Camera rumors for 2016?

They have delivered the Mini with their V2 4K sensor. I think it has the lowest reviews of pretty much any camera I have seen on B&H. Ever. This won't deter everyone but their poor rep is preceding them.

PS. I actually like the 4.6 image quality quite a bit but, to my eyes, A7RII with an external recorder looks fine as well. And, should Sony decide to really decapitate the market, it can easily release an A7SII and/or an A7RII based camcorder, which would add the 10-bit color depth and a higher bit rate codec for around $5,000. (plus the auto-focus from A6300) And that will be both the knockdown and the knockout punch for BMD.
 
Quite honestly(for me at least) any camera announced from this point on with specs less than 10bit, 4K, 4:2:2, 60p IN CAMERA, I have no interest in.
 
DLD said:
They have delivered the Mini with their V2 4K sensor. I think it has the lowest reviews of pretty much any camera I have seen on B&H. Ever. This won't deter everyone but their poor rep is preceding them.

PS. I actually like the 4.6 image quality quite a bit but, to my eyes, A7RII with an external recorder looks fine as well. And, should Sony decide to really decapitate the market, it can easily release an A7SII and/or an A7RII based camcorder, which would add the 10-bit color depth and a higher bit rate codec for around $5,000. (plus the auto-focus from A6300) And that will be both the knockdown and the knockout punch for BMD.
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No. 99% of the people that buy BM cameras love the color science. Completely different looks no matter if the same specs are offered.
 
boo said:
Quite honestly(for me at least) any camera announced from this point on with specs less than 10bit, 4K, 4:2:2, 60p IN CAMERA, I have no interest in.
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I pretty much agree with this. However, if a camera comes out that shoots something like 6K (rumors of a GH5 peg it at 6K) even if it's 8-bit 4:2:0, I might be interested because downscaling the image to 4K would produce better color sampling.

But, yes, in an ideal world it would be 10-bit 4:2:2 4K at 60p in camera. For less than $2000.
 
boo said:
Quite honestly(for me at least) any camera announced from this point on with specs less than 10bit, 4K, 4:2:2, 60p IN CAMERA, I have no interest in.
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People (myself included) have been clamoring for 10-bit 4:2:2 and 60p for years, frequently arguing that the specs were eminently feasible so manfacturers should include them in their low-end offerings. Never happened with HD. Will it happen with 4K? So far, they seem reluctant. Maybe if HDR becomes more pervasive, they'll relent. But it sure does look like they want those specs to be considered premium, professional features. Only BMD offers them on all its cameras, but its gear is professional.
 
DLD said:
They have delivered the Mini with their V2 4K sensor. I think it has the lowest reviews of pretty much any camera I have seen on B&H. Ever. This won't deter everyone but their poor rep is preceding them.

PS. I actually like the 4.6 image quality quite a bit but, to my eyes, A7RII with an external recorder looks fine as well. And, should Sony decide to really decapitate the market, it can easily release an A7SII and/or an A7RII based camcorder, which would add the 10-bit color depth and a higher bit rate codec for around $5,000. (plus the auto-focus from A6300) And that will be both the knockdown and the knockout punch for BMD.
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OK we obviously see things very differently if you think the a7r2 image is similar quality to the Urban 4.6k. The Sony colours just don't look right to me, and as you suggest - it needs an external recorder to get the best from its 8 bits, and to stop it overheating....
Different cameras for different purposes - which is why your assertion that Sony will make BM cameras irrelevant is just ludicrous. There is room for both... BM cameras aren't aimed at the run n gun user, or the can't be arsed to use lights brigade - they are cinema cameras which when used correctly create an image way above its price range. That will always make them relevant to many people
 
When people list all the awesome stuff about the Ursa Mini 4.6K, I'm always tempted to add "it doesn't exist" at the end.
Don't get me wrong, I do shoot with a Blackmagic from time to time, and I love the image. But out of all the cameras they sell today, the best one FOR ME is the pocket. If a lot of people think this (I don't know if that's the case or not) it should worry them.
 
Samuel H said:
When people list all the awesome stuff about the Ursa Mini 4.6K, I'm always tempted to add "it doesn't exist" at the end.
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What's more than a little troubling is that NAB is about a month away, when it's possible BMD will announce a slate of new cameras, despite the fact that it hasn't released some of the ones -- particularly its star camera, the Ursa Mini 4.6K -- it announced last year. Any new camera announcements should be regarded solely as future-tech concepts, not real products, unless more realistic release dates are given.
 
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Tzedekh said:
Will it happen with 4K? So far, they seem reluctant.
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Panasonic have to give me a reason to upgrade from the GH4, otherwise my next upgrade will likely be a Sony camera.

- I don't need or want 6K. ( very happy with 4K )

- 4K 60p would be nice, but it's something that I could live without.

- 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 internal would greatly improve the look of V-log footage, and is about the only thing that would get me to go for a GH5
 
I guess I still find it strange that camera makers seem to refuse to offer 10-bit 4:2:2 on some of their lower end offerings. There is so much that goes into making a pro camera, adding that won't stop people from buying their more expensive cameras. I mean we're still talking about a heavily compressed format even with that added.

Tzedekh said:
What's more than a little troubling is that NAB is about a month away, when it's possible BMD will announce a slate of new cameras, despite the fact that it hasn't released some of the ones -- particularly its star camera, the Ursa Mini 4.6K -- it announced last year. Any new camera announcements should be regarded solely as future-tech concepts, not real products, unless more realistic release dates are given.
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I don't think BM would have the gall to announce new cameras at NAB this year. Unless they start shipping everything they announced last year.
I have a feeling they'll focus on other product lines and maybe announce they are shipping last year's batch of cameras.
 
TheDingo said:
Panasonic have to give me a reason to upgrade from the GH4, otherwise my next upgrade will likely be a Sony camera.
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Nothing could ever make me want to buy a Sony camera (except perhaps the F35).

Whenever I see Sony footage, my reaction is the visual equivalent of hearing chalk screech on a blackboard. Perhaps not quite as visceral, but similar in unpleasantness.

Apologies to all Sony fans. It's purely physical and beyond my control. :)
 
Samuel H said:
When people list all the awesome stuff about the Ursa Mini 4.6K, I'm always tempted to add "it doesn't exist" at the end.
Don't get me wrong, I do shoot with a Blackmagic from time to time, and I love the image. But out of all the cameras they sell today, the best one FOR ME is the pocket. If a lot of people think this (I don't know if that's the case or not) it should worry them.
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Oh come on you hold court here on every camera that gets announced that you're excited about and that doesn't exist espousing all the benefits of this and that and we'll have to wait for what will rolling shutter be like etc etc etc. Don't single out the listing of the attributes of Blackmagic cameras when you do it all the time for other cameras. Theres enough BM cameras in the wild to make a preliminary judgement.
 
ade4all said:
... Different cameras for different purposes - which is why your assertion that Sony will make BM cameras irrelevant is just ludicrous. There is room for both... BM cameras aren't aimed at the run n gun user, or the can't be arsed to use lights brigade - they are cinema cameras which when used correctly create an image way above its price range. That will always make them relevant to many people ...
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Here's the reiteration of my point (so it doesn't get diffused like a single source lighting). At this point - let's make a giant leap for the cinema mankind and assume that 4.6 Mini will soon be shipping defect-free units - their models are becoming one of many cameras capable of 4K video in roughly the same price range. In the past, what made the CC such a hot buy and what led BMD into the camera manufacturing industry to begin with was the awareness that the photo-video industry at large was not producing cameras with high resolution in a budget price range. Back three years ago, even F5 wasn't recording 4K internally and it and C500 were the cheapest 4K units at about $30,000 ready to shoot. That made the CC stand alone in its niche without any competition. It had plenty of quirks but those could be dealt with with proper accessories and the total was still far, far below anything, as other cameras were selling for thousands, if not tens of thousands, more. That's what made people wait and celebrate the arrival of the 2.5K CC, with its Raw/ProRes option, etc. That was a disrupting "game changer".

But, once again, this was the end of 2012/ beginning of 2013.

Let's look at the market now, as it's approaching the NAB'16. There are 4K cameras galore, from smartphones to P&S to MFT to APS-C to full frame (and, if you're Chivas Lubezki, to the medium format). Compared to BMD, there are cheaper cameras and there are more expensive cameras. What's worse for the Aussies, is that there plenty of cameras vying for the same niche as they are and they come from the dominant figures in this industry, figures that have familiar brand names, wide network of retailers and long established technical support. And plenty of people that had very little choice three years ago - their primary choice was then to argue that 4K didn't matter and than they were perfectly happy to live in the 1080p world - now have multiple choices (including, let us not forget, the second hand market for models that were once top of the line).

And, so why would anyone buy anything from BMD now? As everyone asserts, it's its "look". But there are also people who happen to like the F35 "look". Others still like the 1D C "look". Even if one stipulates that no one ever in history liked the Sony "look" or the Panasonic "look", this notion hasn't prevented GH4, A7SII/RII, FS5, FS7 from flying off the shelves. And, guess what? People have learned how to wring more than a decent image out of GH4, FS7, A7RII and so on. They may still like BMD "look" but they no longer need the BMD "look". They have other cameras already. They have other rigs already. They have other workflows already. And, if they're in a market for the B-Cam or an A-cam replacement, they'll go to the same well. And this mass represents hundreds of thousands of shooters.

Naturally, BMD will have its fans but, to stay in this industry, BMD also needs to appeal to the masses, the masses that have largely moved onto to other brand names. And competition isn't exactly letting up either. At some point, Canon and Nikon will begin delivering the 4K DSLR's. Sony will bring out its large body high end units. Panasonic will update. Even Red is dipping its toes into an affordable, if not quite entry level, market. And lots of people love the Red "look". That is why I said that BMD has nowhere to go. It's surrounded by competition and its loyalists alone will not be enough to keep it afloat.
 
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stoneinapond said:
Nothing could ever make me want to buy a Sony camera (except perhaps the F35)
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I've seen great and terrible work made with all of the major camera brands, so I can't say that there's a "Sony Look" that would put me off buying a Sony camera. It all comes down to how you use the gear, not the gear itself.
 
mico said:
Oh come on you hold court here on every camera that gets announced that you're excited about and that doesn't exist espousing all the benefits of this and that and we'll have to wait for what will rolling shutter be like etc etc etc. Don't single out the listing of the attributes of Blackmagic cameras when you do it all the time for other cameras. Theres enough BM cameras in the wild to make a preliminary judgement.
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I apply "if you can't buy it then it doesn't matter so much" to every camera that is announced but not released yet. Like the a6300 right now. It's just that BM falls there more than others.
 
DLD said:
Here's the reiteration of my point (so it doesn't get diffused like a single source lighting). At this point - let's make a giant leap for the cinema mankind and assume that 4.6 Mini will soon be shipping defect-free units - their models are becoming one of many cameras capable of 4K video in roughly the same price range. In the past, what made the CC such a hot buy and what led BMD into the camera manufacturing industry to begin with was the awareness that the photo-video industry at large was not producing cameras with high resolution in a budget price range. Back three years ago, even F5 wasn't recording 4K internally and it and C500 were the cheapest 4K units at about $30,000 ready to shoot. That made the CC stand alone in its niche without any competition. It had plenty of quirks but those could be dealt with with proper accessories and the total was still far, far below anything, as other cameras were selling for thousands, if not tens of thousands, more. That's what made people wait and celebrate the arrival of the 2.5K CC, with its Raw/ProRes option, etc. That was a disrupting "game changer".

But, once again, this was the end of 2012/ beginning of 2013.

Let's look at the market now, as it's approaching the NAB'16. There are 4K cameras galore, from smartphones to P&S to MFT to APS-C to full frame (and, if you're Chivas Lubezki, to the medium format). Compared to BMD, there are cheaper cameras and there are more expensive cameras. What's worse for the Aussies, is that there plenty of cameras vying for the same niche as they are and they come from the dominant figures in this industry, figures that have familiar brand names, wide network of retailers and long established technical support. And plenty of people that had very little choice three years ago - their primary choice was then to argue that 4K didn't matter and than they were perfectly happy to live in the 1080p world - now have multiple choices (including, let us not forget, the second hand market for models that were once top of the line).

And, so why would anyone buy anything from BMD now? As everyone asserts, it's its "look". But there are also people who happen to like the F35 "look". Others still like the 1D C "look". Even if one stipulates that no one ever in history liked the Sony "look" or the Panasonic "look", this notion hasn't prevented GH4, A7SII/RII, FS5, FS7 from flying off the shelves. And, guess what? People have learned how to wring more than a decent image out of GH4, FS7, A7RII and so on. They may still like BMD "look" but they no longer need the BMD "look". They have other cameras already. They have other rigs already. They have other workflows already. And, if they're in a market for the B-Cam or an A-cam replacement, they'll go to the same well. And this mass represents hundreds of thousands of shooters.

Naturally, BMD will have its fans but, to stay in this industry, BMD also needs to appeal to the masses, the masses that have largely moved onto to other brand names. And competition isn't exactly letting up either. At some point, Canon and Nikon will begin delivering the 4K DSLR's. Sony will bring out its large body high end units. Panasonic will update. Even Red is dipping its toes into an affordable, if not quite entry level, market. And lots of people love the Red "look". That is why I said that BMD has nowhere to go. It's surrounded by competition and its loyalists alone will not be enough to keep it afloat.
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To think of BMD as just 4k cameras is not really doing them justice however. The pocket camera is 1080p and yet still a popular little camera for a few main reasons that have nothing at all to do with resolution.

It really comes down to post workflow and thats where BMD still has an edge. Sure Sony and now the GH4 can shoot LOG but for the large part not a lot of other 4k cameras give you RAW or internal ProRes422 recording. Quality isn't always about resolution and many film makers do prefer dynamic range and RAW images to adjust in post without any negative impact on the quality. RAW is kind if a holy grail for many film makers. Yeah there is Magic Lantern for Canon but thats a hack and I think it will be a long time before you see a lot of 4k cameras from the big name companies offer RAW internal recording. Take the Canon C100 for example. Good camera and a lot of film makers really like it and yet it records to 24mbps AVCHD. Even if there was a new version of that camera that could handle 4k video a lot of people would love it but its gradability would still be limited compared to a RAW image from BMD.

This is BMD's key in the market right now. RAW and ProRes. Yeah Red has RAW as well but as far as I know very few to no cameras currently out there from Canon, Nikon, Sony or Panasonic offer internal RAW recording either 4k or even HD. Many of those cameras don't even have a way of externally recording 10bit.

I am intrigued by what BMD does and honestly give them a lot of credit for trying. They have done in a few years what many other cinema cameras have failed to do. I'm not even so sure they have a delivery problem. I think they have a marketing problem and spill the beans too soon because they want to have a lot of things to show off at NAB instead of waiting until the camera is ready. I work in the marketing department at a manufacturing company and typically we don't say things to our customers until we know we can deliver the product. BMD's biggest issue is they say too much too soon and they get everybody all fired up. Its like asking your dog if they want a yummy treat over and over jumping up and down with excitement and then not giving them that treat until eight hours later when you get home from work. Its much better to ask your dog if they want a treat when you get home and give it to them.

BMD should have honestly waited to announce the Ursa mini 4.6k at NAB 2016 and start delivering them the following week. They announced at NAB 2015 and now people are annoyed. They really do need to get their act together in what they market when its actually ready but outside of that I'm sure they face the same level of productions delays as many other manufacturers do. Only difference is Panasonic and Sony will not say anything at all until that product is ready to ship and be like hey surprise new camera next week. In both cases both will not ship until they are ready, only difference is BMD markets their products too early and says too much. to each their own I guess but having worked in manufacturing and most of my previous clients being manufacturing clients like John Deere, Caterpillar and Harley Davidson I tend to think waiting to market until production is ramping up is a much better solution.
 
Sure, BMD has irritated potential customers by announcing products a long time before shipping. But it also gets feedback and can refine the product before releasing it. Who knows how far along in development the Ursa Mini 4.6K was when it was announced. We know BMD had been working with BAE/Fairchild to develop the sensor, but only BMD knows how close the rest of it was to manufacture when it was unveiled. For all we know, BMD treats forums like this, as well as blogs and equipment news sites, as kind of like focus groups. It's obviously easier to make tweaks to a product before it goes to manufacture.
 
I think BM will ship out some Ursa Mini 4.6's right before NAB just so they can say it is shipping and they can announce new products. If they do not it will be a pretty pointless use of NAB. Just a bunch of film geeks asking when will we get the 4.6!!!

As far as 4:2:2 60p goes, My PX270 has it. It seems the mid/low level large sensor cameras are the ones being left out as the Fs5 has it for HD along with the upper end. I think $5,000 is the lower limit for non-BM manufacturers to give the 10bit goods. Although this too will fall...
 
DLD said:
And, so why would anyone buy anything from BMD now?
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Your post makes some great points. The one thing that popped into my head is global shutter.

I can't believe it's 2016 and we still have rolling shutter. And it's not just theoretical. It's visible. Maybe not in slow pans but in: cars passing by (or you filming while in a car), guitar strings, propellers, lightning bolts, and camera flashes. Camera makers continue to choose to capture twisted, inaccurate, half-exposed frames in glorious 6K than to capture an accurate image in 2K.

Besides Blackmagic and Digital Bolex, Sony has global shutter in the very expensive F55. But two years ago Sony has shown that they can make cheaper global-shutter sensors like the 16mm-sized IMX174 (global shutter, HD, 12 stops, 120 fps) and I think that industrial cameras that are using it sell for a thousand dollars, maybe less. Hopefully soon Sony will let its global-shutter tech percolate into other pro cameras, and hopefully other camera makers will join in the game too.

This has been your monthly plea for global shutter by combatentropy ;)
 
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