then offered to the public as a big bonus to extra sales numbers for RED. I don't see RED as quite the big corporation that they make "feeler" products. I think they knew from the beginning that they could sell the action cam to a whole swath of rabid and reluctant RED fans alike.

Was watching a talk about the filming of Mad Max recently, and when they were shooting that film, the 5Dmk3 was still one of the best options for action cam work. They had a bunch of those on the film. Even paid a lot to remove the banding in the sky in post. (the black magic's came on to the film later on they said). They did struggle a little with jello, unknown to what degree it effected the edit. Considering film productions and rental houses can probably get Komodo's at reduced prices, then why not use Komodo's? Also, Frank Miller used very little high speed shots in Mad Max Fury Road. They did shoot some over crank, but Miller supposedly said he wasn't using it in the edit. And even then, they were over cranked to 50fps on the Alexa's, because 60fps they were dropping frames. (the more icon high frame rate stuff in the film was shot on Alexas and Phantoms, but it is obvious, that when a small camera like an A7s can shoot 1000fps, then yeah, those things will become the new standard for action cams, in particular the slomo stuff, but a lot of "action cams" used in films are just cameras that are either in the way of danger or need to be able to be hidden in the A cam shot and provide additional coverage, or be lightweight and compact enough for special uses)

I watched the whole film a few times and never noticed the 5D footage, though might be able to find it if I were looking for it on a Blu-ray. But streaming on the web might be more difficult. But they had to do a lot of post work on that. Meaning, it might have been cheaper for production to use the Komodo's.


Pain n Gain was the big push for Red to make their own action cam. I think Pain n Gain suffered a little from the GoPro and 7D shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEQ8jyvmYtw

 

[Guest]

^all that to say, yeah, I think even in 2020, there is a need for a high end image for a 48fps global shutter action camera. costing around $6K. I don't think it was designed as a feeler camera for the lower end market, and then labelled as an action camera to justify its limitations.

I could be wrong, but given how long it takes to get a camera to market and how small of an operation RED is, the more simple straight forward answer makes more sense: it's an action cam, because it is an action cam. Just like the 5D3 was a dslr, because it was a DSLR.